What Should Canada's Minimum Wage be?

[Guest ProudConservative]

Should the minimum wage be increased or decreased?

Edited December 6, 2019 by ProudConservative

[Shady]

I chose $9, and any rise should be tied to inflation, not some arbitrary number picked out of a hat by some politician that’s never run a business or had to make payroll.

[-1=e^ipi]

Where is the option for zero?

The minimum wage is a terrible economic policy, which pushes poorer people and teenagers out of the job market. Wages should be determined by supply and demand. Also, there is no such thing as a living wage, only a living income, which is why a universal basic income policy is better than a minimum wage policy.

[Guest ProudConservative]

I picked $5 an hour, because it's high enough for four or five people to split rent, and low enough to bring a massive amount of jobs back in Canada. $9 an hour is too high, if we want to have a thiving manufacturing sector that produces computers and televisions. Manufactures would look to the small towns, because the land is cheap, and northern communities are desperate for employment.

[Moonlight Graham]

Somewhere between 9 and 15 dollars.

A high minimum wage causes inflation.  But i'm not an economist.  As shady said, it should not be an arbitrary number

[Guest ProudConservative]

1 minute ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Somewhere between 9 and 15 dollars.

A high minimum wage causes inflation.  But i'm not an economist.  As shady said, it should not be an arbitrary number

Go ahead and vote.

[Moonlight Graham]

3 minutes ago, ProudConservative said:

Go ahead and vote.

theres no option that matches my opinion

[Guest ProudConservative]

Chinese wages have gone up. Most them of them won't work for less than $3 an hour. Our wages can be slightly higher since we don't have to ship products overseas. The difference between $5 an hour and $7.50 could be the difference between 1% of our electronics made it Canada and 25% made in Canada.

[Guest ProudConservative]

2 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

theres no option that matches my opinion

Are you closer to 9 or 15... Just pick one.

Edited December 6, 2019 by ProudConservative

[Moonlight Graham]

Just now, ProudConservative said:

Are you close to 9 or 15... Just pick one.

12.50

[Guest ProudConservative]

1 minute ago, Moonlight Graham said:

12.50

That's interesting, so no one agrees with $14 an hour. Ontario's current minimum wage.

[Guest ProudConservative]

The way I see it, it's better for our national security to have as many products made in Canada or the US, as possible. So $5 an hour, is as liberal as i'm going to go... considering the relentless competition, due to globalism.

We use to make speakers like these in the 80's before Nafta. Got to miss the good old days.

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by ProudConservative

[Guest ProudConservative]

1 hour ago, -1=e^ipi said:

Where is the option for zero?

The minimum wage is a terrible economic policy, which pushes poorer people and teenagers out of the job market. Wages should be determined by supply and demand. Also, there is no such thing as a living wage, only a living income, which is why a universal basic income policy is better than a minimum wage policy.

Just vote for $3 an hour. It's close enough.

[cannuck]

The correct option is not there:  NONE.

For a lot of reasons, some as has been mentioned that it cuts out some people from being able to work, and most of all there is no such thing as one price/wage that fits all situations, all locations, etc.

What I CAN support is the elimination of social assistance, unemployment enjoyment and pretty much every other government programme for ABLE BODIED people.  Hard to believe that a right winger such as myself can say this: but I believe there should be a GAI paid by the state to EVERY citizen, and it then gets taxed back at a flat rate on every penny of EARNINGS (NOTE: NOT speculative gains of any kind - that need to be taxed at a much, much higher rate).  We already have universal sick care, but that should be reduced to just insurance, leaving service delivery open to anyone who can provide (including government as a competitor, not a monopoly).   Do these things and all of the squabbling over who gets what is gone: EVERYONE gets it, and EVERYONE pays into with the same rate of taxation.    Now, add to that elimination of deficit spending and we will be on a new and much better path.

On edit:  people with decent incomes could forgo the GAI by simply taking the equivalent as a tax credit, reducing their tax payable dollar for dollar.

Edited December 6, 2019 by cannuck

[Guest ProudConservative]

I'm totally against the universal basic income... That just welfare for all, and it discourages work. It undermines peoples dignity when they arn't working. They feel like a drain on society. Now what I will support is a guarenteed job for everyone. I think even the disabled have the right to a job, I just can't guarentee them a luxery wage.

I rather 100% of Canadians between 18 and 65 working, than whatever the number is now. The only exception should be the extreamly disabled, but even then... I'm sure we could offer blind people jobs, and force them to work. Maybe have can use their ears, and work at a call center. I don't mind having a quota system, to guarentee a job for the extreamly disabled.

I'm a pro work guy... I don't care if people are dirt poor, everyone should be working. Now the liberals wouldn't be happy with that, because it drives down wages. They would rather have the 1% pay for everyone's welfare, so they can have a higher minimum wage. Like I said, liberals are extreamly selfish.

Edited December 6, 2019 by ProudConservative

[Rue]

20 hours ago, ProudConservative said:

Should the minimum wage be increased or decreased?

Back to original question which is defective in the sense that regional economic differences make a national minimum wage unrealistic.

[Guest ProudConservative]

2 minutes ago, Rue said:

Back to original question which is defective in the sense that regional economic differences make a national minimum wage unrealistic.

Well in general should we be increasing our minimum wages, or decreasing it?

[-1=e^ipi]

1 hour ago, ProudConservative said:

I'm totally against the universal basic income... That just welfare for all, and it discourages work. It undermines peoples dignity when they arn't working. They feel like a drain on society. Now what I will support is a guarenteed job for everyone. I think even the disabled have the right to a job, I just can't guarentee them a luxery wage.

I rather 100% of Canadians between 18 and 65 working, than whatever the number is now. The only exception should be the extreamly disabled, but even then... I'm sure we could offer blind people jobs, and force them to work. Maybe have can use their ears, and work at a call center. I don't mind having a quota system, to guarentee a job for the extreamly disabled.

I'm a pro work guy... I don't care if people are dirt poor, everyone should be working. Now the liberals wouldn't be happy with that, because it drives down wages. They would rather have the 1% pay for everyone's welfare, so they can have a higher minimum wage. Like I said, liberals are extreamly selfish.

Universal basic income, relative to many options such as guaranteed income or various welfare programs, has a lower disincentive to work because it doesn't create a welfare cliff.

 

What you propose above is to create a giant 'job' bureaucracy which will cause needless expenses. Universal basic income doesn't require a giant bureaucracy.

[Guest ProudConservative]

1 hour ago, -1=e^ipi said:

Universal basic income, relative to many options such as guaranteed income or various welfare programs, has a lower disincentive to work because it doesn't create a welfare cliff.

 

What you propose above is to create a giant 'job' bureaucracy which will cause needless expenses. Universal basic income doesn't require a giant bureaucracy.

I don't give a damn if it creats a bureacracy. Humans have the right to work. You would rather our politicians be lazy, and just hand out checks. You demorazlize people with that approach. It makes absolutely no sense why you want to get rid of the minimum wage, and have a universal basic income. You just created an incentive to have everyone sit on their ass.

You're telling the homeless, that it's too much effort, to find them a job... and taxpayers should just pay for the welfare, pay for the shelters, pay for the drug rehab facilities, pay for the prisons... because it's less complicated?

Let me say... If we hire these people at $5, maybe after a year they can work for $7 to $10 an hour... and up to $12 in 2 years.... Then we can tax them at 15% or whatever... we just widened the tax base.

Edited December 6, 2019 by ProudConservative

[-1=e^ipi]

36 minutes ago, ProudConservative said:

You just created an incentive to have everyone sit on their ass.

This is incorrect. People would still have an incentive to work as they would get more money.

  

36 minutes ago, ProudConservative said:

You're telling the homeless, that it's too much effort, to find them a job...

This is not my thinking at all. Rather, I would argue that, from an empirical utilitarian perspective, a universal basic income (combined with a relatively flat level of taxation) is optimal. As many economists, including Gregory Mankiw and Milton Friedman, have argued in the past.

  

36 minutes ago, ProudConservative said:

and taxpayers should just pay for the welfare, pay for the shelters, pay for the drug rehab facilities, pay for the prisons... because it's less complicated?

I never specified the level of universal basic income in a previous post, did I? The optimal level of UBI should be determined by weighing the increase in the disincentive to work with people's diminishing marginal utility of income.

 

36 minutes ago, ProudConservative said:

we just widened the tax base.

Tax bases are also affected by the level of taxation. Increasing taxes to pay for a giant bureaucracy reduces the tax base.

[Guest ProudConservative]

4 minutes ago, -1=e^ipi said:

ax bases are also affected by the level of taxation. Increasing taxes to pay for a giant bureaucracy reduces the tax base.

Then we need to redesign the bureacracies, and not eliminate them. Imagine if the public sector did, what we pay them to do.

Edited December 7, 2019 by ProudConservative

[Guest ProudConservative]

Ok so as it currently stands the Average minimum wage from 7 votes is $10.41. So most people want a 25% wage cut to boost job growth in Ontario. If we have a recession, we just can't afford to maintain $14 an hour, or will see a spike in youth unemployment.

Edited December 7, 2019 by ProudConservative

[jacee]

Wages required to live (food, shelter, transportation for employment, and little else) vary a bit with cost of living across the country. LIVING WAGE CANADA allows you to calculate that info for various communities, for a family of four with two full time wage earners. 

http://livingwagecanada.ca/index.php/about-living-wage/calculating-living-wage-your-community/

The bottom line for viability of a business plan must be that it provides workers with a wage that they can actually live on. A business that can't pay workers a living wage can't afford to be in business. 

Thousands of businesses with faulty business plans fail each year, and deserve to do so. Propping up shoddy businesses by keeping workers at poverty wages increases our social costs, so it's not a viable proposition. 

Cheaping out on labour costs, facilities, supplies, equipment, ingredients, or any other business costs is a sign of a business that will fail. 

 

[cannuck]

As usual, the left side view of minimum wage is that is all you can earn.  If you don't like what an employer is offering and paying, you simply go somewhere else.  If you don't like minimum wage, learn to do something.  If you want to earn more and keep your job, just show up on time, do what you are there to do, make an effort to do it better and show some responsibility and initiative and you can earn more.

Sniping at employers is the stock in trade of the left playbook, but if you/they ever got off their ass and TRIED to actually be in business - at ANY level - you/they would find out in a hurry that it is not all that simple to be in and stay in, and a hell of a lot harder to actually make a profit in early stages or most small businesses.  The stakes for an employee are negligible, you can simply leave.  The business owner is usually all in, and can NOT just walk away from his obligations.  The marketplace determines what is and what is not a fair wage, not possible for some government bureaucracy to set some fixed number that works in more than one place or so.

THAT is why I actually support some kind of GIA (at a VERY low level - that of barely surviving) and eliminating all of the welfare schemes that tend to trap people in a dead end.  Also, though, it needs flat tax on every penny earned from day one.

[dialamah]

On 12/5/2019 at 8:34 PM, ProudConservative said:

That's interesting, so no one agrees with $14 an hour. Ontario's current minimum wage.

That wasn't even a choice.