Handguns and Assault Rifles

[Spiderfish]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

The very Canadian identity is often defined as "not American", and so it goes with gun control as well.

Agree with most of your post, however if we define our gun control as "not American" then why do we assume to have the same scope of problems as America?  Seems contradictory.

[Dougie93]

Canadians of course ignore the fact that America has vast tomes of gun control laws on the books and is the country which invented gun control in the first place.

[Dougie93]

12 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

True, but it is in Canadian political and social DNA to make such comparisons to "down South" no matter what the topic is.    It is organic to Canadian media as well, if only to define and contrast content that would otherwise be very thin.    The very Canadian identity is often defined as "not American", and so it goes with gun control as well.

This being deeply ingrained in the historical memory at the Heights of Queenston.

Prior to the War of 1812 the people here called themselves Americans and like all Americans chaffed at the rule of the British Crown, despite not having participated in the Revolution.

There was no border between neither, people lived on both sides of the border, there was no citizenship, it was informal.

After the war the Americans here took up the name of the Quebecois; Canadiens, to define themselves as other than American, and they for the first time established a formal border between, your citizenship determined by which side of it you chose to live on.

[Spiderfish]

24 minutes ago, taxme said:

We all get carried away at times. It seems like so many topics can lead into talking about something that is not relevant to the main topic. As they say "chit happens sometimes". Just saying. 

Fair enough, but the point I'm making is that conflating the problems in the US with a discussion on Canadian gun control not only skews the argument, but misrepresents the scope of the problem we supposedly have in Canada.  As someone who doesn't want to see more gun laws foisted on law abiding, responsible Canadian citizens, it's important to frame the issue accurately so we don't end up with people like Zeitgeist et al., championing a more punitive and restrictive solution to a problem that we don't have.

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, Spiderfish said:

Agree with most of your post, however if we define our gun control as "not American" then why do we assume to have the same scope of problems as America?  Seems contradictory.

 

Because the American narrative and extremes are used to pursue many different agendas in Canada, seemingly because the actual facts on the ground in Canada lack the perceived impact and significance seen "south of the border".    I don't know why this is the case...maybe it is the very nature of American media dominance and consumption in Canada.

"Even in the U.S." is a favourite crutch for Canadian media to help give extra credibility to contentious issues.

Shootings in Canada tear away at the thin veneer of smug superiority so important to keeping the American barbarian ways at bay.

 

 

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Spiderfish said:

Fair enough, but the point I'm making is that conflating the problems in the US with a discussion on Canadian gun control not only skews the argument, but misrepresents the scope of the problem we supposedly have in Canada.  As someone who doesn't want to see more gun laws foisted on law abiding, responsible Canadian citizens, it's important to frame the issue accurately so we don't end up with people like Zeitgeist et al., championing a more punitive and restrictive solution to a problem that we don't have.

Culture is destiny, Canadian culture is American culture, it is simply the American culture which remains loyal to the British Crown in North America.

[Dougie93]

This is all about the Crown, the issue is that Canada is a monarchy, it's not a republic, and it's certainly not a People's Republic.

Gun Grabbing is not actually a Canadian trait, that's Americanization, the Gun Grabbers are Americanized, if they were still British North Americans, they wouldn't fear their own guns.

[Dougie93]

It's like Zeitgeist cries out "who will protect us from the Americans?!"

The real question is, are there any left here in this land, who would protect our British Crown from Zeitgeist and his People's Republic?

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Because the American narrative and extremes are used to pursue many different agendas in Canada, seemingly because the actual facts on the ground in Canada lack the perceived impact and significance seen "south of the border".    I don't know why this is the case...maybe it is the very nature of American media dominance and consumption in Canada.

"Even in the U.S." is a favourite crutch for Canadian media to help give extra credibility to contentious issues.

Shootings in Canada tear away at the thin veneer of smug superiority so important to keeping the American barbarian ways at bay.

 

 

America is just a frame of reference that clearly illustrates what happens when the government can no longer ensure the safety of its citizens.  Canada isn’t the shining example of a country that ensures the safety of its citizens.  Some European countries come close.  What concerns many Canadians is that we are seeing more shootings in Canada and more firearms in circulation in places where there is little hunting or need for personal protection, cities.  If this trend continues then the cities here will become places where personal safety is a real worry, and no doubt more guns will be marketed as the solution.  It’s a vicious circle wherein violence begets fear which begets greater gun proliferation.  That this is even being discussed in Canada illustrates how far down that dangerous road we have traveled.

Indeed I do not want our society to have the level of social problems and violence seen in the US.  If some noses are out of joint because civilians can’t buy weapons whose sole or main purpose is killing people or weapons that make killing quick and easy, too fucking bad.   

 

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

It's like Zeitgeist cries out "who will protect us from the Americans?!"

The real question is, are there any left here in this land, who would protect our British Crown from Zeitgeist and his People's Republic?

Another thing, figure out whether you want to be British or American, because you clearly can’t stand Canada.  I’m a proud Canadian and have no interest in being American or Chinese.  Canadians who respect Canada as a country should be the ones setting policy.for it, not the ones who wish to undermine or destroy it.  You wish to destroy it.  In the end I can’t respect your service because you don’t understand who you served or why.  It wasn’t about giving your life to a woman in another country who we invite over for ceremony and put on our currency.  It was about protecting Canada and Canadians, period.  Nothing you could ever say would ever convince me otherwise.  Your comments on Canada are totally unpatriotic.  Not my kind of Canadian soldier.  

Edited August 9, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

17 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

America is just a frame of reference that clearly illustrates what happens when the government can no longer ensure the safety of its citizens.  Canada isn’t the shining example of a country that ensures the safety of its citizens.  Some European countries come close.  What concerns many Canadians is that we are seeing more shootings in Canada and more firearms in circulation in places where there is little hunting or need for personal protection, cities.  If this trend continues then the cities here will become places where personal safety is a real worry, and no doubt more guns will be marketed as the solution.  It’s a vicious circle wherein violence begets fear which begets greater gun proliferation.  That this is even being discussed in Canada illustrates how far down that dangerous road we have traveled.

 

It's already a problem in Canada regardless of what is happening in the United States, where firearms related homicides have been trending down even as gun possession per capita has increased.    So if you want to gaze across the border so much about guns, guns, guns...the data correlates lower gun homicide rates with more guns, with other factors in play as well.

Canadians already own lots of guns for lots of reasons...going down that road long ago.    No need to hype the story with the American narrative (but I know it will continue in true Canadian fashion).

 

Quote

Indeed I do not want our society to have the level of social problems and violence seen in the US.  If some noses are out of joint because civilians can’t buy weapons whose sole or main purpose is killing people or weapons that make killing quick and easy, too fucking bad.   

 

You get one vote just like everyone else.....good luck with banning & grabbing Canadian guns.

[Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

It's already a problem in Canada regardless of what is happening in the United States, where firearms related homicides have been trending down even as gun possession per capita has increased.    So if you want to gaze across the border so much about guns, guns, guns...the data correlates lower gun homicide rates with more guns, with other factors in play as well.

Canadians already own lots of guns for lots of reasons...going down that road long ago.    No need to hype the story with the American narrative (but I know it will continue in true Canadian fashion).

 

 

You get one vote just like everyone else.....good luck with banning & grabbing Canadian guns.

I actually think that stricter gun control would play well with the Canadian electorate.  We don’t have that 2nd Amendment religion.  

[Dougie93]

38 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Another thing, figure out whether you want to be British or American, because you clearly can’t stand Canada.  I’m a proud Canadian and have no interest in being American or Chinese.  Canadians who respect Canada as a country should be the ones setting policy.for it, not the ones who wish to undermine or destroy it.  You wish to destroy it.  In the end I can’t respect your service because you don’t understand who you served or why.  It wasn’t about giving your life to a woman in another country who we invite over for ceremony and put on our currency.  It was about protecting Canada and Canadians, period.  Nothing you could ever say would ever convince me otherwise.  Your comments on Canada are totally unpatriotic.  Not my kind of Canadian soldier.  

Thankfully, as I said, Canada is not a republic, there is no public rule in Canada, thus I do not answer to the public, to include you, in a monarchy, I only owe fealty to the monarch.

[Dougie93]

Furthermore, as I said before, my British half and my American half are not in conflict;

United Kingdom - United States Security Agreement,  which Canada is signatory to.

Brothers in arms, since 6 April 1917.

God bless America, God save the Queen.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

You get one vote just like everyone else.....good luck with banning & grabbing Canadian guns.

The vote is only to select an MP as representative.

That MP then must swear this oath to take their seat;

I, [name], do swear, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.

Thus while a constitutional monarchy is representative, there is no res publica in Canada.

This is why the RCMP is charged with deciding what guns are banned or not, under their mandate to "maintain peace and order" in the name of the Queen.

[Dougie93]

This is also why, contrary to Zeitgeist's fundamentally republican assertion, the Canadian Forces are not actually charged with protecting Canadians per se.

You only enjoy the protection of the British Crown where you are loyal to the British Crown.

Thus there is no Posse Comitatus in Canada.

Which means the Canadian Forces may use military force against Canadians as necessary as directed by the lawful chain of command under the authority of the CinC.

Though this requires an Order in Council in Aid to the Civil Power, none the less, that Civil Power still represents the Queen.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Dougie93

[Yzermandius19]

2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Thankfully, as I said, Canada is not a republic, there is no public rule in Canada, thus I do not answer to the public, to include you, in a monarchy, I only owe fealty to the monarch.

I find it hilarious that someone telling people to go live in America, because of their loyalty to the Monarch over the state, thinks Canada is like America and is a republic that answers to We The People. If you want to live in a country that's all into this "We The People" thing, it is you who should move to America, because that country is not Canada, that country is America. 

If anyone is Anti-Canadian seeking to Americanize Canada, it's folks like Zeitgeist. Canada is a Monarchy, not a Republic, it's time Zeitgeist got used to it and stopped pretending Canada is actually America.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

I find it hilarious that someone telling people to go live in America, because of their loyalty to the Monarch over the state, thinks Canada is like America and is a republic that answers to We The People. If you want to live in a country that's all into this "We The People" thing, it is you who should move to America, because that country is not Canada, that country is America. 

If anyone is Anti-Canadian seeking to Americanize Canada, it's Zeitgeist.

In fairness, Canadians are not taught civics in school, nor are they taught the central narrative of their history. 

Also, in terms of his assertion that one is unpatriotic to advocate against Canada which is simply Confederation, right from the beginning MP's themselves were doing it.

In 1867, the Hon. Joseph Howe,  the Howe family being United Empire Loyalist Puritans from Massachusetts, was elected MP for Hants County Nova Scotia and took the oath of allegiance to the Crown, despite the fact that he was vehemently opposed to and  vociferously advocated for the immediate repeal of Confederation.  He eventually became the Leftenant Governor of Nova Scotia.

 

[Yzermandius19]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

In fairness, Canadians are not taught civics in school, nor are they taught the central narrative of their history. 

Also, in terms of his assertion that one is unpatriotic to advocate against Canada which is simply Confederation, right from the beginning MP's themselves were doing it.

In 1867, the Hon. Joseph Howe,  the Howe family being United Empire Loyalist Puritans from Massachusetts, was elected MP for Hants County Nova Scotia and took the oath of allegiance to the Crown, despite the fact that he was vehemently opposed to and  vociferously advocated for the immediate repeal of Confederation.  He eventually became the Leftenant Governor of Nova Scotia.

 

I learned civics in school, it was a compulsory credit for high school graduation too. I imagine most just don't pay attention, and it goes right in one ear and out the other.

I was taught the central narrative of our history, but the teacher's unions simply pretended another narrative is actually the central narrative while they did that, and they discredit the actual central narrative in favor of that propaganda at every turn.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

I learned civics in school, I imagine most just don't pay attention, and it goes right in one ear and out the other. They are taught the central narrative of their history, but the schools pretend another narrative is actually the central narrative while they do it, and they discredit the central narrative in favor of that propaganda at every turn.

Well they submerge everything in Social History, Eskimo Communism basically,

Zeitgeist does it too, any time the central narrative is invoked, he diverts into some Social History canard which is besides the point  to muddy the waters.

That's what the teachers unions do to.

[Yzermandius19]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Well they submerge everything in Social History, Eskimo Communism basically,

Zeitgeist does it too, any time the central narrative is invoked, he diverts into some Social History canard which is besides the point  to muddy the waters.

That's what the teachers unions do to.

Absolutely, they 100% do that. When they do invoke the central narrative, it's simply to divert to Social History and attempt to discredit that central narrative in the process.

Teacher's unions, it's what they do. Eskimo Communists gonna peddle Eskimo Communism, who knew?

Edited August 9, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Absolutely, they 100% do that. When they do invoke the central narrative, it's simply to divert to Social History and attempt to discredit that central narrative in the process.

Teacher's unions, it's what they do. Eskimo Communists gonna peddle Eskimo Communism, who knew?

And make no mistake, this is very deliberate, it is an ideological agenda, and it does emanate from a place, which is the education faculty at the University of Toronto.

Otherwise known as OISE.

My mother is an alumnus. 

I know the Eskimo Communists well, I was raised by one.

[Yzermandius19]

3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

And make no mistake, this is very deliberate, it is an ideological agenda, and it does emanate from a place, which is the education faculty at the University of Toronto.

Otherwise known as OISE.

My mother is an alumnus. 

I know the Eskimo Communists well, I was raised by one.

Me too, raised by Eskimo Communists, with a libertarian streak though, which is how I slowly sour them on the Eskimo Communism they raised me on. Diabolical.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Me too, raised by Eskimo Communists with a libertarian streak, which is how I slowly sour them on the Eskimo Communism they raised me on. Diabolical.

My father was the American libertarian, my mother is the authoritarian, not to me, as a Gen X Latchkey Kid, I had free rein, but my mother is authoritarian in terms of state intervention.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Dougie93

[Yzermandius19]

7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

My father was the American libertarian, my mother is the authoritarian, though to me, as a Gen X Latchkey Kid, I had free reign, but my mother is authoritarian in terms of state intervention.

Still got some work too on convincing them that gun control is farcical, I find drawing a parallel between the war on drugs, which they despise, and gun control, which they support, helps them see the flaws in the logic of the latter position. I should start calling it "the war on guns" to drive home the point.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Yzermandius19