Handguns and Assault Rifles

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

A great leader puts great people in roles where they excel and doesn't micro-manage. They just manage to follow the best advice given.

Trump had an advantage over the rest of us by growing up in that kind of environment.

Relax, it wasn't a critique, I am aware that the POTUS delegates far more than the public believes, and I don't have a problem with that, because that's what President means.

In terms of Trump's role as Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces, I have no complaints there neither.

 

[Dougie93]

Anyways, back to the M14.

Dominion Arms SOCOM 18 conversion.

 

[Dougie93]

Now, bear in mind, these are Norinco Chinese made clones of the M14, so they are not actually as refined as the real deal American made, they are a little rough around the edges.

But the real deal American M14's are like $3000.00, the Chinese copy is a steal for $600.00 

And again; repetition automatic 7.62 x 51mm NATO Battle Rifle, Non-Restricted.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Spiderfish said:

So....I'll repeat my previous question to you since you apparently conveniently missed it...

 

Would you ban this? It's not black and it's a very popular hunting rifle.

So a slight of hand, looks more innocent than it is?  I won't get into all of the options out there for hunting, some of which have magazines and automatic shots.  That's not the point and I'm not a gun enthusiast.  Let's put it this way: Is it sport to take out a deer with a machine gun?  The shotgun is damaging enough.  I remember finding shotgun bullets on my grandparents' farm as a kid, finding all the pellets inside, picking them out of targets.  A single or double barrel manual load rifle or shotgun is as much as anyone should need, and as Dougie mentioned, shotguns are very damaging and not necessary for taking down small game.  It comes down to this: Handguns, semi/fully automatic weapons, assault rifles, machine guns, or any variation therein, have a primary purpose, killing people.  Having any sort of legal pipeline to such weaponry puts them in general circulation. 

I recognize that there are guys who like to take the high-powered stuff to the range or collect them, but is the risk of misuse worth satisfying the responsible collectors/gamers' hobbies?  We can provide virtual reality experiences for that.  Besides, if you can't shoot open air targets with a hunting rifle, you're probably leaning too heavily on the tech and aren't much of a shot.  And don't think I haven't been on the range.  I also had a pellet gun as a kid.  We got hurt.  Great.  Kids can use Nerfs. 

We can point to gangs and black marketers as the culprits only so far because the black market gets them from legal owners and the gangs get them off the black market.  We know the mantra:  "Guns don't kill people; people kill people."  It's trotted out after every mass murder and call for gun control.  "Don't let insane people have guns" (assuming we know who they are).  "Have severe consequences for people who own illegal guns" (assuming we know who they are).  We can do all of that and infiltrate the gangs, and still, we will come up short.  Why?  Because pretty much every mass murderer either bought the guns legally or got them from people who got them legally.  Make them illegal and unavailable.  Have a gun amnesty and buy back program for existing owners.  Have severe consequences for illegal gun owners.  Until this kind of gun control is implemented, good luck turning around the gun violence.    

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

So a slight of hand, looks more innocent than it is? 

Indeed, not a "Black Rifle" so not scary, but actually the same as an AR15.  Mini-14 .223 Remington semi-automatic carbine.

[Dougie93]

It's called the Mini-14 by the way, because it is the mini version of the M14
 

The Non-Restricted Norinco M305 M14 clone, is a clone of the Mini-14's much bigger and meaner bother.

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I recognize that there are guys who like to take the high-powered stuff to the range or collect them, but is the risk of misuse worth satisfying the responsible collectors/gamers' hobbies?

Defending and upholding the Glorious Revolution of 1688 and associated Bill of Rights 1689 is no hobby, it is my sworn duty unto death as necessary so help me Lord.

Lawful possession and occupation of my property and defence of my wife and life is no game, though I defend the Queen's Peace as well therein.

My arms are not a collection, I simply exercise the fullest extent of my liberties,  right to bear arms in allowance of the law, my privilege to serve Elizabeth Windsor.

God and my right.  No fears on earth.  Live free or die.

[Zeitgeist]

34 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Defending and upholding the Glorious Revolution of 1688 and associated Bill of Rights 1689 is no hobby, it is my sworn duty unto death as necessary so help me Lord.

Lawful possession and occupation of my property and defence of my wife and life is no game, though I defend the Queen's Peace as well therein.

My arms are not a collection, I simply exercise the fullest extent of my liberties,  right to bear arms in allowance of the law, my privilege to serve Elizabeth Windsor.

God and my right.  No fears on earth.  Live free or die.

Yeah that's the rhetoric.  "From my cold dead hands..."

[Dougie93]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Yeah that's the rhetoric.  "From my cold dead hands..."

No, that's the American doctrine, when in the House of Windsor, as I already said, I resist Her Majesties enemies and defend the Queen's Peace.

I am landed gentry, a privileged elite, Her Majesty defends the right and I defend Her Majesty.

 

[Argus]

8 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

But that’s incorrect.  Canada has a better immigration system than the US lottery.  We use a point system based on skills and country needs. 

And yet US immigrants perform better than American born people while Canadian immigrants perform worse than Canadian born.

And most of the shooting going on in Toronto is coming from immigrant/ethnic groups, mostly black, mostly Jamaican and Somalian.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Argus

[WestCanMan]

3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Anyways, back to the M14.

Dominion Arms SOCOM 18 conversion.

 

Just a newer version of my old friend, the FN. Lova zat rafelle!

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

It's called the Mini-14 by the way, because it is the mini version of the M14
 

The Non-Restricted Norinco M305 M14 clone, is a clone of the Mini-14's much bigger and meaner bother.

Norinco is from China isn't it? Are they any good?

 

[Spiderfish]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

So a slight of hand, looks more innocent than it is?

That's exactly my point...without any formal definition of what an "assault weapon" is, the decision on what should be banned is arbitrary and based on emotion, not objective rationale.  You said anything other than hunting rifles should be banned.  As I mentioned, the Mini14 is a very popular hunting rifle... it's also been used for more nefarious purposes.  Do you think all semi-automatic rifles should be banned?  Black guns?   Maybe certain calibers?

Then there's also the question surrounding who makes the decision.  The Ruger 10/22  is one of the most popular rimfire rifles ever produced, it has been sold for decades in Canada.  Practically every farmer West of the Man/Ont. border owns at least one of these rifles.  In July 2016 the RCMP issued an internal memo which basically reclassified magazines for these rifles as prohibited.  Without any prior warning or notice, this memo arbitrarily turned legal, law abiding owners of 1.2 million of these magazines into criminals overnight, with the Criminal Code penalty for possession of such a prohibited device up to five years in prison.  It's one thing for Government to create laws deciding what we can and can't own, but do we really want the RCMP deciding our laws and arbitrarily determining what we can possess and what we can't? 

As I mentioned in my previous post, you are comfortable with a handgun and rifle ban because you obviously don’t own any.  Agreeing to arbitrarily take away the possessions, rights and privileges  from other people to show that something is being done is easy, but incredibly short-sighted and naive.

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

No, that's the American doctrine, when in the House of Windsor, as I already said, I resist Her Majesties enemies and defend the Queen's Peace.

I am landed gentry, a privileged elite, Her Majesty defends the right and I defend Her Majesty.

 

Lol. Were you wearing a white, mustard-stained tank top and crushing a beer can when you said that?

 

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Lol. Were you wearing a white, mustard-stained tank top and crushing a beer can when you said that?

 

Nope, shorts and flip flops, I'm on my deck here, enjoying another truly glorious sunset and big sky all around.

[WestCanMan]

8 minutes ago, Spiderfish said:

That's exactly my point...without any formal definition of what an "assault weapon" is, the decision on what should be banned is arbitrary and based on emotion, not objective rationale.  You said anything other than hunting rifles should be banned.  As I mentioned, the Mini14 is a very popular hunting rifle... it's also been used for more nefarious purposes.  Do you think all semi-automatic rifles should be banned?  Black guns?   Maybe certain calibers?

Then there's also the question surrounding who makes the decision.  The Ruger 10/22  is one of the most popular rimfire rifles ever produced, it has been sold for decades in Canada.  Practically every farmer West of the Man/Ont. border owns at least one of these rifles.  In July 2016 the RCMP issued an internal memo which basically reclassified magazines for these rifles as prohibited.  Without any prior warning or notice, this memo arbitrarily turned legal, law abiding owners of 1.2 million of these magazines into criminals overnight, with the Criminal Code penalty for possession of such a prohibited device up to five years in prison.  It's one thing for Government to create laws deciding what we can and can't own, but do we really want the RCMP deciding our laws and arbitrarily determining what we can possess and what we can't? 

As I mentioned in my previous post, you are comfortable with a handgun and rifle ban because you obviously don’t own any.  Agreeing to arbitrarily take away the possessions, rights and privileges  from other people to show that something is being done is easy, but incredibly short-sighted and naive.

The reasoning behind the ban on Ruger mags was because they also fit on a Ruger pistol. It makes perfect sense to me. I have a Ruger 10/22 and I can deal with the 10-round mags. It just pissed me off that the price of the 10s went from around $12 ea to $45 ea as soon as the big mags were banned. 

There are some things that don't make sense though. The Tavor x-95 is a semi-auto bullpup chambered for NATO 5.56 and it's non-restricted. IMO that's a bit extreme. It's not very useful for hunting big game because of the short barrel, the bullpup is designed for close to medium-range combat. It's an urban assault special.

I'm against gun control but even I'd ban that one.

[Spiderfish]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Is it sport to take out a deer with a machine gun?  The shotgun is damaging enough.  I remember finding shotgun bullets on my grandparents' farm as a kid, finding all the pellets inside, picking them out of targets.

Since you mentioned you are not a gun enthusiast and are obviously ignorant about the subject...a semi-automatic is not a machine gun.  "Machine guns" or automatic weapons are prohibited and illegal in Canada and always have been. 

Also, most people don't hunt deer with a shotgun, and it's inhumane and illegal to shoot a deer with bird shot (shotgun bullets??)

You obviously do not have enough knowledge about hunting or proper use of guns to even form a cogent opinion, you certainly have no right demanding an arbitrary ban on something you know nothing about.  Educate yourself then maybe you'll be taken seriously.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Spiderfish

[Zeitgeist]

30 minutes ago, Spiderfish said:

That's exactly my point...without any formal definition of what an "assault weapon" is, the decision on what should be banned is arbitrary and based on emotion, not objective rationale.  You said anything other than hunting rifles should be banned.  As I mentioned, the Mini14 is a very popular hunting rifle... it's also been used for more nefarious purposes.  Do you think all semi-automatic rifles should be banned?  Black guns?   Maybe certain calibers?

Then there's also the question surrounding who makes the decision.  The Ruger 10/22  is one of the most popular rimfire rifles ever produced, it has been sold for decades in Canada.  Practically every farmer West of the Man/Ont. border owns at least one of these rifles.  In July 2016 the RCMP issued an internal memo which basically reclassified magazines for these rifles as prohibited.  Without any prior warning or notice, this memo arbitrarily turned legal, law abiding owners of 1.2 million of these magazines into criminals overnight, with the Criminal Code penalty for possession of such a prohibited device up to five years in prison.  It's one thing for Government to create laws deciding what we can and can't own, but do we really want the RCMP deciding our laws and arbitrarily determining what we can possess and what we can't? 

As I mentioned in my previous post, you are comfortable with a handgun and rifle ban because you obviously don’t own any.  Agreeing to arbitrarily take away the possessions, rights and privileges  from other people to show that something is being done is easy, but incredibly short-sighted and naive.

I’m aware that context is important for these policies.  A western farmer who has grown up with hunting firearms is quite a different beast from a 21 year old gang-banger whose first weapon is a semi-automatic handgun bought from a neighbor’s cousin.  Obviously in the case of the magazine you mentioned, there has to be some grandfathering of these things.  It can’t always happen overnight, but for some weapons I think it can.  

I do have some concern about the idea of the firearm for security of person and property, not so much in remote areas but in cities.  That’s why I think going forward the only firearms that should be available are manual load hunting rifles.  Nothing semi or fully automatic should be available anymore and handguns should also be banned.  Yes someone can still commit murder with such a weapon, but it would be harder and take longer.  

By machine gun I mean automatic multiple shot.  It isn’t as complex as you make it seem and I don’t think those distinctions make substantive differences to the argument.  

Edited August 7, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I'm against gun control but even I'd ban that one.

SMDH

[Spiderfish]

10 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

The reasoning behind the ban on Ruger mags was because they also fit on a Ruger pistol. It makes perfect sense to me. I have a Ruger 10/22 and I can deal with the 10-round mags. It just pissed me off that the price of the 10s went from around $12 ea to $45 ea as soon as the big mags were banned. 

So why not prohibit the handgun that the  magazine fits into. The Ruger Charger is new....the 10/22 and magazines have been around for decades.  Prohibiting the Ruger Charger would affect maybe 5 people in Canada, banning the magazine affects 10s of thousands.

Also, since when is it a good idea for the RCMP to re-interpret law and affect the ban of a legal possession?  I thought they were supposed to enforce law, not interpret or amend it.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Spiderfish

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Spiderfish said:

Also, since when is it a good idea for the RCMP to reinterpret law and affect the ban of a legal possession?  I thought they were supposed to enforce law, not interpret it.

"The RCMP's mandate, as outlined in section 18 of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, is multi-faceted. It includes preventing and investigating crime; maintaining peace and order; enforcing laws; contributing to national security; ensuring the safety of state officials, visiting dignitaries and foreign missions; and providing vital operational support services to other police and law enforcement agencies within Canada and abroad."

Canada is a monarchy, the RCMP is what is called a "Gendarmerie", which is paramilitary and more than simply a law enforcement agency.

[Zeitgeist]

11 minutes ago, Spiderfish said:

Since you mentioned you are not a gun enthusiast and are obviously ignorant about the subject...a semi-automatic is not a machine gun.  "Machine guns" or automatic weapons are prohibited and illegal in Canada and always have been. 

Also, most people don't hunt deer with a shotgun, and it's inhumane and illegal to shoot a deer with bird shot (shotgun bullets??)

You obviously do not have enough knowledge about hunting or proper use of guns to even form a cogent opinion, you certainly have no right demanding an arbitrary ban on something you know nothing about.  Educate yourself then maybe you'll be taken seriously.

You’re wrong though.  As Dougie explained, we have a “battle rifle” that can fire off multiple rounds.  Even if it’s semi-automatic and you have to pull an assisted trigger for every shot, hunters don’t need that.  

[Spiderfish]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

You’re wrong though.  As Dougie explained, we have a “battle rifle” that can fire off multiple rounds.  Even if it’s semi-automatic and you have to pull an assisted trigger for every shot, hunters don’t need that.  

...says someone who doesn't hunt, and thinks deer hunters should be using a 12 gauge and bird shot.  You'll excuse me if I don't take your extensive knowledge as the final authority. 

Any high powered rifle can be used as a "battle rifle" (although, again... I can't seem to find an official definition for that term.)  A single shot Remington VS 700 is an incredibly accurate and reliable hunting rifle, it's also basically a civilian version of the M24 sniper rifle.  The amount of carnage that could potentially be inflicted with one of these in the right hands is devastating.  You don't need a large magazine when you're half a kilometer away and no one knows where you are.  But it's just a single-shot hunting rifle.  Should it be banned as well?

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Spiderfish said:

...says someone who doesn't hunt, and thinks deer hunters should be using a 12 gauge and bird shot.  You'll excuse me if I don't take your extensive knowledge as the final authority.  

There is no prohibition against hunting deer with a shotgun, and shotgun shells come in different flavors, to include 00 Buck, otherwise known as buckshot, because it is for hunting deer. 

[Dougie93]

22 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re wrong though.  As Dougie explained, we have a “battle rifle” that can fire off multiple rounds.  Even if it’s semi-automatic and you have to pull an assisted trigger for every shot, hunters don’t need that.  

Machine Gun generally refers to the sustained fire belt fed "fully automatic" only crew served weapon, such as the FN MAG 58 or C6 as it is designated in the CF.

The Battle Rifle fires the same ammunition, repetition fire, or "semi-automatic", from a staggered box magazine, carried by a rifleman.