Mark Norman Case.

[Dougie93]

He will never be CDS, the Cons do not like a boat rocker anymore than the Liberals do.

Norman will be shuffled off to nowhere, even if they can't fire him, he has revealed himself to be a mutineer.

 

 

[Army Guy]

I hope your right Argus , but I think Dougies  statement is going to ring true....The new Tories don't want any baggage or a name that is associated with baggage. But if they can't give him the CDS position he should at least get a huge payout for his efforts..

[Dougie93]

I never liked Norman anyways, he's the one who banned drinking in the Navy because a couple sailors got arrested for drunk and disorderly in Florida.

He's no different than Vance or any other of these careerists, he's an SJW CYA Cake Eater officer-politician, make no mistake.

You don't get to be VCDS unless you suck a whole lotta liberal political correctness cock.

They may have gone after one of their own, but that doen't mean he's not a cocksucker who wouldn't throw any of us under the bus without a second thought.

Do not trust a Cake Eater, they're all infected with the careerist disease.

They're all liberal apparatchiks by default, because they all suckle at the liberal teat and slurp from the liberal trough.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Dougie93

[Army Guy]

Navy must have gone through some serious DT's...Screw the Navy, while I was only dreaming of beer and full time field pay, sitting in my trench with freezing rain running down the crack of my ass,  the navy had been sucking back suds, and sea pay for years before the Army wise up...Yes I was jealous, and never passed up a chance to kick the crap out of some Navy Wog….

I guess I was a little more forgiving than you were, when it comes to officers.

[Dougie93]

17 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Navy must have gone through some serious DT's...Screw the Navy, while I was only dreaming of beer and full time field pay, sitting in my trench with freezing rain running down the crack of my ass,  the navy had been sucking back suds, and sea pay for years before the Army wise up...Yes I was jealous, and never passed up a chance to kick the crap out of some Navy Wog….

I guess I was a little more forgiving than you were, when it comes to officers.

I loved the field, I never had any problem in the freezing rain, I frankly mastered the art of being  a happy warrior in any climate, season or terrain.

I only worked with the navy a couple times, but it was pretty fun actually, they treated me well.

I was never jealous of anybody, I didn't want gravy, all I wanted was to be in the field and away from the whistleheads and chickenshit.

I obeyed the officers, I even respected them, but I never trusted them, they are not our buddies, they are the officers, we are the men.

 

[Army Guy]

Come on Dougie you can't tell me you did not have that moment when things got really tough that you asked yourself WTF am I doing ,I  could be an air wog living in some hotel room eating restaurant food, a chocolate mint on your pillow....and room service or navy guy with 3 hot meals and a warm bunk …. 

[Dougie93]

Just now, Army Guy said:

Come on Dougie you can't tell me you did not have that moment when things got really tough that you asked yourself WTF am I doing ,I  could be an air wog living in some hotel room eating restaurant food, a chocolate mint on your pillow....and room service or navy guy with 3 hot meals and a warm bunk …. 

Never.  I joined to get away from all that, I joined to be a soldier's soldier,  I loved the field, whether that be Hohenfels or Petawawa, I embraced the suck, and then learned to love it.

If it ain't rainin', we ain't trainin', only the weak wear rain jackets, although Danner boots are  the cats ass.

[Dougie93]

Like on my ISCC final ex, we went nine days with no sleep to speak of, section attacks, all day, dig a defensive, then patrols, all night, wash rinse repeat.

Only 14 of us passed the course in the end, when they called Endex, that was one of the greatest moments of my life.

I could take it, I could take the pounding, and I could have fun doing it, that's the key, happy warrior.

It was the chickenshit that brought me down, defaulters, confinement, detention, etc.  Although I endured it without letting them see me sweat, bet dat.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Dougie93

[betsy]

18 hours ago, Rue said:

Well we know why the Liberals bailed. A trial would have shown  the Liberal government has hidden documents from Norman and the courts-to be specific , suppressed and continue to suppress  evidence that would have been used to  exonerate the admiral and show the move to Irving shipyards was purely political in motivation and lacked merit.

 

 

 

It's also has very much to do with the timing of the trial. 

Imagine having that thing going - something so similar with SNC-Lavalin, during campaign time! 

 

Take note, the charges have not been dropped.   It's been stayed - which means it can be reopened within a year.   Imagine that like the sword of Damocles hanging over Norman's head for a year?

  Singling out Norman (from 73 names mentioned), and having him go through all that just because of doing his job (as explained by Jason Kenney, who was involved with this affair), it's like someon in the PMO/Privy Council, is being so petty waging a vendetta against Norman.

Also, what's Brison's role in this?  He quit politics for a good reason, I bet!

 

I bet Norman will talk - at a very opportune timing, too!  Keep it close to election time. I hope so.  It's for the best interest of Canada!

Edited May 10, 2019 by betsy

[Rue]

16 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

He will never be CDS, the Cons do not like a boat rocker anymore than the Liberals do.

Norman will be shuffled off to nowhere, even if they can't fire him, he has revealed himself to be a mutineer.

 

 

How is he a mutineer? What law did he betray or break?  Even if he communicated with a company that thought it had a shipbuilding contact, that was not illegal. In Canadian law for  a breach of trust to be proven, the Crown would have to have proven beyond reasonable doubt Norman  intended to derive a personal benefit for himself from his disclosure. The Crown had no evidence of that. The government's decision to commence a case was based on anger not law.

 Hey   I respect the fact you served so your perspective is  important D93....but let's be clear as to what the law says. Let's also be crystal clear this government direcly interfered in this case by refusing to disclose evidence it had and was required to disclose. This coming from a government that awarded Kadr 10 million because they said the proceedings at Guantanamo Bay did not properly disclose evidence against Kadr to Kadr's defence lawyers. Whether its Hua Weo and Lavalin or this case, this government never fails to contradict itself.

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Rue

[Rue]

4 hours ago, betsy said:

 

It's also has very much to do with the timing of the trial. 

Imagine having that thing going - something so similar with SNC-Lavalin, during campaign time! 

 

Take note, the charges have not been dropped.   It's been stayed - which means it can be reopened within a year.   Imagine that like the sword of Damocles hanging over Norman's head for a year?

  Singling out Norman (from 73 names mentioned), and having him go through all that just because of doing his job (as explained by Jason Kenney, who was involved with this affair), it's like someon in the PMO/Privy Council, is being so petty waging a vendetta against Norman.

Also, what's Brison's role in this?  He quit politics for a good reason, I bet!

 

I bet Norman will talk - at a very opportune timing, too!  Keep it close to election time. I hope so.  It's for the best interest of Canada!

Yes timing and yes Brison ran. In regards to reopening the trial....yes in theory they can Betsy but  in practicality they can not. If they decided a  year later to re-open that would cause a Charter challenge for unnecessary delay and most probably get thrown out.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Rue

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

How is he a mutineer? What law did he betray or break?  Even if he communicated with a company that thought it had a shipbuilding contact, that was not illegal. In Canadian law for  a breach of trust to be proven, the Crown would have to have proven beyond reasonable doubt Norman  intended to derive a personal benefit for himself from his disclosure. The Crown had no evidence of that. The government's decision to commence a case was based on anger not law.

 Hey   I respect the fact you served so your perspective is  important D93....but let's be clear as to what the law says. Let's also be crystal clear this government direcly interfered in this case by refusing to disclose evidence it had and was required to disclose. This coming from a government that awarded Kadr 10 million because they said the proceedings at Guantanamo Bay did not properly disclose evidence against Kadr to Kadr's defence lawyers. Whether its Hua Weo and Lavalin or this case, this government never fails to contradict itself.

 

Mutiny is simply to rebel against the chain of command, in terms of law,  he's under the Queen's Regulations & Orders, under military law he could be charged with several offences.

Military law, the QR&0's,  is nothing like the civilian justice system, in the military,  they can charge you just for looking at them funny, make no mistake.

But even if they don't charge you, the other way they get you is by derailing your career and sticking you in some nowhere job.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Dougie93

[Rue]

9 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Mutiny is simply to rebel against the chain of command, in terms of law,  he's under the Queen's Regulations & Orders, under military law he could be charged with several offences.

Military law, the QR&0's,  is nothing like the civilian justice system, in the military,  they can charge you just for looking at them funny, make no mistake.

Agreed if you are now talking military court martial procedures and laws. Thought you were referring to the criminal charges the current government laid.  Dougie what ever happened to you I defer to you. I can see in several posts you had a number done on you.  Respect.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Rue said:

Agreed if you are now talking military court martial procedures and laws. Thought you were referring to the criminal charges the current government laid.  Dougie what ever happened to you I defer to you. I can see in several posts you had a number done on you.  Respect.

Respect to you as well,  to be clear tho,  mutiny doesn't have to be a crime, just to buck your commander is mutinous, even they didn't come after you with the QR&O's, there are many other ways for your commander to come after you.

And it's Vance,  I've had him after me when he was Major Vance, and he is ruthless and rattlesnake mean and he never forgets a slight.

Vance could have stopped this whole thing before it got started, but like I say, I think Norman bucked him, Vance took it as mutinous, and that's why he through Norman under the bus.

[Dougie93]

Also,  just to be clear, I'm not saying Vance was a bad infantry officer, he was an excellent infantry officer,  he knows his shit up and down.

I'm just talking office politics here.

It's not a question of Norman good Vance bad, I'm quite sure Norman has thrown plenty guys under the bus too.

It's a harsh realm in the military.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Dougie93

[Argus]

17 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I hope your right Argus , but I think Dougies  statement is going to ring true....The new Tories don't want any baggage or a name that is associated with baggage. But if they can't give him the CDS position he should at least get a huge payout for his efforts..

Three of them have come out publicly on his side; Kenney, O'Toole and Mackay. I don't see that he brings a lot of baggage to them.

[Dougie93]

The Cons are just as corrupt and incompetent as the Liberals.

Confederation itself is corrupt,  the corruption and incompetence is endemic.

Thus nobody likes a whistleblower, being partisan hacks they will pounce on the other party, but they don't want a whistleblower in their ranks.

[WestCanMan]

13 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Navy must have gone through some serious DT's...Screw the Navy, while I was only dreaming of beer and full time field pay, sitting in my trench with freezing rain running down the crack of my ass,  the navy had been sucking back suds, and sea pay for years before the Army wise up...Yes I was jealous, and never passed up a chance to kick the crap out of some Navy Wog….

I guess I was a little more forgiving than you were, when it comes to officers.

Beer lol. I was in the navy back in the late '80s.

I drank less than 6 beers in 3 years at sea, and I drank a lot back then. When we were at sea we were doing a 1 in 3 watch system so we did 8 hrs a day Mon - Sat, noon-4 on Sunday, plus 8 hrs a day on watch, plus seamanship evolutions like refuelling at sea, tow ex, etc (always after hrs), plus training drills like man overboard,  action stations, (always after hrs). 

Technically you could have a beer if you were 8 hrs away from being on watch or at work but that could never be the case.

Here's a nice workday for you. Go on watch from 4am to 8am, have breakfast, work from 8 til 4pm, do the 1st dog watch from 4-6 (you're at 14 hrs straight now), have dinner , cleaning stations at 8 pm, stand by for inspection at 9 which takes up to half an hour, get to bed at 10 pm, go on watch from midnight to 4am (21.5 of the last 24 hrs working, then you get 3 hrs of sleep) lights come on at 7am and then you're back to work til 4 pm, on watch from 8 til midnight. Then you get "all nighters", sleep from midnight to 7. It's the only bright spot of the 3-day cycle. It's like the weekend to a civilian. Back to work from 8-4:30. Try that when you're seasick.

We did as many as 22 straight days at sea, and that was on a trip to Alaska. Just doing circles and working 14-22 hrs a day for 22 days with only intermittent sleep.

On mid-cycle workups we literally went 22-23 hrs/day for two weeks, but we got part of the weekend off in the middle.

According to QROs it's illegal not to get 4 hrs of uninterrupted sleep but that doesn't apply at all in the Navy. Never Again Volunteer Yourself.

I know it wasn't any better being a grunt (Government Reject Unfit for Naval Training), but those of us in the junior ranks of the hard sea trades weren't chugging brewskies on the Qu'Appelle. 

 

[Dougie93]

One thing I will credit Stephen Harper for is that he quickly figured out how broken, dysfunctional and beyond repair DND actually is, and so he decided not to throw a lot of money at it after all, useless TAPV boondoggle notwithstanding.  At least the TAPV's are cheap, so it's not as bad a waste as paying $4 billion for a frigate.

[Dougie93]

13 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I know it wasn't any better being a grunt (Government Reject Unfit for Naval Training), but those of us in the junior ranks of the hard sea trades weren't chugging brewskies on the Qu'Appelle. 

 

It was fuckin' awesome being an Infanteer,  being stuck on aging Canadian warship bouncing around on the sea, would have sucked.  I'd need to get drunk just from the boredom.

None the less,  I did enjoy working with the Navy on dry land, it was more laid back than the Army, no sailor ever gave me cause to lay a beating on them, they were quite friendly in comparison to we infanteers.

[Dougie93]

The point about Norman banning drinking is not about sailors chugging brewskis, it was a time honored tradition, which Norman took it upon himself to end, for no other reason that he was appeasing the military bashing left wing media, one negative news story about two sailors.

 

He's a fuckin' liberal media Cuck.   All he got was a taste of his own medicine.

[WestCanMan]

11 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The point about Norman banning drinking is not about sailors chugging brewskis, it was a time honored tradition, which Norman took it upon himself to end, for no other reason that he was appeasing the military bashing left wing media, one negative news story about two sailors.

 

He's a fuckin' liberal media Cuck.   All he got was a taste of his own medicine.

Yeah, he had to join into the virtue-signalling, political correctness song and dance to advance in his career. He got where he is by putting other people down.

I'm sure that there aren't many nights in a year when he can't enjoy a glass of wine or a beer.

[Dougie93]

Norman was a political prisoner, speaks to the utter corruption of Canadian governance.

But Norman is complicit, he's a political operator who outed the bosses and got gulaged for it.

I certainly oppose gulags, but when a commie gets thrown in the gulag, that's what you get for being a commie, boo-hoo-hoo.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Dougie93

[WestCanMan]

50 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

It was fuckin' awesome being an Infanteer,  being stuck on aging Canadian warship bouncing around on the sea, would have sucked.  I'd need to get drunk just from the boredom.

None the less,  I did enjoy working with the Navy on dry land, it was more laid back than the Army, no sailor ever gave me cause to lay a beating on them, they were quite friendly in comparison to we infanteers.

One of my best friends from back in the day went to Afghanistan. He was at a FOB with CSOR/JTF2. I'm not exactly sure what he did there, but he didn't go out with them on their more dangerous activities. 

I have a couple of friends who went to Yugo with 3 PPCLI as well. Civilian life in Canada didn't prepare them for picking up the bodies and parts of little kids. The picture of that little Syrian boy laying face-down on the beach is nothing compared to Yugo. 

[Dougie93]

2 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

One of my best friends from back in the day went to Afghanistan. He was at a FOB with CSOR/JTF2. I'm not exactly sure what he did there, but he didn't go out with them on their more dangerous activities. 

I have a couple of friends who went to Yugo with 3 PPCLI as well. Civilian life in Canada didn't prepare them for picking up the bodies and parts of little kids. The picture of that little Syrian boy laying face-down on the beach is nothing compared to Yugo. 

Anybody who signs the contract of unlimited liability is a warrior.   You signed your life away to the Crown, that's good enough for me.

Plenty dangerous enough just being at sea.   And in the event of war;  P-700 Granit or Type 65 homing torpedo.

We all saw in the Falklands what happens when navies go to war.

Sailors have nothing to prove to me, just bouncing up and down on the high seas would be no fun for me, I don't mind pain, but I don't like constant nausea.