Argus Posted May 2, 2019 Author Report Posted May 2, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: Wages for what I do keep going up. Tech outsourcing plateaued years ago. I was offshores in 1999 when it started. And wages for what all these foreign types do? Are these wages anywhere near what people with a similar skillset earn in the United States? Because Canadian high tech grads continue to stream south every year. In one study over 65% of software graduates and 30% of computer science and computer engineering grads left for the US. 65% is a ridiculous godamn number! I bet if I checked out who is doing that work in Canada I'd find thousands of foreigners brought in for that purpose. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/technology/article-canada-facing-brain-drain-as-young-tech-talent-leaves-for-silicon/ Edited May 2, 2019 by Argus 1 Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dialamah Posted May 2, 2019 Report Posted May 2, 2019 Just now, Argus said: Yes, but the going rate is very low compared to the United States, because of the immigration and TFWs. Companies don't have to pay anything like what the US pays tech workers because they can resort to immigrants. If they didn't have immigrants/TFWs the wages would rise as companies fought over workers. But wages have stagnated for years, largely because companies can outsource. Uh, the rate of pay is an industry wide standard. So if we wanted to hire an engineer with a specific discipline from another country, we had to pay him what the standard rate is for those specialized engineers who were born and raised in Canada. We had to provide information on what we paid our other engineers and we had to submit a copy of our offer letter to CIC to demonstrate that the new guy wasn't getting paid less. We also had to explain why we weren't "hiring Canadian". Sure, companies could certainly figure out how to fool the gov and shaft both immigrant and Canadian workers and probably some do. But to suppose this is happening across the board is to suppose that most business owners are crooks. I am sure you remember how well that went down when JT made some comment about small businesses and tax breaks. Quote
Argus Posted May 2, 2019 Author Report Posted May 2, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, dialamah said: Uh, the rate of pay is an industry wide standard. Only in Canada. Rates are much higher in the US. Quote So if we wanted to hire an engineer with a specific discipline from another country, we had to pay him what the standard rate is for those specialized engineers who were born and raised in Canada. Your missing my point. The rate in Canada has become the standard through years of abuse of the immigration and TFW system. Cut back on those and the 'industry wide standard' would rise to compete for workers. Which is how Capitalism works. Heck, the rate might even rise enough to put a dent into that migration of Canadian software graduates headed south. You think they all WANT to leave their country, friends and family to find work? Have a look at the map. Toronto has the lowest tech salaries in North America. And they're not even close. They're not remotely competitive with American cities. http://www.planetweb.ca/news/toronto-tech-salaries-grew-7-last-year-still-fall-way-behind-us/ Edited May 2, 2019 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 2, 2019 Report Posted May 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Argus said: And wages for what all these foreign types do? Are these wages anywhere near what people with a similar skillset earn in the United States? Certainly not....my former U.S. employer for IT consultant services and enterprise software solutions considered Canadian based resources as "near shore" instead of "off shore" like India. They also offered the advantage of similar time zone work hours. We maintained a Montreal office that paid significantly lower wages but with a chance for sponsored U.S. visa jobs and eventual U.S. green card (permanent residency), which is highly prized by foreign IT workers to get far more opportunities and higher wages. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
dialamah Posted May 2, 2019 Report Posted May 2, 2019 Our US office had lower wages than our Canadian offices, but cost of living was lower in the States too. Perhaps that was reversed for the tech industry, I dunno. Two of our guys moved down there and liked that they're wages bought them a house they couldn't afford here. Anyway, it seems that between 2000 and 2017, wages in Canada grew while wages in the States did not. But I admit I am confused: just a few months ago you were pissed that we were paying people too much, compared to other countries, including the States, IIRC. What changed between then and now? Quote
Argus Posted May 3, 2019 Author Report Posted May 3, 2019 55 minutes ago, dialamah said: But I admit I am confused: just a few months ago you were pissed that we were paying people too much, compared to other countries, including the States, IIRC. What changed between then and now? I think you are confusing us paying incredibly good wages to government employees vs the private sector paying lousy wages in order to use cheap immigrants. One of those cites I posted gave the average tech worker wage in Toronto as about $47k. I made more than that as a clerk in the federal government. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted May 3, 2019 Report Posted May 3, 2019 3 hours ago, Argus said: 1. And wages for what all these foreign types do? Are these wages anywhere near what people with a similar skillset earn in the United States? 2. Because Canadian high tech grads continue to stream south every year. In one study over 65% of software graduates and 30% of computer science and computer engineering grads left for the US. 1. I'm not sure but I believe so. The US is a similar situation with regards to immigration. 2. Ok. As far as I recall this has been the situation for awhile. The US also accepts immigrants as your example shows. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted May 3, 2019 Author Report Posted May 3, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: 1. I'm not sure but I believe so. The US is a similar situation with regards to immigration. It does not accept nearly as many as we do on a per capita basis. Quote 2. Ok. As far as I recall this has been the situation for awhile. The US also accepts immigrants as your example shows. Yes, the top ones, with job offers from US companies. The ones who come to Canada are the ones who can't get into the US. Who the hell wants to work for $73k in Toronto when they can get $132k in Seattle? Edited May 3, 2019 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
August1991 Posted May 4, 2019 Report Posted May 4, 2019 Norway 2016: population 5.3 million, net immigration 30,000 Canada 2016: population 35 million, net immigration 300,000. Quote
cougar Posted May 4, 2019 Report Posted May 4, 2019 " The demographic challenge of a low birth rate cannot be met with immigration. Period. " I think the whole story about baby boomers is a hoax devised by pro-immigration politicians looking for ways to bring more people into the country. I never see an increase in higher paid job opportunities as a result of baby boomers retiring. It is a joke that is not funny; so we must call it a scam. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted May 4, 2019 Report Posted May 4, 2019 21 hours ago, Argus said: Yes, the top ones, with job offers from US companies. The ones who come to Canada are the ones who can't get into the US. Who the hell wants to work for $73k in Toronto when they can get $132k in Seattle? Sure ... but a $73K worker in Toronto still pays their share of taxes and more. And let me Google this up a bit... The average Information technology salary in Canada is $75,973 per year or $38.96per hour. https://neuvoo.ca/salary/?job=information+technology I found anecdotal information on wage growth but nothing official enough. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 4, 2019 Report Posted May 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said: Sure ... but a $73K worker in Toronto still pays their share of taxes and more. And let me Google this up a bit... The average Information technology salary in Canada is $75,973 per year or $38.96per hour. Are those Canadian or U.S. dollars ? $76K CAD is only about $56.5K USD, and the cost of living is higher in Canada. No wonder they want to cross the border for better pay and opportunities. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted May 4, 2019 Report Posted May 4, 2019 8 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: No wonder they want to cross the border for better pay and opportunities. Fair enough. Sometimes you have to pay for quality. I wouldn't take a pay raise to live in an amoral hell hole any more than you would live in a place with intelligent politics and smaller hamburgers. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 4, 2019 Report Posted May 4, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Fair enough. Sometimes you have to pay for quality. I wouldn't take a pay raise to live in an amoral hell hole any more than you would live in a place with intelligent politics and smaller hamburgers. Meh...the labour market and worker visa traffic says otherwise...Canada is often not the first choice. $57K ...average....seriously ? That sucks ! Edited May 4, 2019 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted May 4, 2019 Author Report Posted May 4, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, August1991 said: Norway 2016: population 5.3 million, net immigration 30,000 Canada 2016: population 35 million, net immigration 300,000. Good for Norway. They clearly don't intend to let themselves become overwhelmed by foreigners. Hey, August. How about a deal? We'll double immigration, but they all have to live in Quebec. That okay with you? I'm sure Quebecers aren't the type of people to worry about their culture being overwhelmed by millions of newcomers who don't speak their language or share their values. Edited May 4, 2019 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted May 4, 2019 Author Report Posted May 4, 2019 4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: Sure ... but a $73K worker in Toronto still pays their share of taxes and more. And let me Google this up a bit... So you see nothing wrong with having 65% of our software engineer graduates leaving Canada every year and replacing them with foreigners? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted May 4, 2019 Report Posted May 4, 2019 5 hours ago, Argus said: So you see nothing wrong with having 65% of our software engineer graduates leaving Canada every year and replacing them with foreigners? No - I didn't say that but - did you have a cite for that ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted May 4, 2019 Author Report Posted May 4, 2019 43 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: No - I didn't say that but - did you have a cite for that ? Posted at the top of this page. 1 Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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