Financial Support for Indigenous Peoples

[mowich]

On 3/31/2019 at 12:15 PM, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t think that assistance to Indigenous peoples should be a permanent arrangement.  It should have a scale-back mechanism that kicks in once a self-sustainability plan is in place, gradually reducing to zero as employment and resource development improves.  This is what should happen.  What do I actually think will happen?  Taxpayers continue to fund Indigenous affairs such that many Indigenous peoples don’t have an incentive to work in and contribute to the wider economy or even the local Indigenous economy.

I've been waiting for that 'self-sustainability' to kick in for over 60 years.  There are some reserves that are well functioning communities with high employment, good living conditions and well educated members but there are many more that will never attain that status due to where they are located.  They will remain virtual 'wards of the state' with no hope for a better future in sight as they will never have a way of becoming self- sustaining.  They adamantly refuse to relocate yet are willing to see their children die of suicide or drug overdoses.  It is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.  It is these reserves that need to be dealt with in some manner that is beneficial to them and to the country. 

[mowich]

On 3/31/2019 at 9:47 AM, eyeball said:

Because Grandma hasn't given back their country.  Once that happens they'll be able to nationalize their resources industries and then take care of us for a change.

No one is ever going to 'give them back OUR country' so you can put that thought aside.  This country belongs to all Canadians no matter their race and the sooner some of the activist types finally realize that, the sooner things just might actually approach the reconciliation that all of us are hoping to see. 

[mowich]

On 3/31/2019 at 12:40 PM, Robert Greene said:

They're too far gone. They think they own the entire country, and everyone who works 9 to 5 has to feed them cradle to grave. The liberals just treat them like useful idiots, anytime they want a pipeline protest or whatever. I'm sick our politicians sending ransom money, while our senior citizens are dying in hospitals.

First of all, anyone born in Canada has just as much right to be in Canada as a native. A government can't force a white person to pay taxes to a group of people who don't pay taxes. There's no accountability for how the money gets spent. Last time I went to a reserve, I had a group of Alcoholics lecture me on who the state of Wyoming is there land. It's not even in their country. You have a million people saying the second largest country is all theirs, and anyone who doesn't hand over welfare payments should feel shamed.

I for one, am sick of it. I'm sick of the silence from the conservatives on this issues. Everybody has been brainwashed, into believing that we have to pay for a house and food for the rest of their lives.

I'm proposing the breakup of Canada. We're the second largest country, and we shouldn't expect all white people, and every new immigrant to pay for every native that's alive, and that's going to live. They have 1 million people, and we have 33 million, so why don't we give them 3% of Canada. They can start they're own country, and run it the way they like.

Ok how about we give them more than their fare share. How about we give them 30% of Canada. Let's give them the Yukon, Northwest Territories, and Nunavut. Now they can figure out how capitalism works, or continue with their socialism nonsense and become a third world country. Either way natives will be responsible for cleaning up their own communities. So if they want to let a bunch of alcoholics run wild, that's their choice. They can live with the consequences in their own nation.

If they keep bitchin about land, I say lets give them some land. We got lots of it.

In the first place there is no way 'we' can give them Yukon, Nunavut or NWT.  In the second place, I highly doubt that the citizens of those territories would welcome the invasion and I can't say as I would blame them one bit.

I completely understand your frustration with this issue Robert but I will never ever condone the breaking up of our country to appease less than 3% of the population. It is a NO GO from the start. 

[mowich]

On 4/1/2019 at 8:41 PM, Zeitgeist said:

There’s something inherently wrong about race-based benefits and pay-outs.  Where does it end?  Any funding has to be transitional.  The problem with my question is that it includes the word “permanent”.  I support some funding, but permanent support equals permanent dependence.  Anything short of self-sustainability is ultimately a failure.  I agree that privatization of land, should any bands choose it, should be accompanied with transitional support, but it’s finite, as is any reserve/territorial funding.   

Agreed, Zeitgeist. 

[mowich]

On 4/1/2019 at 5:48 PM, cannuck said:

You extremely limited knowledge is based on some web blog you have searched for to support your unsupportable position.   Mine is based in living and working with aboriginal bands and people for much of the last 45 years.

Giving them protected land, free housing, free education to any level and extent they want, free health care, free EVERYTHING anyone could possibly want is not genocide, it is a privileged life that no other Canadians can get.

Thank you for your knowledge and insights into this issue, cannuck.  They are much appreciated.

[mowich]

23 hours ago, jacee said:

It was you who claimed the existence of "race-based benefits", but you provided nothing to back up that claim.

I pointed out that Indigenous people simply get the same types of benefits and services as all Canadians. 

It is not clear whether people in reserve  communities get the same level of services: education funding levels per-student may still be inexplicably lower, for example. Medical services are more limited, water purification obviously not equitable, fresh foods not as accessible. Roads? Hydro? Not sure, but I wouldn't assume they're reliable. Public housing? ... we've all heard of the nightmare mould problems in reserve communities. Granted, we may have pest problems and disrepair in public housing in cities too, but not to the level of being condemned due to unhealthy-to-deadly mould contamination.

Equity in benefits and services is certainly a reasonable goal, but I don't think we've achieved it yet.

As for taxes ... per previous link ... balancing benefits received and income taxes paid ... 40% of Canadians pay no taxes. 

How can I join the 40%?

[mowich]

22 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Has anyone done an analysis of overall employment levels on reserves?  Off reserve, when people can’t find work to pay the rent/mortgage, they generally move.  Unemployment and welfare are supposed to be temporary stopgaps.  Wherever there is inter-generational dependence on the state for income and housing, there are social problems.  That’s why I think reserves are largely bad for the human spirit, because they lock people into s particular location with the incentive of free land and no income tax.  That might be fine on a reserve with plenty of employment options, but how many such places exist?  

Freedom of mobility is part of what it means to be free.  I’m not suggesting taking reserves or territories from people, but if the community doesn’t see enough upside in staying put, and if staying put is only possible with outside government support, such places probably aren’t worth sustaining.  Bands should have the right to privatize and sell, as well as have transitional assistance to do so.  Maybe in some cases land swaps are the answer or joining other bands.  True long-term self-sustainability means generating wealth through employment, investment, and/or development, and setting aside a portion of the income to pay for services like health and education (taxation).  That’s how every healthy society does it in a modern society with modern comforts.  You want the services and comforts?   Have to work.  There are no shortcuts or free lunches.  Someone has to pay.  Sort out any outstanding owed funds within a reasonable statute of limitations and move on.  I wonder whether some people really want to move on.  

Out of 'thumbs up' for today, so consider this just that.

[mowich]

21 hours ago, cannuck said:

Educational "services" off reserve are paid from provincial and municipal taxes.  On reserve, no taxes are paid, but education is provided on the Federal tax dollar.  Not the basic literacy foreseen by treaties, but an aboriginal can attend any school at any level for as long as they please.  AND, in many cases, they will be graduated from post-secondary institutions without that nasty bother of meeting the same academic standards of those who are paying tuition to attend.

Medical services on reserve are no different from any other small or remote rural community - except they are paid by a government to whom nobody on reserve pays any tax at all.

Fresh foods, road, electricity, water....all paid for by those in other remote communities from their earnings - all provided for by the great white government on reserves, and almost in all cases operated by the reserve (for which they are well paid by Ottawa) but fall into dissrepair since few bother to actually go TO the job of maintaining and operating.

Horrible problems with mould?  Well, no different from any other home in a moist environment when you don't bother to do any maintenance.  90% unemployment, unlimited access to resources to repair and maintain, but somehow it is white man's fault it isn't maintained??????

"We" have long ago achieved many things on behalf of the aboriginal population.  They, on the other hand, have achieved next to nothing from the endless resources and dollars they have been given (except, of course, to go into the gambling business with the mafia).

There are some reserves that are operating the same as any municipality, Cannuck and they deserve all the credit due them.  I don't lump all reserves together but your points are all very well taken. 

[mowich]

15 hours ago, Robert Greene said:

I lost my temper with natives. Mainly, because I never had a problem with them, but I experienced extreme racism from one particular reserve. If you came out of a house, with a few drunk natives high on drunks, lecturing you about "Montana" and calling you "Easy White Boy", you might understand. 

I left the reserve, feeling that some natives are extremely creepy. I remember as soon as I walked in the guy grabbed my hand to shake it, held on it, and laughed in my face. "You're gonna be fun"

I guess it depends on the community, some natives enjoy playing games, and I feel like we need to show some tough love.

I felt like the leadership, has weaponized their citizens against white people.

Some reserves use some dirty tactics.

I felt bad throwing all natives under the bus, but after experiencing what I've experienced, I wanted to even the score.

There are bad apples in every segment of society Robert and judging all natives by a handful is generalization I will never support.  I know many native people living as I do close to a reserve and the majority of them are no different than any of my other friends.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, mowich said:

No one is ever going to 'give them back OUR country' so you can put that thought aside.

Just think of it as an opening position in a negotiation between two extremes and work towards the space between them.

Personally I think all First Nations across Canada that don't have modern treaties should insist on renegotiating the primitive treaties they've been stuck with.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, mowich said:

I completely understand your frustration with this issue Robert but I will never ever condone the breaking up of our country to appease less than 3% of the population. It is a NO GO from the start. 

He's talking about appeasing himself and other pink power types - apparently Canada's fastest growing demographic.  Other than the Schadenfreude I don't give a shit about this frustration at all myself.  As for the 3% don't forget Robert also has the whole left-lib deep-state eco-terrorist fake-media demographic standing between natives and his type.  The pinkies have the same problem with Islam apparently but they never do anything about that either so...what is there to really give a shit about anyway?

Edited April 3, 2019 by eyeball

[Robert Greene]

I'm what you call a progressive conservative. I want conservative principles applied in a progressive way. My firm beliefs are everyone should be paying a fare share in taxes. I'm for lower taxes, and lower spending. I'm against special interest tax breaks and loopholes. I want to end all welfare, and replace it with a basic job guarantee for all.

I want to put the burden on corporations to do more entry level hiring, in exchange for a fair tax break. I think anyone who's not working, it leads to depressions, mental illness, and it's tax revenue the government could be collecting. I would would shrink the size of most government agencies, and use the saving to pay for a guaranteed basic jobfare program.

I believe in strong fiscal accountability, and I would reduce the minimum wage for anyone who's been out of work for a long period of time. I would change the criminal justice system to reduce overall sentencing, but come up with alternative punishments. For example, If some teens get caught leaving beer cans at a park, I would make the spend a few afternoons cleaning the side of a road.

I want to see the gradual reduction of the workweek. I would like to see a four day work week, and five weeks of vacation time during the year. I want to see large cuts to health care, and spend more money on prevention. I like to hike taxes on the purchases of unhealthy food.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Robert Greene

[Robert Greene]

What about my proposal to give Natives their own country?

What if we offered you Northern British Colombia, Yukon, Northwest Territories, Northern Quebec, Labrador and Nunavut?

Sorry about the cold weather, but what if we gave you 40% of Canada, in exchange for the rest of us not having to fund your reserves?

Would you take that offer?

If you developed your resources well, you could become rich like Norway, maybe reach $65 000 GDP per capita.

Maybe you could buy your own airline. Fly in thousands of Europeans, take them on Ecotourism adventures.

I want the reserve system to end, because it's keeping you poor, and it's lowering Canada's GDP.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Robert Greene

[cannuck]

12 hours ago, Robert Greene said:

What about my proposal to give Natives their own country?

What if we offered you Northern British Colombia, Yukon, Northwest Territories, Northern Quebec, Labrador and Nunavut?

Sorry about the cold weather, but what if we gave you 40% of Canada, in exchange for the rest of us not having to fund your reserves?

Would you take that offer?

If you developed your resources well, you could become rich like Norway, maybe reach $65 000 GDP per capita.

Maybe you could buy your own airline. Fly in thousands of Europeans, take them on Ecotourism adventures.

I want the reserve system to end, because it's keeping you poor, and it's lowering Canada's GDP.

As I believe I have mentioned before: the solution is very simple: give them Quebec - solves almost all of our problems.

[Realitycheck]

Robert Greene  You are not a progressive conservative, you are NDP/LIberal. Your pie-in-the-rose coloured sky ideas avoid or ignore some basic human facts. Among others is the fact one cannot guarantee jobs to people who don't want them. A certain percentage of the population does not want to work, is satisfied with welfare and whatever crimes then can commit to augment that. Others are perfectly content to simply sit on the street and beg. Some of those beggars can bring in $300+ a day! Tax free!