Canada needs to stop being China's bitch

[cannuck]

49 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

However, if countries, particularly China, dump the US debt that they hold and the greenback collapses, the US could fast become a wholly owned subsidiary of China, already becoming the case for US manufacturing.  The advantage the US has as a hedge against inflation is that commodities are priced in US dollars, but countries with stronger currencies will outspend the US.  That’s the downside of China letting the Yuan rise, which will happen as China develops its domestic market and becomes less dependent on exports.  The US’s accumulation of debt exacerbates this problem.  

I certainly don't have a hotline into the CPC backrooms, but if I did, I expect I would hear something like:  "If we are going to take over the US, we need the Greenback to crash.  Fortunately,  by letting Goldman Sucks and their Wall Street bretheren run the economy, speculative trading, derivatives and other "synthetic" instruments has left a massive pent-up inflationary pressure on the dollar, not to mention tens of trillions more in current dollar debt.   All we have to do is make some new currency the de-facto hegemon - just like the Europeans tried to do before the bankers tubed the Euro in the PIIGS debacle."

Of course, the public can see that the Chinese have already proposed how to do this (replace the Greenback with a basket of other currencies).

Just sayin' ya know.

BTW: China has been playing global politics for 5,000 years while for 4,700 of them Muricuns were building teepees and shooting buffalo.

Edited April 2, 2019 by cannuck

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

That's all well and good, but you are choosing to ignore the more direct impact of commodity prices on the Canadian dollar.

China is now a player in this arena as a consumer of commodities, having significantly more leverage than Canada.

In the 1990's Canada's dollar nearly collapsed (default)...Chretien had to slash spending.

Yes Canada learned the hard lesson of overspending, though kid Trudeau has a short memory.  

Canada’s commodities, from oil to uranium to liquified natural gas, potash, etc, are its ace in the hole in a growing world where developing countries are becoming highly developed and demanding resources.  That’s why pipelines matter.  China is one of many players and an important one, as its investments have made clear.  

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes Canada learned the hard lesson of overspending, though kid Trudeau has a short memory.  

Canada’s commodities, from oil to uranium to liquified natural gas, potash, etc, are its ace in the hole in a growing world where developing countries are becoming highly developed and demanding resources.  That’s why pipelines matter.  China is one of many players and an important one, as its investments have made clear.  

 

Canada will learn how to get along with China...or it will be left behind.    The world is not going to reject China just because Canada has problems.

 

Quote

Canada’s future will largely be determined by its geo-political and geo-economic relationship with two powerful rivals: The United States and the People’s Republic of China. Few Canadians would doubt the strategic importance of Canada’s relationship with the United States since we tend to cluster in cities dotted along the Canada-US border. Alternatively, most Canadians have been slow to appreciate China’s near-term impact on Canada’s domestic and foreign policy.

With a population of about 1.3 billion, China is projected to overtake the United States as the world’s largest economy within a decade. In 2016, the World Bank estimated the size of its GDP at US$11.2 trillion, exceeding the size of all the other Asian economies combined.  China has become an indispensable economic partner for more than 100 countries around the world and is evolving into a global hub of research, manufacturing, and technical innovation.

https://thecic.org/en/a-made-in-canada-china-strategy-for-2018/

 

[Zeitgeist]

5 minutes ago, cannuck said:

I certainly don't have a hotline into the CPC backrooms, but if I did, I expect I would hear something like:  "If we are going to take over the US, we need the Greenback to crash.  Fortunately,  by letting Goldman Sucks and their Wall Street bretheren run the economy, speculative trading, derivatives and other "synthetic" instruments has left a massive pent-up inflationary pressure on the dollar, not to mention tens of trillions more in current dollar debt.   All we have to do is make some new currency the de-facto hegemon - just like the Europeans tried to do before the bankers tubed the Euro in the PIIGS debacle."

Of course, the public can see that the Chinese have already proposed how to do this (replace the Greenback with a basket of other currencies).

Just sayin' ya know.

Yes it’s interesting how China is holding its own Breton-Woods type macroeconomic fora.  Concerning to the US and perhaps Europe,  A basket of smaller currencies to replace the greenback is better for smaller countries like Canada, probably better for the world.  

[Owly]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes Canada learned the hard lesson of overspending, though kid Trudeau has a short memory.  

Canada’s commodities, from oil to uranium to liquified natural gas, potash, etc, are its ace in the hole in a growing world where developing countries are becoming highly developed and demanding resources.  That’s why pipelines matter.  China is one of many players and an important one, as its investments have made clear.  

And of course if we can get our oil to tidewater and ship it to China we can get a real price for it instead of giving it to the states.

[cannuck]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes Canada learned the hard lesson of overspending, though kid Trudeau has a short memory.  

Canada’s commodities, from oil to uranium to liquified natural gas, potash, etc, are its ace in the hole in a growing world where developing countries are becoming highly developed and demanding resources.  That’s why pipelines matter.  China is one of many players and an important one, as its investments have made clear.  

Yabutttt:  we certainly have more resources per capita than any other country (and FAR more per capita in SK than any other million people on the planet) but hewing wood and drawing water are drawing on a very limited bank account.   What we do NOT do worth a shit is add value.   We sell a hundred bucks worth of coal, oil, uranium, whatever to China or the USA and buy it back as a grand or more worth of product.  Got to fix that first.  Our only significant value added export business is cars and car parts - and that depends almost 100% of the US.  Got to fix that too.

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Canada will learn how to get along with China...or it will be left behind.    The world is not going to reject China just because Canada has problems.

 

 

The only concern I have about China is that it’s not a truly open democracy.  It doesn’t play fair.  All countries intervene in their economies, but China goes much further.  All countries have to contend with a rising China.  Some suggest embracing it.  Canada could enter into an alliance with China.  Hong Kong is doing well.   They’d love our resources and lebensraum, but that’s a radical and dangerous shift, including for the US.  We’re already outnumbered by a superpower.  I value our liberal democracy and the freedom our ancestors fought for.  That’s worth protecting.  

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, cannuck said:

Yabutttt:  we certainly have more resources per capita than any other country (and FAR more per capita in SK than any other million people on the planet) but hewing wood and drawing water are drawing on a very limited bank account.   What we do NOT do worth a shit is add value.   We sell a hundred bucks worth of coal, oil, uranium, whatever to China or the USA and buy it back as a grand or more worth of product.  Got to fix that first.  Our only significant value added export business is cars and car parts - and that depends almost 100% of the US.  Got to fix that too.

 

Yep...you can lead them to water...but you can't make them drink.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

The only concern I have about China is that it’s not a truly open democracy.  It doesn’t play fair.  All countries intervene in their economies, but China goes much further.  All countries have to contend with a rising China.  Some suggest embracing it.  Canada could enter into an alliance with China.  Hong Kong is doing well.   They’d love our resources and lebensraum, but that’s a radical and dangerous shift, including for the US.  We’re already outnumbered by a superpower.  I value our liberal democracy and the freedom our ancestors fought for.  That’s worth protecting.  

 

Then suffer for it....ideals don't pay the bills.   The U.S. that you criticize for guns, poverty, capital punishment, income inequality, racism, whatever is Canada's economic lifeblood, so why hold China to a different standard ?    Check your scruples at the door...or stay out.

[Zeitgeist]

7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Yep...you can lead them to water...but you can't make them drink.

Relax folks.  We’re trying to run the second largest land mass with 36 million people.  We need to do the value add, develop resources, develop the North, add infrastructure....It’s a lot and we’re doing it.   The pipeline obstacles have gotten silly.  We need a government that pushes them through come hell or high water, probably through legislation.  Even belligerent Trump is struggling with Keystone.  

Edited April 2, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Relax folks.  We’re trying to run the second largest land mass with 36 million people.  We need to do the value add, develop resource, develop the North, add infrastructure....It’s a lot and we’re doing it.   The pipeline obstacles have gotten silly.  We need a government that pushes them through come hell or high water, probably through legislation.  

 

That's what "liberal democracy" gets you....pretty easy to build a pipeline in China.

[cannuck]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

That's what "liberal democracy" gets you....pretty easy to build a pipeline in China.

Not true at all.   China made a declaration some time ago that there would be no new coal fired plants built.  I/we thought that meant re-fitting existing thermal plants with gas burners.   Not how they do things there.  They will simply replace the whole plant(s) with new gas fired plants.  Problem is: China doesn't have that much gas.  It DOES have extremely limited LNG receiving capacity (dominated by CNOOC).  You can get a license to build a new gas fired plant in the bat of an eyelash, but you can't find any place to offload the LNG nor any ability to get a permit to build a pipeline from the LNG terminal to your new plant location.  Not Canada-damn-near-impossible, but China-oops-we-forgot-about-that slow.

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, cannuck said:

Not true at all.   China made a declaration some time ago that there would be no new coal fired plants built. 

 

Very very true for oil and gas pipelines....which are not coal power plants.

 

Quote

The National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC) and National Energy Administration (NEA) unveiled ambitious plans last week to expand and upgrade China’s oil and gas pipeline network over the next decade.

The network should reach a total length of 169,000 km by 2020, they said in a joint statement. This would comprise 32,000 km of pipelines for crude oil, 33,000 km for refined oil and 104,000 km for natural gas. China currently has 112,000 km of oil and gas pipelines.

https://newsbase.com/topstories/china-unveils-pipelines-strategy

 

[cannuck]

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Very very true for oil and gas pipelines....which are not coal power plants.

 

 

that is the response for the "oops" bit.   Once more, I have to remind others - and myself - that China does things about 10x faster than we do.   Nice thing about not being encumbered by democratic processes.  My observation about 8 months out of date.

Edited April 2, 2019 by cannuck

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, cannuck said:

that is the response for the "oops" bit.   Once more, I have to remind others - and myself - that China does things about 10x faster than we do.   Nice thing about not being encumbered by democratic processes.

 

Was Pierre Trudeau's NEP a "democratic process" ?

[cannuck]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Was Pierre Trudeau's NEP a "democratic process" ?

Excellent comeback - thanks for remembering.

I can not print my response to anything about PET, or I will be banned forever.

[Zeitgeist]

17 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Then suffer for it....ideals don't pay the bills.   The U.S. that you criticize for guns, poverty, capital punishment, income inequality, racism, whatever is Canada's economic lifeblood, so why hold China to a different standard ?    Check your scruples at the door...or stay out.

We’re suffering for it, trying to balance our growing trade relationship with China with the relationship with our traditional ally.  It’s a no win, but so far Canada continues to respect its extradition agreement.  Many Canadians do question whether it was the right move.  

Some Canadians would also prefer to cave into China’s bullying tactics.  I’d suggest that there’s a price to pay for that.  Harper got more leverage with China by slamming them for human rights.  

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

We’re suffering for it, trying to balance our growing trade relationship with China with the relationship with our traditional ally.  It’s a no win, but so far Canada continues to respect its extradition agreement.  Many Canadians do question whether it was the right move.  

Some Canadians would also prefer to cave into China’s bullying tactics.  I’d suggest that there’s a price to pay for that.  Harper got more leverage with China by slamming them for human rights.  

 

Right move or not....once decided...why bitch about the obvious outcome, as if it is a surprise.   Play ball with China (and the USA), or go find another game.

Harper had backup with other western governments...less so today.    Canada was all by itself when it took on the KSA too.

Edited April 2, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Owly]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Right move or not....once decided...why bitch about the obvious outcome, as if it is a surprise.   Play ball with China (and the USA), or go find another game.

Harper had backup with other western governments...less so today.    Canada was all by itself when it took on the KSA too.

And now the KSA has Trump right were they want him.

[Zeitgeist]

13 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Right move or not....once decided...why bitch about the obvious outcome, as if it is a surprise.   Play ball with China (and the USA), or go find another game.

Harper had backup with other western governments...less so today.    Canada was all by itself when it took on the KSA too.

The KSA situation ended up looking good on Canada, once Kashogi was murdered and it became very clear to the world that the Saudi prince thought he had been given a green light.  The US scrambled to take a stance like Canada’s, with Trump the laggard.  

[Zeitgeist]

16 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Right move or not....once decided...why bitch about the obvious outcome, as if it is a surprise.   Play ball with China (and the USA), or go find another game.

Harper had backup with other western governments...less so today.    Canada was all by itself when it took on the KSA too.

This is why Trump is bad news for America and the world.  It’s not just the debt and fear mongering, but the whole look the other way stance toward KSA and Russia. Despots have felt empowered.  

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

The KSA situation ended up looking good on Canada, once Kashogi was murdered and it became very clear to the world that the Saudi prince thought he had been given a green light.  The US scrambled to take a stance like Canada’s, with Trump the laggard.  

 

I'm sure that's your take, but Canada kept exporting LAVs to the KSA and importing oil from the KSA.....Ideals vs. Outcomes

Why waste your time on these virtue signaling dramas with the KSA or China?    Brownie points for Liberals ?

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

This is why Trump is bad news for America and the world.  It’s not just the debt and fear mongering, but the whole look the other way stance toward KSA and Russia. Despots have felt empowered.  

 

Too bad...stop depending so much on the United States to "defend the post WW2 order" while being a complicit deadbeat.

China and the U.S. love despots for Chinese and American interests...long before Trump.

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

I'm sure that's your take, but Canada kept exporting LAVs to the KSA and importing oil from the KSA.....Ideals vs. Outcomes

Why waste your time on these virtue signaling dramas with the KSA or China?    Brownie points for Liberals ?

I actually think it makes a point for oil independence and pipelines, as well as a strategy for dealing with China.  China is a complex problem that, so far, I don’t see resolved by anyone.  

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Too bad...stop depending so much on the United States to "defend the post WW2 order" while being a complicit deadbeat.

China and the U.S. love despots for Chinese and American interests...long before Trump.

What kind of a world do you want?  A lot can change.  Learn Mandarin.