Why isn't Canada helping to promote democracy?

[rhumbline]

So let me get this straight you can assist in war operations again'st Iraqi forces, terrorists,and other hostile forces and not be considered actually taking part in the war on Iraq. Is that what you are saying.. Because that is what i am trying to tell you, that the Canadian Navy along with Maritime A/C assisted in operations again'st Iraq. The answer to your question is NO, Canadian troops did not land troops in Iraq, they did however take part in naval operations again'st

Iraq.

Our Liberal party lied to you and to the rest of us. Canadians did take part in the invasion of Iraq.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not according to Cmdre. Roger Girouard, head of the task force involved. He said "The Task Force is responsible for escorting ships, intercepting and boarding suspect ships and guarding against attacks on shipping" and that "Canada won't be participating in a possible war on Iraq." This was stated just prior to the invasion. http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...44964458943_10/

I agree. Iwas the mate on watch while my vessel was in St Johns. I think it was about two years ago. We passed a heaving line across our vessel to the line handlers ashore. There were two naval vessels returning from Iraq, and St.Johns was their first stop. They were going to Halifax the following day. We spoke to some of the guys, and they said that they were doing escort,boarding and intercept.. I will omit the names of the vessels, but they began with "I" There was a small welcoming home ceremony on the dock.

Buy the way, the Captain did a great job docking the ship without a tug, even though he was caught in a wind change during the process...

[newbie]

Here is another reason why Canada doesn't help the terrorist Bush: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

His indiscriminate bombing of innocent women and children does not help his cause.

[Murray B.]

Canada is not in Iraq promoting democracy because the PM at the time was French. When the PM is English then Canada goes along with Britain and when French we pretty much go along with France. It was a French PM this time and France did not go and so didn't we.

Not sending troops, however, does not excuse the vehement anti-U.S. statements coming from some Canadians. Let's not forget that the U.S. was attacked in a monsterous way and the military actions were a response to that attack. Iraq was included because it had trained, equipped and financed anti-western terrorists for years. Right or wrong this is an issue for the U.S. voters to decide and this is one Canadian that will stay out of it.

If Mr. Bush wins the next election then I'm fine with that. If the Democrats, or Libertarians or Constitution party should win then I'm fine with that too. Canadians have no business trying to influence elections outside of the country.

[YankAbroad]

Chretien's intentions may not have been purely strategic when he opted out of the Iraq War, but it's proven to be a wise decision. Canada would be well advised not to get mired down in Iraq or provide cover for Bush's poor planning. It's up to him to articulate a strategy to fix the mess -- not demand that all the countries he insulted for calling him on his bullshit skip in to bail him out.

[Murray B.]

Chretien's intentions may not have been purely strategic when he opted out of the Iraq War, but it's proven to be a wise decision.

If France would have gone then I believe that Canada would have gone too. Perhaps France was wise, or perhaps not, but only time (as in decades) will tell.

The Iraq war does not change the fact that there are still a dozen countries that finance, equip, and train, operatives dedicated to attacking western democracies. These operative groups move from one friendly country to another every few months to remain hidden and they know about western politics. They have manipulated western governments in ways that have prevented effective countermeasures for years.

Finally the clandestine operatives completely destroyed the World Trade Center and thousands of lives were lost. The U.S. adminstration and some allies decided to move against the anti-western trainers of the operative groups and not just the groups themselves. Was this the right thing to do? I don't know, but they had to do something.

So, what would you have done? One day you turn on the TV and are shocked by the sight of the World Trade Center burning. What are your orders, Mr. President?

[YankAbroad]

Make an example of the guys who actually did the planning and execution, rather than sidetrack in Iraq and lose sight of the prize.

[Black Dog]

Canada is not in Iraq promoting democracy because the PM at the time was French. When the PM is English then Canada goes along with Britain and when French we pretty much go along with France. It was a French PM this time and France did not go and so didn't we.

Funny, all this time I thought Shawinigan was in Quebec.

Not sending troops, however, does not excuse the vehement anti-U.S. statements coming from some Canadians. Let's not forget that the U.S. was attacked in a monsterous way and the military actions were a response to that attack. Iraq was included because it had trained, equipped and financed anti-western terrorists for years. Right or wrong this is an issue for the U.S. voters to decide and this is one Canadian that will stay out of it

Not these chestnuts again.

The Iraq war does not change the fact that there are still a dozen countries that finance, equip, and train, operatives dedicated to attacking western democracies. These operative groups move from one friendly country to another every few months to remain hidden and they know about western politics. They have manipulated western governments in ways that have prevented effective countermeasures for years.

Strangely enough, the bigest terror-sponsoring states are ones the U.S. remains on friendly terms with.

YankAbroad:

Make an example of the guys who actually did the planning and execution, rather than sidetrack in Iraq and lose sight of the prize.

What makes you think the "prize" wasn't Iraq all along?

[Murray B.]

Make an example of the guys who actually did the planning and execution, rather than sidetrack in Iraq and lose sight of the prize.

Okay, but they moved just before the attack happened. These sort of groups always move before a major attack. Some think they went into Pakistan and others figured they headed west. Playing musical countries is how they have been able to operate without interference for so many years. There is no good intelligence as to their whereabouts.

What are your orders, Mr. President?

P.S. Does "planning and execution" apply to the countries that financed, trained and equipped them? Do the "guys" include other groups currently training to attack the United States or just the groups that already have? What if the group is planning to attack European countries, should the President be worried about this?

[Murray B.]

Funny, all this time I thought Shawinigan was in Quebec.

I'm pretty sure that this is true and I also believe that Calgary is in Alberta. Its London that confuses me. Sometimes it is in Britain and sometimes it's in central Canada. They should quit moving it all over the place.

[YankAbroad]

What makes you think the "prize" wasn't Iraq all along?

Bin Laden isn't in Iraq and wasn't in Iraq.

[Black Dog]

What makes you think the "prize" wasn't Iraq all along?

Bin Laden isn't in Iraq and wasn't in Iraq.

Oh I'm aware of that. But my point is that bin Laden was never that important. Hell, we've seen he's more useful alive to pop up periodicaly to scare folks with whatever latest pronouncement. Dead or captured, there's no threat for the government to hype. Not that these were considerations before hand, but I don't think OBL was ever the real objective. Invading Iraq was on the table long before there was a "war on terror"; 9-11 just opened the window of opportunity for the neocons to fulfill that dream.

[Canadian Patriot]

If a lot of you cared to do research on Iraq you will find that the U.S not only put him in power but also funded Osama bin Laden to help beat the soviets in the 80's in Afghanistan. He was revered as a war hero and freedom fighter.

Iraq in question prior to 1991 was the most prosperous nation in the middle east. Saddam Hussein though i don't like the guy never gassed his own people.

It was a gas attack from Iran it was proven that a soviet based gas was used on the Iraqi's during their conflict with Iran. Further more i would like to add that in 91 Iraq was nothing more then an over hyped weapons test.

In a 24 hour period america dropped the equivilent of 250 hiroshima bombs taking out infrastructure.

Bombs hit markets,power stations, businesses, homes and killed 250,000 people overnight. Iraq the first time was caused when Hussein wanted to raise the price of Oil and showed a little independance.

Iraqi children are now getting adult cancers all the time due to the radioactive DU munitions used.

Iraq without Hussein has actually become worse. America is manufacturing their own enemy putting on a fancy show while the Bush/Cheney administration keeps grabbing power behind closed doors. The "OIL" also plays a big part.

Canada should never get involved in any theatre of war with the U.S and especially not Iraq.

Also i would like to add that U.S. fatalities list only counts people killed in combat not people who die on their way to hospitals and medics. The actual toll is somewhere in and around 12 to 20 thousand dead. They don't count technicalities.

Also i would like to point out that i have definative proof that Osama Bin Laden was not responsible for 9/11 and can proove the video statement in which he claims responsibility is a hoax.

He uses his opposite hand in the video alot

He is also wearing a "gold" watch which is again'st his beleifs.

Face it this entire war was manufactured so that the United States could start bringing in BIG government and tyranny on their people which we have seen. with Patriot act 1 and 2 which was later renamed the defence enhancement act after it never passed the first time. etc.

Under Patriot Act 1 the definition of terrorism is any violation of federal or state law and patriot act 2 it says they can strip you citizen ship and do whatever they want to you for breaking the rules.

All the years of big spending has left America Bankrupt literally. A billionaire predicted 07 will be the crash of the U.S. economy. I think if congress doesn't heed the warnings from the treasury secretary john Snow and increase their borrowing cap by next month they will crash after all they are only a few billion away from hitting the current cap.

Canada should have no dealing with the U.S. since it has been infact hijacked by a small cabal of billionaire gangsters. (has for almost a 100 years)

Prescott bush Dubya's grandfather was labeled as a merchant of death after it was revealed in ww2 that he not only funded Auchawitz death camp but he and his partner Harriman funded hitler and gave him the American capitol need to buy his boys those fancy Nazi uniforms they wore as well. You know something else Senior and his son aren't to much different.

[newbie]

Canada should never get involved in any theatre of war with the U.S and especially not Iraq.

Canada should have no dealing with the U.S. since it has been infact hijacked by a small cabal of billionaire gangsters. (has for almost a 100 years)azi uniforms they wore as well. You know something else Senior and his son aren't to much different.

I hope you didn't vote for Harper.

[Canadian Patriot]

No I didn't why would i vote for him or any of the other mainstream parties whom represent their own personal status and wealth.

[PocketRocket]

Canada should have no dealing with the U.S. since it has been infact hijacked by a small cabal of billionaire gangsters. (has for almost a 100 years)

Hmmm. "No dealing with the USA"???

Unless we were to cultivate a whole lot of other trade partners very quickly, that would lead to national bankruptcy.

Better get all your savings converted to sheckels or dinaries, or maybe euros, before that step is taken, because Canadian cash wouldn't be worth the paper it's printed on.

Sorry. I don't particularly want to live in a 3rd world country.

The USA is by no means perfect, but then again, neither is Canada or any other country.

Personally, I'd rather have dealings with the USA than about 90% of the other countries in the world.

[uOttawaMan]

Umm.. because I don't think we should all be sent off to fight and die and put our country in debt to do something that could be achieved through other means kthnx.

[tml12]

Canada should have no dealing with the U.S. since it has been infact hijacked by a small cabal of billionaire gangsters. (has for almost a 100 years)

Hmmm. "No dealing with the USA"???

Unless we were to cultivate a whole lot of other trade partners very quickly, that would lead to national bankruptcy.

Better get all your savings converted to sheckels or dinaries, or maybe euros, before that step is taken, because Canadian cash wouldn't be worth the paper it's printed on.

Sorry. I don't particularly want to live in a 3rd world country.

The USA is by no means perfect, but then again, neither is Canada or any other country.

Personally, I'd rather have dealings with the USA than about 90% of the other countries in the world.

Good post PocketRocket...

[Army Guy]

Canadian Patriot:

Iraq in question prior to 1991 was the most prosperous nation in the middle east. Saddam Hussein though i don't like the guy never gassed his own people.

It was a gas attack from Iran it was proven that a soviet based gas was used on the Iraqi's during their conflict with Iran.

I take it your talking about the Gas attack on Halabja a Iraqi kurdish town thought to have Iranian soldiers in it. There are plenty of western links that blame the Iranians for this attack and discount the eye witiness reports that they clearly seen aircraft with Iraqi markings on them dropping bombs. Not arty shells as the western intel state( and we know how good thier intel is) The same group that reported WMD in Iraq.

But this is not the only town that was gassed over the years, who are you blaming those on the Iranians as well. Aside from the gas attacks, Sadam and his motly crew are responsable for killing thousands of kurds with conventional arms. some of the links below compare his actions with the Kurds to the Nazi's death camps.

Kurds.

proof of attacks

My Webpage

Dutch court

My Webpage

In a 24 hour period america dropped the equivilent of 250 hiroshima bombs taking out infrastructure.

Where do you get your info from, One hiroshima bomb is equal to 13,000 tones of TNT, the best the americans did was 15,000 tons of bombs, not TNT on the opening day.

Your calculations would mean Coalition forces dropped 3,250,000 tonnes of TNT in 24 hours. when in fact the entire war the entire coalition dropped on 88,500 tonnes of bombs. NOT even close.

www.danshistory.com/operations.shtml#storm

www.mindfully.org/Reform/2002/American-War-Airpower.htm

Bombs hit markets,power stations, businesses, homes and killed 250,000 people overnight. Iraq the first time was caused when Hussein wanted to raise the price of Oil and showed a little independance

Can you prove this number or do you make this up as you go along.

Iraq without Hussein has actually become worse. America is manufacturing their own enemy putting on a fancy show while the Bush/Cheney administration keeps grabbing power behind closed doors. The "OIL" also plays a big part.

Can you prove that Iraq is better off with out Sadam. And are you saying we should have left him alone.

Your whole post is suspect...He uses his opposite hand in the video alot

He is also wearing a "gold" watch which is again'st his beleifs.

Perhaps it was his stunt double....

[fixer1]

I do not think that anyone can say with a straight face that Saddam was a nice guy and a good leader of Iraq. I also have no doubt that he did commit many acts of violence on his people. He was a tryranrt, even though he did one time hold elections. But when only one name is on the ballot you can hardly say it was democracy.

I do not believe the war in Iraq was just and I am glad Canada satyed out of it. I do believe that the war in Afghanistanwas a just war and I am glad Canada can help there in small ways. This just means that we here in Canada can make our own decisions about things and not just always be one with the USA. Our releationship with the US will probably get a little better now that Maartin is gone, but that does not mean we will now go instep with the USA in all things. We first need to bolster our army and secure our own country. We need to be able to protect our lands and be proud of our armed forces. While I am all for a good releationship with the USA, I believe first we need to have a good self image about Canada. After that we can work on other things

[Army Guy]

Then lets just declare to the world that Canada thinks the war is was unjust. But that does not mean we have to sit on the side lines and piont our fingers ever chance we get. Lets come up with an solution, lets take the lead in rebuilding this nation. It's what we were once known for peace keepers and peace makers.

Lets forget about why the war began and who's at fault, and deal with the problem at hand. Which is really the people of Iraq, and rebuilding a nation. But everone is caught up in "it's an american mess let them clean it up." History is showing us that they can not clean it up alone, it needs to be a world effort. And whom is doing all the suffering for our inactions. Yes the same people who the peace crowd say are dying in large numbers. Are we just as guilty for not doing anything.

So that leaves us with two opitions get involved, or Shut TF-up.

[tml12]

Then lets just declare to the world that Canada thinks the war is was unjust. But that does not mean we have to sit on the side lines and piont our fingers ever chance we get. Lets come up with an solution, lets take the lead in rebuilding this nation. It's what we were once known for peace keepers and peace makers.

Lets forget about why the war began and who's at fault, and deal with the problem at hand. Which is really the people of Iraq, and rebuilding a nation. But everone is caught up in "it's an american mess let them clean it up." History is showing us that they can not clean it up alone, it needs to be a world effort. And whom is doing all the suffering for our inactions. Yes the same people who the peace crowd say are dying in large numbers. Are we just as guilty for not doing anything.

So that leaves us with two opitions get involved, or Shut TF-up.

Agreed...excellent post Army Guy!!!

[Black Dog]

Lets forget about why the war began and who's at fault, and deal with the problem at hand. Which is really the people of Iraq, and rebuilding a nation. But everone is caught up in "it's an american mess let them clean it up." History is showing us that they can not clean it up alone, it needs to be a world effort. And whom is doing all the suffering for our inactions. Yes the same people who the peace crowd say are dying in large numbers. Are we just as guilty for not doing anything.

I disagree. the responsibility for restoring Iraq belongs to Iraqis. Foreign meddling is what got them into this mess: no amount of foreign meddling will get them out. We can help, but I don't think any assistance rendered under the auspices of a foreign military occuipation will recieve much support.

[Army Guy]

Blackdog:

I disagree. the responsibility for restoring Iraq belongs to Iraqis.

Are they capable of doing this by themselfs ,right now.

Foreign meddling is what got them into this mess:

Even you will have to agree that the Sadam Regime had to be stopped.

no amount of foreign meddling will get them out. We can help, but I don't think any assistance rendered under the auspices of a foreign military occuipation will recieve much support.

I disagree, they are many organizations through out the world that can provide funding, expertise and equipment needed to rebuild Iraq. But before this can happen the people have to want it, there has to be peace, either brought to bear militarily or by the people of Iraq themselfs.

Canada has alot more to offer than just military forces.

[Black Dog]

Are they capable of doing this by themselfs ,right now.

Are we capable of helping them is a better question. To answer yours: I don't know if tehy are. But I'd lke to give them the chance.

Even you will have to agree that the Sadam Regime had to be stopped.

I'll agree that Saddam Hussein was an inhumane monster and a thug. But whether he "had" to be stopped and whether doing so was our responsibility is another issue altogether. Bad as he was, Saddam was a symptom of a larger problem which is the continued meddling by foreign powers with economic, political and military interests in the region. When you consider the role the west (though perhaps north would be more accurate, given the Soviet's machinations in the region) had in shaping the modern day Mid East (by supporting certain nations and certain rulers at certain times and others at others) intervention, even to rid the world of a bad guy, starts looking like more of the same old.

I disagree, they are many organizations through out the world that can provide funding, expertise and equipment needed to rebuild Iraq. But before this can happen the people have to want it, there has to be peace, either brought to bear militarily or by the people of Iraq themselfs.

Again, I find your confidence in our ability to fix a mess we created to be misplaced. Let's put it this way: if the Iraqis want peace, there will be peace. If they ask for our help, we should provide it. But for God's sake, we need to stop acting as though we have know what's best for them and have all the answers. The whole Iraq situation is a glaring example of the folly of that belief.

[Army Guy]

Black dog:

Are we capable of helping them is a better question.

If there was a concerted effort by many of the leading world powers i'd say Yes, Can Canada alone make a difference again i'd say yes, but not one that would show fruit for many years.

To answer yours: I don't know if tehy are. But I'd lke to give them the chance.

I don't think that they are capable of doing this alone, i think it would again take many years of effort just to get the ball roling and Iraqi people self sufficent.

I'll agree that Saddam Hussein was an inhumane monster and a thug. But whether he "had" to be stopped and whether doing so was our responsibility is another issue altogether. Bad as he was, Saddam was a symptom of a larger problem which is the continued meddling by foreign powers with economic, political and military interests in the region. When you consider the role the west (though perhaps north would be more accurate, given the Soviet's machinations in the region) had in shaping the modern day Mid East (by supporting certain nations and certain rulers at certain times and others at others) intervention, even to rid the world of a bad guy, starts looking like more of the same old

So we agree he was a scumbag, were we differ is what we should do with scumbags. So where do we make a stand at what piont do we say enough.

I will agree to a certain piont that foreign meddling is a problem, however it's a small one. And it works both ways you can't tell me that Sadam did not take advantage of this when ever he could. On top of that who made him attack Iran, or annex Kuwait, and wipe out the kurds. Sadam was no pupet ,he pulled his own strings.

The only question we have created by attacking Iraq and wiping out his gang is "why" just Sadam why not all the Bad guy's including those whose nations really don't offer anything of valve such as oil.

Such as Rwanda. I think both sides of the coin is to blame the Hawks because thiers no monie in it and the peaceniks because it's to violent or not our problem as it does not effect us.

Sometimes you just got to do whats right, who decides that in the world. we have already decided what is right and wrong we just need to enforce it.

Again, I find your confidence in our ability to fix a mess we created to be misplaced. Let's put it this way: if the Iraqis want peace, there will be peace. If they ask for our help, we should provide it. But for God's sake, we need to stop acting as though we have know what's best for them and have all the answers. The whole Iraq situation is a glaring example of the folly of that belief.

It's not misplaced i know it to be true i've seen it happen more times that i can count, but it takes commitment and money... The everyday Iraqi does want peace, it's the extremist that won't allow it.

If you find my confidence to fix the mess is misplaced, then how would we help if they ask for it.

I did not say we had all the answers,and if enough of the world wanted to i believe we could fix anything. but i do know what they want, they want what everybody in a war zone wants "Peace".

and your right the whole situation is a glaring example of failure, it's time for us to declare it a failure and find a new solution. Whats wrong with that do, you always give up so easily.