Riverwind Posted September 11, 2005 Report Share Posted September 11, 2005 The best way to deal with totalitarian regimes is to trade with them.I used to think that way, however, the Chinese gov't has been ruthless about preventing democratic reforms even as it opens up its economy. It heavily censors all internet content to ensure that Chinese people are not educated about the reality of the outside world even though they appear to have access to the latest technology. To make matters worse, the Chinese gov't has been indoctrinating it young people with a vicious type of nationalism that encourages hatred and contempt for non-Chinese (particularly Japanese) . The recent protests against Japan were examples of how the Chinese gov't uses this latent hostility towards others to deflect attention from itself.In short, if the world ignores human rights in China today the world risks creating a monster that will undermine world stability for decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theloniusfleabag Posted September 11, 2005 Report Share Posted September 11, 2005 Dear August1991, Would it make sense to refuse to buy apples from a poor farmer because he is poor and lives in a shack?Of course not, and it is not 'that simple case' here. The best way to deal with totalitarian regimes is to trade with them.Why didn't we think of that before!? We could have had Hitler and Stalin still with us! (Well, longer, anyway) Seriously, is the best way to end slavery to continue trading with the slaver? Never. Is it possible that continued trade might one day end the slavery? Maybe. To say, "Well, we'll just have to wait untill they enlighten themselves, the labour costs are just too good to be true!", is to grant approval. As I had argued with Hugo, 'granting rights' is solely at the whim of the holder of power. If the poor apple farmer is not 'granted basic human rights' from his overseers, how is failing to act on injustice any better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 11, 2005 Report Share Posted September 11, 2005 We could have had Hitler and Stalin still with us! (Well, longer, anyway)Ultimately, that is how we dealt with Stalin. And it worked. Hitler is a different matter. The Chinese government is not aggressive to the outside world, with the possible exception of Taiwan.Seriously, is the best way to end slavery to continue trading with the slaver? Never.China is not a country of slavery and the vast majority of Chinese are not slaves. They are simply very, very, bone-weary poor. Most Canadians know little about such poverty and their opinions about it strike me as the smug rich feeling sorry for the impoverished.It heavily censors all internet content to ensure that Chinese people are not educated about the reality of the outside world even though they appear to have access to the latest technology. To make matters worse, the Chinese gov't has been indoctrinating it young people with a vicious type of nationalism that encourages hatred and contempt for non-Chinese (particularly Japanese) . The recent protests against Japan were examples of how the Chinese gov't uses this latent hostility towards others to deflect attention from itself.Far be it from me to defend the Chinese government but I don't see what this has to do with trade. Do you have any idea of the political opinions of the shop clerk where you do your shopping? Do you have any idea of how many different people around the world are involved in producing a pencil?Trade is a wonderful thing because it truly is person-to-person, albeit anonymous. If a Canadian wants to undermine the power of the Chinese government, the best thing to do is to trade with someone in China. In short, if the world ignores human rights in China today the world risks creating a monster that will undermine world stability for decades.Compared to the Soviet Union, the Chinese government is a paper tiger. When Mao died and Deng Tsiao-Ping overthrew the Gang of Four, any danger receded tremendously. Let's keep things in perspective here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theloniusfleabag Posted September 11, 2005 Report Share Posted September 11, 2005 Dear August1991, Compared to the Soviet Union, the Chinese government is a paper tiger. When Mao died and Deng Tsiao-Ping overthrew the Gang of Four, any danger receded tremendously. Let's keep things in perspective here.The 'Gang of Four" was purged, rather than overthrown. Deng wasn't well liked by anyone, so he can't really be seen as riding a 'white charger'. As to 'keeping things in perspective', China is gearing up as much economically as they are militarily, and is the only country that seems to be looking to challenge Bush's assertation (before congress) that 'no one will be EVER allowed to rival, or even come close, to the military superiority if the USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montgomery Burns Posted September 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2005 PocketRocket: Perhaps it's because there was actual PROOF that Al-Qaeda was in Afghanistan, whereas the stories of them being in Iraq were, by the Bush administration's own admission, just stories. What the hell? I've typed loads of proof on this forum of Al Qaeda/Iraq links. There is simply no doubt that they were linked. This is just some examples of the links. Because I am tired of repeatedly typing out the evidence of Iraq/Al Qaeda links And there is more. Read Stephen Hayes' book. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have never seen any of my posts debunking the ludicrous "there was no link between Al Qaeda and Iraq" mantra. And the Bush administration never said they were "just stories"; they repeatedly talked about the links between the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theloniusfleabag Posted September 11, 2005 Report Share Posted September 11, 2005 Dear Montgomery Burns, This is just some examples of the links. Because I am tired of repeatedly typing out the evidence of Iraq/Al Qaeda links This website is garbage, they can't even spell. Some credible links, please. Perhaps the 9/11 commission report? The CIA? Saddam himself?they repeatedly talked about the links between the two.They also repeatedly hurled unfounded accusations, later found to be lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted September 12, 2005 Report Share Posted September 12, 2005 Look at how much stuff you have in your house. Now go around and read where these products where made. I bet you find a metric shittonne of stuff you have is made in China. We already do massive trade with them regardless of their human rights track record. It is also cheaper for North American companies to have their manufacturing plants in China. ALOT CHEAPER!. Most of your electronics you buy come from China. Most of your computer parts you use to post on this forum are MADE IN CHINA. -- And Montgomery Burns, you are right off your rocker. I have read everything you said and I just cannot read anymore from you. WTF there is an 'ignore' feature here? And saying you brow beat good ol Black Dog in a freakin Anne Coulter thread? She is lucky to even be mentioned on the same forum I visit. Don't ever make that mistake again. If you believe all she says then you are about as missguided as Dubbya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 12, 2005 Report Share Posted September 12, 2005 Look at how much stuff you have in your house. Now go around and read where these products where made. I bet you find a metric shittonne of stuff you have is made in China. We already do massive trade with them regardless of their human rights track record. It is also cheaper for North American companies to have their manufacturing plants in China. ALOT CHEAPER!.In 2003, we imported about $18 billion worth of stuff from China and we sold them about $4.7 billion. (Statcan)In 2003, our GDP was about $1,016 billion dollars. (Statcan) That means imports from China represent about 2% of our GDP. ---- Frankly however, if our trade with Chinese ever rose to 20% of GDP, I would have no problem. Do you make your own clothing? Do you grow your own food? 100 years ago, most Canadian families did those tasks themselves. Nowadays, most Canadian families have "outsourced" this work - and they are better off for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
err Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 I think the USA's record is worse... killing 1.5 million Iraqis between the first and second wars (through sanctioning medicine and water purification equipment)....If you're referring to the United Nations sanctioned sanctions on Iraq, how can you only blame America? Also, you're claim of 1.5 million Iraqi's being killed as a result of the first and second gulf wars is a joke. Medicine and water purification equipment were not sanctioned under the U.N. passed sanctions on Iraq. The USA bullied the UN... They're good at being bullies.... Your claim that water purification equipment was not santioned under the UN may be true, but when Canadian companies tried to deliver water purification equipment, they were told in no uncertain terms that they were to take it home... On Sept. 17, 2000, Professor Thomas J. Nagy of George Washington University made public a seven page document prepared by the US Defense Intelligence Agency. This report, hidden by the government for ten years, outlined the Gulf Allies' plan to set the stage for a water-born genocide in that country. The report reads: "Iraq had gone to considerable trouble to provide pure water for its population... importing specialized equipment and purification chemicals... a shortage of pure drinking water... could lead to increased incidents, if not epidemics of disease... Full degradation of the water treatment system will probably take at least six months." The Agency's report "was circulated to all major Allied commands."This intelligence report identified not only bombing targets, but those specific chemicals and specialized water purification equipment which the US and British then added to their list of embargoed items, to be certain the genocide would succeed. read the whole article below.... US Tsunamis in Iraq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcqueen625 Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 Democracy is a lot like self-esteem, you can't give what you don't possess yourself, and Canada is not a democracy, we are in fact nothing but an elected dictatorship. We don't get to pick our leaders as they do in the United States, those leader in Canada are picked by the Party at a convention, and once picked we do not get to vote for them. All the leader then has to do is get elected in their particular riding and they remain as leader. If their Party forms the government we are stuck not only with them as leader but we are also subject to their particular agenda. This happens in Canada both federally and provincially. For us to have a true democracy we need to have our leaders run at-large. If that were to have happened, we never would have had that embarrassment Chretien as a PM. We have no checks and balances in our system since the people who are supposed to be the overseers, The Senate are appointed by the PM from the ranks of the Party faithful and they simply rubber-stamp and legislation that comes throgh that House. We have national elections in this country being decided by one Province, Ontario, so it makes the votes of the rest of Canadians useless. In order to fix this we need to have a system whereby we have equal representation form each province and territory regardless of population just as they do in the U.S. to eliminate the possibility of one province asserting their will over the rest of the country. We need to have a equal and elected Senate so as to have real sober second thought, which under the present system the Senate has become simply a reward for Party loyalty. There is simply nothing democratic about the Canadian political system as it now stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
err Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 we are in fact nothing but an elected dictatorship. The Canadian public is so dumb... why don't they vote for the guy who isn't a dictator ??? ... Or do they hide the fact that they are dictators when they run in the election, and only suprise the public once they get in ???We don't get to pick our leaders as they do in the United States, those leader in Canada are picked by the Party at a convention, and once picked we do not get to vote for them. No ??? I must have been confused all those times I went to the polls.... All the leader then has to do is get elected in their particular riding and they remain as leader. Wait a second... you're going too fast... If we don't vote for them, how do they get "elected" in their riding....We have national elections in this country being decided by one Province, Ontario, so it makes the votes of the rest of Canadians useless. Doesn't it peeve you off about how Ontario voted the Block Quebequos as the official opposition ???We need to have a equal and elected Senate so as to have real sober second thought, Speaking of SOBER, shouldn't you have waited until you were sober to write your post.???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterkush Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 We dont push imperialism anymore we dont have terroist attacking us and we sure dont want america's idea of what freedom is look for another pusher MR BUTCH Canada is a free nation and we dont want others to push their idea on us what freedom is why would we want that for others America's freedom entails too much oil grubbing for our tastes All hail Chretien the best prime minister ever he stood toe to toe with the American bush man and said no america keep your electronic polling station freedom to yourself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafless Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 mastercush Who is WE? Freedom comes with a COST and it sure NOT FOUNDED by Quebec. Canada and the U.S. is ONE and don't think for a moment it isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
err Posted October 14, 2005 Report Share Posted October 14, 2005 Canada and the U.S. is ONE and don't think for a moment it isn't. Even if you corrected your grammar, you'd still be grossly wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafless Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 err Tell me err, er, how does Canada stand alone in comparison to the U.S. and explain to me how soverign we really are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcqueen625 Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 Imparting democracy to other countries is like imparting self-esteem to someone, if you don't have it or believe it it yourself you simply cannot impart it. Canada, contrary to popular belief is not a democracy and never was, we are a constitutional monarchy in which the crown (Parliament, the Senate, and now the Supreme Court) have all of the power and the people have none. Think about it! In reality we get to elect new dictators every time an election is called. We have no recall system where a government can be removed from power if they are not living up to their promises. We are simply stuck with them until their mandate runs out, and that folks is not democracy! In fact what influence we had in government disappeared with the passage of the Charter, because it bestowed on our appointed, and unaccountable judiciary the ability to order our elected politicians around. They can order Parliament to change certain laws, and even go so far as to tell them how those laws are to read. This is not democracy. The fact is what we have right now is a government being run by a corporate agenda. Paul Helyer, stated in his book, "The Evil Empire"; "If the people of Canada think for one minute that their elected politicians are making the decisions in this country, they are living in fantasyland." Paul Helyer's contention is that these decisions are in reality being made by multinational corporations who's only goal is driven by how much profit they can generate, and they don't want government's to have the ability to interfere with those profits. Is anyone really naive enough to think people like Paul Martin gives two hoots about the ability of Canadian's to better their lots in life. The reality is that Paul Martin and his family owned corporations have basically moved those operations offshore so the Canadian taxman cannot get their hands on his money. His ships are for the most part registered in Burmuda or some such country, but not in Canada. Years ago K.C. Irving moved the family assets to Bermuda and made it a stipulation in his will that his offspring, in order to inherit would have to do so in Bermuda, so estate taxes could not be collected. I'm sure if more Canadian $billionaires were scrutinized we would find similar stories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafless Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 mcqueen625 You wrote- " Canada contrary to popular belief is not a demcracy and never was, we are a constitutional monarchy." We are a constitutional monarchy but ruled under a 'parliamentry democracy' but I agree with everthing you said. I would also like to add the Liberal stranglehold on everthing political does not really help matters either with their dictatorial style of governing. A good natured Conservative leader could increase the democratic politcal decision making to appease Canadian citizen's who would like to see some concerns agreed on by the majority a reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest eureka Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 Conservatism is, by definition, anti-democratic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
err Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 I would also like to add the Liberal stranglehold on everthing political does not really help matters either with their dictatorial style of governing. Their relentless implementation of Conservative fiscal policy is definitely a problem.A good natured Conservative leader could increase the democratic politcal decision making .... A good natured Conservative leader.... What big eyes you have, leader, and what big teeth... The better to make decisions with....What do you really mean by this fantasy-land tripe ??? to appease Canadian citizen's who would like to see some concerns agreed on by the majority a reality. Are you suggesting that the Conservatives are suddenly going to start having referenda to find out what the public wants... or don't you think it a bit more likely that they'll implement Conservative policies, much as Paul Martin is now.... except maybe the Conservatives will send our boys to play cannon fodder over in Iraq.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moderateamericain Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 isnt canada really exercising democracy? by choosing not to get involved? Isnt that the point of Democracy to choose for yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
err Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 isnt canada really exercising democracy? by choosing not to get involved? Isnt that the point of Democracy to choose for yourself? The war in Iraq had NOTHING TO DO WITH DEMOCRACY... It had EVERYTHING TO DO WITH OIL and POWER in the middle-east. If the USA really wanted to promote democracy, why didn't they want Saudi Arabia to become a democracy.... I'll help you with the answer... The USA has a deal in place with the Saudi royal family to guarantee them their power, and the USA will use military might if she must to prevent democracy in Saudi Arabia. How about the democratically elected Mossedegh government in Iran in the 50's... The USA participated in a coup to tear down this government that wanted to nationalize their OIL.... (note that this word is recurring when discussing the USA and democracy)... This lead to the reign of the Shah of Iran, and the extremist state that continues to exist there today... Here, again, we see that the USA sees that the power of OIL is more important than the power of Democracy.... Enter Hugo Chavez... He has lots of OIL... and is Demoratically elected... But he marches to a different drummer. And the USA partipated in a coup to take him out of power in 2002... and you can bet they'll try again.... I'd say that the USA's definition of DEMOCRACY is spelled "HYPOCRACY". And I'm glad Canada has the good sense to stay clear of that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckcat Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 I'd say that the USA's definition of DEMOCRACY is spelled "HYPOCRACY".And I'm glad Canada has the good sense to stay clear of that.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> BRAVO!! the US is also meddling in our affairs... they have a special interest in seeing the end of our medicare system... have big designs on our fresh water... and there's some talk about US money being funneled to Quebec separatists in a divide-and-conquer scheme... there are psychotic people within the power structure of the US that will do anything to have their way... you can find their lap-dogs within the ranks of the Conservative Party (no longer Progressive Conservatives, but regressive neo-cons)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaro Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 err and canuck cat, I think you owe moderateamerican an apology, clearly you misunderstood what they said. And yes it is just plain old democracy, its the kind of thing that should happen far more often. When public opinion is widely known and accepted then it should be short hop to implementation (so long as constitutional standards are met) baring very significant cause (information not available to the public). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
err Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 err and canuck cat, I think you owe moderateamerican an apology, clearly you misunderstood what they said.And yes it is just plain old democracy, its the kind of thing that should happen far more often. When public opinion is widely known and accepted then it should be short hop to implementation (so long as constitutional standards are met) baring very significant cause (information not available to the public). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> To ModerateAmerican, If I misread you, I apologize... Looking at your post again, it was not really against Canada's position. My response was not an attack at you, but it is how I feel. 'Pologies again, and have a nice day... Err. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckcat Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 err and canuck cat, I think you owe moderateamerican an apology, clearly you misunderstood what they said. I wasn't replying to moderateamerican. i don't see how one could think that... am i now owed an apology?... how silly... c'est comme on n'a aucune de balls... However, I do believe that individual americans cannot hide behind the actions of their government. It is time that individual americans take responsibility for the terror they have spread... and bear punishment for it. Remember, this monsterous president and his den of daemons were elected, not once, but twice, by these americans. Reparations need to be paid - pay now or pay more later, as they say. Do 'moderate' americans support only moderate torture? Do they burn the flesh of Iraqi civilians with only a moderate amount of white phosphorous - or 'willie pete' as they fondly call this horrible chemical weapon? Are there only a moderate amount of secret prisons in 'the new europe' where hapless souls are interred forever without trial or charge? Heavy stuff, eh? But hope springs eternal... this too shall pass... We can look forward to the day when Americans become part of the solution, not the problem. It will be a long road for them... and as Canadians we will suffer with them for their folly... Mais maintenant le monde, il dois dire, ""j'accuse""... that president and the vice-president are mass murderers... death for money (Oil that is, black gold, Texas tea) ... burn baby, burn... keep killing the evil and good will grow in its place... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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