Why isn't Canada helping to promote democracy?

[moderateamericain]

err and canuck cat, I think you owe moderateamerican an apology, clearly you misunderstood what they said.

And yes it is just plain old democracy, its the kind of thing that should happen far more often. When public opinion is widely known and accepted then it should be short hop to implementation (so long as constitutional standards are met) baring very significant cause (information not available to the public).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To ModerateAmerican,

If I misread you, I apologize... Looking at your post again, it was not really against Canada's position. My response was not an attack at you, but it is how I feel. 'Pologies again, and have a nice day...

Err.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no apology is necessary, you did not attack me directly. As far as individual americans being "punished" for voting for Bush, whos going to admister it? Canada . Awfully assumptious of you to assume i condone everything my government does. Now it may seem that I do, because i look for solid proof of accusations before i believe it. But i consider that practical. To each his own i guess.

[canuckcat]

As far as individual americans being "punished" for voting for Bush, whos going to admister it? Canada    .  Awfully assumptious of you to assume i condone everything my government does.  Now it may seem that I do, because i look for solid proof of accusations before i believe it.  But i consider that practical.  To each his own i guess.

moderateamerican,

Thank you. I think you just made my point and even strenghtened it - it would seem that nobody is responsible for this war and all the silly crap that has been happening down in the USA and overseas in the name of security. Who feels more secure now? The Islamic terrorists sure are better off... and there are hundreds of times more of them now than before. You say you don't condone yada yada... that's just the same as saying you aren't responsible or "were just following orders"... somebody voted for this president... and somebody re-elected him... isn't it time that Americans take some individual responsibility for the actions of their government? If you say that you have no control, then I say you have no democracy. But I know you have democracy, so you do have control... and ergo you have responsibility!

With respect to your little slight towards Canada "punishing you"... I think that was an unwarranted insult against Canada... (especially that roll-eyes smilie, that hurt really bad). Nobody wants to change your diapers... we have enough of our own shite up here...

Also please remember that individual Canadians are first to rise to your defense... also your worst critics... I've seen this many times where such harsh critique comes from a canuck towards an american... but put the canuck in with an international crowd and canucks will always be on the american side... or at least this is what i've experienced... individual results may vary... sous réserve de légères differences

Anyways... enough of this...

happy American Thanksgiving... all the best to you and yours...

they are playing Christmas music in the malls up here... yikes!!!

i know that you as an amerikin know nothing of this kind of commercialism, haha

[PocketRocket]

You say you don't condone yada yada... that's just the same as saying you aren't responsible or "were just following orders"... somebody voted for this president... and somebody re-elected him... isn't it time that Americans take some individual responsibility for the actions of their government?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That depends. Are you willing to say that you are responsible for the sponsorship scandal???

[moderateamericain]

err and canuck cat, I think you owe moderateamerican an apology, clearly you misunderstood what they said.

And yes it is just plain old democracy, its the kind of thing that should happen far more often. When public opinion is widely known and accepted then it should be short hop to implementation (so long as constitutional standards are met) baring very significant cause (information not available to the public).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To ModerateAmerican,

If I misread you, I apologize... Looking at your post again, it was not really against Canada's position. My response was not an attack at you, but it is how I feel. 'Pologies again, and have a nice day...

Err.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no apology is necessary, you did not attack me directly. As far as individual americans being "punished" for voting for Bush, whos going to admister it? Canada . Awfully assumptious of you to assume i condone everything my government does. Now it may seem that I do, because i look for solid proof of accusations before i believe it. But i consider that practical. To each his own i guess.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

canuckcat,

I apologize for giving you the assumption that i think canada is inferior to the united states, sometimes in haste, i dont choose my words correctly. What i was really attacking was the notion that your average American should be punished for voting for bush. I think its safe to say he hoodwinked a few of us. Also you have to look at the situation as well. John kerry was not a well liked candidate. If someone like John Mccain had run i surely would have voted for him of George Bush. However the American people did vote for George Bush. And to be Honest, I will not be made to feel that i should have to apologize for following the democract process of voting for who i felt (at the time) had the best intrest of the United states at heart and more importanly for me. I think its at best foolhardy for you to come here and say Americans should be punished for who they vote for. How is that a democracy?

[PocketRocket]

ModAmericain:

Based on what you said in your last post, I have to agree in at least one regard.

As much as I dislike Bush, Kerry was simply a non-starter.

A limp noodle. A flat tire. An empty bottle.

I could go on and on.

During your last election, I have to say that if I was an American, I would have been longing for the days of Ross Perot, or ANY other 3rd party candidate to vote for.

With the American system, which is essentially a 2 party system, sometimes as a voter you're between a rock and a hard place.

(Edited to add:) Actually, that's not far off from where we are in Canada right now.

Three choices, all of them bad.

[moderateamericain]

ModAmericain:

Based on what you said in your last post, I have to agree in at least one regard.

As much as I dislike Bush, Kerry was simply a non-starter.

A limp noodle. A flat tire. An empty bottle.

I could go on and on.

During your last election, I have to say that if I was an American, I would have been longing for the days of Ross Perot, or ANY other 3rd party candidate to vote for.

With the American system, which is essentially a 2 party system, sometimes as a voter you're between a rock and a hard place.

(Edited to add:) Actually, that's not far off from where we are in Canada right now.

Three choices, all of them bad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats are real problem! 2 parties to choose from(realistically)

[tml12]

ModAmericain:

Based on what you said in your last post, I have to agree in at least one regard.

As much as I dislike Bush, Kerry was simply a non-starter.

A limp noodle. A flat tire. An empty bottle.

I could go on and on.

During your last election, I have to say that if I was an American, I would have been longing for the days of Ross Perot, or ANY other 3rd party candidate to vote for.

With the American system, which is essentially a 2 party system, sometimes as a voter you're between a rock and a hard place.

(Edited to add:) Actually, that's not far off from where we are in Canada right now.

Three choices, all of them bad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats are real problem! 2 parties to choose from(realistically)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably true, although this could vary from state to state.

[Biblio Bibuli]

With the American system, which is essentially a 2 party system, sometimes as a voter you're between a rock and a hard place.

(Edited to add:) Actually, that's not far off from where we are in Canada right now.

Three choices, all of them bad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For Americans voting is tough. They actually have to think before they choose.

For Canadians, voting is a song. It generaly goes something like:

"Well I don't know why I'm voting tonight,

I got the feeling that something ain't right,

Clowns to the left of me,

Jokers to the right, here I am,

Stuck in the middle with you,

Yes I'm stuck in the middle with you,

Stuck in the middle with you."

[PocketRocket]

BB: You missed your calling.

[Biblio Bibuli]

BB: You missed your calling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'M NOT A PLAGERIST!!

I was sure everyone would remember this song:

http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/reservoirdo...ddlewithyou.htm

BTW - Don't you agree that that's the customary way to cast a vote for those who are undecided? In the middle?

BTW II - Hey did you happen to find that most beautiful bouteille in the world? And if you did, was she flipping flipping?

[PocketRocket]

BB: You missed your calling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'M NOT A PLAGERIST!!

Did I imply that you are???

No.

I was sure everyone would remember this song:

http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/reservoirdo...ddlewithyou.htm

Yes, I remember the song, and thought your rendition pretty funny.

Hence my comment "missed your calling".

Shoulda been a comedian.

BTW - Don't you agree that that's the customary way to cast a vote for those who are undecided? In the middle?

BTW II - Hey did you happen to find that most beautiful bouteille in the world? And if you did, was she flipping flipping?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What the hell are you talking about here????

[Biblio Bibuli]

Shoulda been a comedian.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is probably the highest compliment I have been paid on any forum.

The "Hilarious post" one I got not so long ago (the day before yesterday) was no slouch either.

I like this place!

But wouldn't you know it ... just today I got a call from the people at the old NPWBN, and they want me back.

I declined.

But I'll go there to look around, from time to time, just to see if there are any of the old faces from the old NPWBN over there.

http://community.canada.com/[email protected]@.ee7d314 .

Did you ever work for the NPWBN?

[PocketRocket]

The NPWHeyWhat????

Can't say as I have, or I'd probably know what or who it/they is/are.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear PocketRocket,

But wouldn't you know it ... just today I got a call from the people at the old NPWBN, and they want me back.

I declined.

The old National Post forum....as I recall, there was a terrible 'troll' infestation just before it became defunct a couple of years ago.

It seems Yodeler (before being banned as..a 'troll'...) recalled it for some reason...

Yodeler  Nov 12 2005, 12:34 PM Post #15 

Full Member

Group: Banned

Posts: 199

Joined: 3-October 05

Member No.: 1260

QUOTE(kimmy @ Nov 12 2005, 01:20 AM)

The messages you replied to were 2 years old.  Michael Hardner has not visited the forum in 6 months.  -k

I remember MH from when I went through my apprenticeship at NPWBN.

Never liked the man much, but I must say one thing ... he was always at his very best at federal election times. We even had a saying about him that evolved from those times, I think ... "When Michael Hardner speaks people listen." And from his reviews of Hollywood movies, of course. And car races, etc. etc. etc..

I bet you he's itching to come out, now that the big federal election is upon us.

From what I remember he's a bit of a ditherer, but he always came out ahead at election times.

He wouldn't predict a clear Conservative majority though, so this is the perfect time for us NPWBN losers to show him what it FEELS like to be at the losing end.

So I hope he comes out.

Kooky, huh? Actually, PocketRocket, it is my contention that this 'troll' was previously Yodeler, then masterkush, etc to the tune of being responsible for approximately (and at least) 800-900 of the last 1000 'new members'.

[PocketRocket]

G'Day. T-BAG (I hope you don't mind my abbreviation of your nickname)

Wow. YODELER got booted too???

I totally missed that.

As for National Post Forum, it must have been before my time. I only got into the whole forum thing about 2 years ago, and generally tend to stick to one site.

But thanks for the info.

[Virgil]

Hhmmm. I didn't read all of the posts in this topic so please forgive me if any of my points have already been commented on.

Most people don't realize that Saddam Hussain actually treated most Iraqis better than portayed by the US press. All Iraqis had free health care under Saddam. All Iraqis had free post-secondary education.... Something that Bush won't ever give Americans.... But you won't see the Bush-lovers ever mentioning things like that....

Alright, so, how is free post secondary education a good thing? Should people not have to work to go places? It was free for women in the Soviet Union, does knowing that convince you the Soviets should have won the Cold War? One positive benefit does not make a country.

As for free health care, it's either fake or very cheap (as in poor doctors and such) judging by the pictures shown to me by my uncle who worked in Iraq for the U.N. prior to U.S. invasion.

The situation for Iraqis in less urban areas were less than terrible.

A downside I see to U.S. invasion is that it does incite the expansion of terrorism in the Middle East, consider that anytime one terrorist is killed, several freinds and relatives join in a war of vengeance against the U.S. I would probably blame the hundreds of years of foreigne controle over the Middle East and her affairs for the terrorism.

As for reasons why Canada is not participating in the Iraq war, it would lose us favor with the U.N. Canada's poor military has already been mentioned, we cannot afford to be a hated country because we cannot defend ourselves. Unfortunately.

[Montgomery Burns]

I find it sad that upon the cusp of the liberation of the Iraqi people--instead of jumping in there and helping--we stood on the sidelines secretly hoping that the whole thing would fail so that we could point to the Americans and say, "That's what you get for interfering with our greed for oil and Saddam's blood money".

It's bad enough that we've got this juvenile knee-jerk anti-American reflex that permeates virtually every policy decision in this country, but the UK went to Iraq too. They are our mother country, whom we have stood side-by-side and shoulder-to-shoulder with in some of the most terrible conflicts this world has ever seen--even going so far as to declare war in 1939 against a country that never did anything to us and was absolutely no threat to Canada.

If the UK could see that the Iraq war was a war that needed to be fought, why couldn't we?

I can't imagine what Tony Blair must've thought of us for our cowardly greedy decision. I can only hope that we are forgiven for our shameful stance.

[Guest eureka]

Free post secondary education is also held to be responsible for the Irish economic miracle. It used to be free in Britain, too, at a time when Britain led the world in many ways.

[Virgil]

Hmm. Back to Canada's military capabilities, our soldiers got to Afganistan on borrowed American transport planes. I am uncertain to what extent Candian troops would even be useful in Iraq.

And to those of us who say it is not our problem, is there not a minority population of Iraqis in Canada?

[err]

I find it sad that upon the cusp of the liberation of the Iraqi people--instead of jumping in there and helping--we stood on the sidelines secretly hoping that the whole thing would fail so that we could point to the Americans and say, "That's what you get for interfering with our greed for oil and Saddam's blood money". 

Well, I guess it was a good thing that the USA and Tony Blair got all those weapons of mass destruction that he was going to "get us" with.... By the way, how many did they get ????

If the UK could see that the Iraq war was a war that needed to be fought, why couldn't we?

I guess we couldn't see all those weapons of mass destruction as well as Tony could....

I can't imagine what Tony Blair must've thought of us for our cowardly greedy decision. I can only hope that we are forgiven for our shameful stance.

I think that history already shows that Canada's stance was "sensible" rather than "cowardly and greedy" as Montgomery would suggest....

[Army Guy]

Well, I guess it was a good thing that the USA and Tony Blair got all those weapons of mass destruction that he was going to "get us" with.... By the way, how many did they get ??

Your correct, there were no WMD, nor were there any terrorists links, However your not suggesting that the world would have been a better place with Sadams regime still in power.

I think that history already shows that Canada's stance was "sensible" rather than "cowardly and greedy" as Montgomery would suggest....

Sensible how, by telling Canadians that Canada would not take part in the Iraq invasion that it would not support this operation. Then order it's navy into the gulf to give assistance to the US fleet involved in the invasion. or by ordering it's martime surveilance aircraft to do the same.

The liberals knew well ahead of time that Iraq would not go so good and any military force sent over there would suffer alot of causulties "something that is not voter freindly" NATO threw Canada a bone and the liberals jumped all over it sending troops into Afgan the safer of the two.

There is no reason now to not get involved more than we are already,regardless of why the war was started thats a mout piont now. the Iraq solution requires more countries to get involved to establish the security Iraq needs so that the rebuilding process can begin. So that the Iraqis can get on with there lifes. That would be the sensiable thing to do .

[err]

Well, I guess it was a good thing that the USA and Tony Blair got all those weapons of mass destruction that he was going to "get us" with.... By the way, how many did they get ??

Your correct, there were no WMD, nor were there any terrorists links, However your not suggesting that the world would have been a better place with Sadams regime still in power.

I don't think there's too much of a question about it. The world is now very different than it was pre-Iraq-II. Muslims around the world are now lining up to be recruited into anti-American groups... like never before... So I wouldn't say that the world is safer at all.... or better off... unless of course you have shares in Exxon, BP, or Haliburton....

I think that history already shows that Canada's stance was "sensible" rather than "cowardly and greedy" as Montgomery would suggest....

Sensible how, by telling Canadians that Canada would not take part in the Iraq invasion that it would not support this operation. Then order it's navy into the gulf to give assistance to the US fleet involved in the invasion. or by ordering it's martime surveilance aircraft to do the same.

Maybe they wanted to be ready in case the situation changed. But I'll always take my hat of to Cretien for not involving Canada in the Iraq war. I know that we can't say the same about Harper though...

There is no reason now to not get involved more than we are already,regardless of why the war was started thats a mout piont now. the Iraq solution requires more countries to get involved to establish the security Iraq needs so that the rebuilding process can begin. So that the Iraqis can get on with there lifes. That would be the sensiable thing to do .

The USA pissed in Iraq... and while the piss is still boiling, I'd say "let the Americans sleep in it.... they made it"... Why should Canadian boys play cannon fodder for the USA's actions.... It's not like they're offering any of the oil....

[Army Guy]

I don't think there's too much of a question about it. The world is now very different than it was pre-Iraq-II. Muslims around the world are now lining up to be recruited into anti-American groups... like never before... So I wouldn't say that the world is safer at all.... or better off... unless of course you have shares in Exxon, BP, or Haliburton....

Thats not true, it is not becoming more popular with foreign muslims it's actually estamated that they make up only 10 % of the insurgents. Number of total insurgents are est at between 10,000 and 30,000. Compare those numbers to ones that are jioning the Iraq military, police,etc and you'll find that more Iraqi's are jioning the US coalitlition side than the insurgents side. What message does that send.

Even if they below estamates were off lets say by 100 % that leaves 100,000 insurgents out of 27 million. I'm not getting the same message as you are, this shows me that a majority of Iraqis want peace, and the either don't want to fight or want the changes that the US is offering.

On returning from a recent tour of Iraq, U.S. Sen. Joe Lieberman, a Democrat, wrote in the Wall Street Journal: "It is a war between 27 million and 10,000; 27 million Iraqis who want to live lives of freedom, opportunity and prosperity and roughly 10,000 terrorists who are either Saddam revanchists, Iraqi Islamic extremists or al-Qaida foreign fighters who know their wretched causes will be set back if Iraq becomes free and modern."

for insurg

My Webpage

My Webpage

Maybe they wanted to be ready in case the situation changed. But I'll always take my hat of to Cretien for not involving Canada in the Iraq war. I know that we can't say the same about Harper though...

You don't get it ...while the liberals were telling you and the rest of Canadians that Canada would have nothing to do with this operation, they ordered the navy our navy into the gulf to assist US naval forces involved in the Invasion of Iraq.

They were not sitting in some port awaiting for things to change they were in the gulf assisting US naval forces. So Cretien never keep his word. He lied to all of us.

And when the US asked for more, he agreed to send troops into Afgan to free up US forces there.

    The USA pissed in Iraq... and while the piss is still boiling, I'd say "let the Americans sleep in it.... they made it"... Why should Canadian boys play cannon fodder for the USA's actions.... It's not like they're offering any of the oil....

Again it's not about the US it's about the people in Iraq and rebuilding thier country. Why Canadians soldiers because this is what we do...it is what our military is good at. Would oil make any difference, would it justify our actions, would it justify our inactions ...it's not about oil but people.

[err]

I don't think there's too much of a question about it. The world is now very different than it was pre-Iraq-II. Muslims around the world are now lining up to be recruited into anti-American groups... like never before... So I wouldn't say that the world is safer at all.... or better off... unless of course you have shares in Exxon, BP, or Haliburton....

Thats not true, it is not becoming more popular with foreign muslims it's actually estamated that they make up only 10 % of the insurgents. Number of total insurgents are est at between 10,000 and 30,000. Compare those numbers to ones that are jioning the Iraq military, police,etc and you'll find that more Iraqi's are jioning the US coalitlition side than the insurgents side. What message does that send.

That they need jobs ???? Their old jobsite was blown up by a cruise missile ????

Even if they below estamates were off lets say by 100 % that leaves 100,000 insurgents out of 27 million. I'm not getting the same message as you are, this shows me that a majority of Iraqis want peace, and the either don't want to fight or want the changes that the US is offering. 

I think it would be the former... that most people, Muslim or Christian or Jewish, don't want to fight....

It seems to me that you are looking at Iraq... and Iraq only.... I'm looking at a bigger picture.... people who want to kill "westerners" in England, Spain, the USA, and even Canada.... The invasion of Iraq will have served better than any recruiting campaign that Osama Bin Laden could ever have mounted...

Maybe they wanted to be ready in case the situation changed. But I'll always take my hat of to Cretien for not involving Canada in the Iraq war. I know that we can't say the same about Harper though...

You don't get it ...while the liberals were telling you and the rest of Canadians that Canada would have nothing to do with this operation, they ordered the navy our navy into the gulf to assist US naval forces involved in the Invasion of Iraq.

They were not sitting in some port awaiting for things to change they were in the gulf assisting US naval forces. So Cretien never keep his word. He lied to all of us.

Did Canada have troops invading Iraq ??? I don't think so....

    The USA pissed in Iraq... and while the piss is still boiling, I'd say "let the Americans sleep in it.... they made it"... Why should Canadian boys play cannon fodder for the USA's actions.... It's not like they're offering any of the oil....

Again it's not about the US it's about the people in Iraq and rebuilding thier country. Why Canadians soldiers because this is what we do...it is what our military is good at. Would oil make any difference, would it justify our actions, would it justify our inactions ...it's not about oil but people.

The war was about OIL... and you'd have to be blind not to realize that. The "war" isn't over yet, and Canadian boys shouldn't be cleaning the toilet that the USA has made... It's the USA's mess... the got their access to Iraqi oil, now they can do the cleanup...

[Army Guy]

That they need jobs ???? Their old jobsite was blown up by a cruise missile ????

don't think there's too much of a question about it. The world is now very different than it was pre-Iraq-II. Muslims around the world are now lining up to be recruited into anti-American groups... like never before... So I wouldn't say that the world is safer at all.... or better off... unless of course you have shares in Exxon, BP, or Haliburton

Thats not true, it is not becoming more popular with foreign muslims it's actually estamated that they make up only 10 % of the insurgents. Number of total insurgents are est at between 10,000 and 30,000. Compare those numbers to ones that are jioning the Iraq military, police,etc and you'll find that more Iraqi's are jioning the US coalitlition side than the insurgents side. What message does that send.

It proves that they are more interested in getting on with thier lifes than fighting the US and coalition forces. As you suggested.

It seems to me that you are looking at Iraq... and Iraq only.... I'm looking at a bigger picture.... people who want to kill "westerners" in England, Spain, the USA, and even Canada.... The invasion of Iraq will have served better than any recruiting campaign that Osama Bin Laden could ever have mounted...

No i'm not, those guys that attacked England,Spain, etc were part of a small cell of terrorists of maybe 6 to 10 people out of the millions of Muslims in the world they make up what % of the total muslim population. your statement above makes it sound likes thousands are joining and they are not. Just a few radicals.

Did Canada have troops invading Iraq ??? I don't think so....

So let me get this straight you can assist in war operations again'st Iraqi forces, terrorists,and other hostile forces and not be considered actually taking part in the war on Iraq. Is that what you are saying.. Because that is what i am trying to tell you, that the Canadian Navy along with Maritime A/C assisted in operations again'st Iraq. The answer to your question is NO, Canadian troops did not land troops in Iraq, they did however take part in naval operations again'st

Iraq.

Our Liberal party lied to you and to the rest of us. Canadians did take part in the invasion of Iraq.

The war was about OIL... and you'd have to be blind not to realize that. The "war" isn't over yet, and Canadian boys shouldn't be cleaning the toilet that the USA has made... It's the USA's mess... the got their access to Iraqi oil, now they can do the cleanup...

That is your opinion, your entitled to it. but that is not the piont here is it. the piont is in order for the Iraqi people to recover from this Canada and the rest of the world are going to have to do something to establish security so that the regrowth of the nation can begin.

Sticking our heads in the sand and pionting out all the US mistakes are making is not the answer. what really matters here are the Iraqi people. Not who's mess it is. We already know who's mess it is, lets stop are childish behavior and just do something about it.