Have we abolished Christmas?

[betsy]

Something I notice in my little city - people greet using "Merry X'mas" now.   In fact, I notice store clerks perk up when I greet them Merry Christmas - and with big smiles (like they didn't expect that greeting), they enthusiastically answered right back the same!

Never heard "Happy Holidays" at all!  I suppose, that movement to eliminate "Merry Christmas" was a short-lived thingy.....at least, in this part of the world.  This place is quite diversified too. 

Edited December 26, 2018 by betsy

[Guest]

Just now, turningrite said:

Who, exactly, is whining? Certainly not me, as Eyeball seems to imply, mainly I think because it's convenient for him to believe this. I think it's time to seize the opportunity to move on and get religion out of the public realm altogether.

Certainly not you at all.  I'm talking about anyone who bangs on about any culture or traditions disappearing.  They all do it eventually.

I'm one of those who believe our only salvation lies in abolishing religion and promoting miscegenation and cultural appropriation.  Unless climate change gets us first, of course.

[Argus]

20 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Well, any colour, really.  Anyone who whines about their culture, language or traditions disappearing doesn't seem to realise that that is what those things do.  They all disappear eventually.  Suck it up, that's what I say.

Cultures don't all disappear. They may change over time. But not all change is good. And one can lament the loss of good traditions to be replaced by bad ones.

[dialamah]

On 12/23/2018 at 5:08 PM, dialamah said:

I have given and received "Merry Christmas" several times this year already, certainly more than "Happy Holidays".   This "nobody can say Merry Christmas any more" is as big a myth this year as it was last year, and the year before and the uear before that.

Found a gift on my door this morning, a Christmas Card with "Merry Christmas" in big letters, from my hijab-wearing neighbor.   

[Argus]

13 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Certainly not you at all.  I'm talking about anyone who bangs on about any culture or traditions disappearing.  They all do it eventually.

This from a guy who's native land REEKs of tradition, and which does everything but enshrine traditions in law. Wait, it does that too.

[turningrite]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

Found a gift on my door this morning, a Christmas Card with "Merry Christmas" in big letters, from my hijab-wearing neighbor.   

Only a day late, but pretty close. I wonder if she's ever heard about the incident cited in Canuck100's post a couple hours ago?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

Cultures don't all disappear. They may change over time. But not all change is good. And one can lament the loss of good traditions to be replaced by bad ones.

 

1 minute ago, Argus said:

This from a guy who's native land REEKs of tradition, and which does everything but enshrine traditions in law. Wait, it does that too.

I know, but it's all going to go away eventually.  Some stuff lasts longer than other stuff but nothing is safe from the inexorable rot of time.

[Argus]

5 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

 

I know, but it's all going to go away eventually.  Some stuff lasts longer than other stuff but nothing is safe from the inexorable rot of time.

Cultures change over time. But time is the key to avoiding societal upheaval over it. Shifting everything under the feet of those already here in favour of newcomers is a recipe for trouble.

[Guest]

Just now, Argus said:

Cultures change over time. But time is the key to avoiding societal upheaval over it. Shifting everything under the feet of those already here in favour of newcomers is a recipe for trouble.

No argument from me.  I think societal upheaval is inevitable though. 

 

[dialamah]

7 minutes ago, turningrite said:

1.  Only a day late, but pretty close.

2.  I wonder if she's ever heard about the incident cited in Canuck100's post a couple hours ago?

1.  Maybe it was there yesterday, we didn't go out. 

2.  In Egypt, there is official messaging to people, reminding them that showing respect for Christmas is in line with Islamic teaching. 

Islam has acknowledged the principle of peaceful coexistence with all people, regardless of their faith. Moreover, Islam has instructed [Muslims] to befriend them, maintain contact with them, to give them presents, to accept presents from them, and to treat them with decency, like they were treated by our Prophet Mohammed

Perhaps she heard both stories and chose the the one she believes more closely reflects her faith.

[taxme]

2 hours ago, betsy said:

Something I notice in my little city - people greet using "Merry X'mas" now.   In fact, I notice store clerks perk up when I greet them Merry Christmas - and with big smiles (like they didn't expect that greeting), they enthusiastically answered right back the same!

Never heard "Happy Holidays" at all!  I suppose, that movement to eliminate "Merry Christmas" was a short-lived thingy.....at least, in this part of the world.  This place is quite diversified too. 

We can thank Donald Trump for that. Trump pretty much stated that Merry Christmas is back and now pretty much everyone is saying Merry Christmas again. Even our prime mistake on Christmas Day said Merry Christmas in his little speech on Christmas Day. I was shocked. Has this liberal lost his mind? It certainly looks like it to me. 

[cannuck]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

2.  In Egypt, there is official messaging to people, reminding them that showing respect for Christmas is in line with Islamic teaching. 

This has been my experience with Islam.  However, it is not fair or accurate to say that this represents ALL of Islam, only the moderate mainstream.  It is the fundamentalist fruitcakes that take what serves their agenda from the Quran (similar is obviously done from the Bible and I assume the Tora) and preach it as the one and only "truth".

[Argus]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

2.  In Egypt, there is official messaging to people, reminding them that showing respect for Christmas is in line with Islamic teaching.

It's too bad that's not true.

[Argus]

17 minutes ago, cannuck said:

This has been my experience with Islam.  However, it is not fair or accurate to say that this represents ALL of Islam, only the moderate mainstream. 

Evidence the mainstream is moderate?

[cannuck]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

Evidence the mainstream is moderate?

decades of working in 

[Argus]

Just now, cannuck said:

decades of working in 

in what? In the Muslim world? In Indonesia, Pakistan, Egypt, Malaysia?

[cannuck]

Morocco, KSA, Dubai, Qatar and others.  I also have many close friends from and in Iran and Lebanon

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by cannuck

[Argus]

Just now, cannuck said:

Morocco, KSA, Dubai, Qatar and others

What about these states and Islam as it is practiced there do you regard as moderate?

Perhaps we need to reflect on what definition of that term you're using. For example, are non-Muslims given the same rights as Muslims in these states? Are there strict and brutal punishments for things like adultery, homosexuality, apostasy and blaspheme there? I believe SA and Qatar still have the death penalty for apostasy. Dubai is part of the UAE which also has the death penalty for apostasy. Do you consider that "moderate"?

[dialamah]

38 minutes ago, cannuck said:

This has been my experience with Islam.  However, it is not fair or accurate to say that this represents ALL of Islam, only the moderate mainstream.  It is the fundamentalist fruitcakes that take what serves their agenda from the Quran (similar is obviously done from the Bible and I assume the Tora) and preach it as the one and only "truth".

That's true.  Fundamentalists tend to be extremists and fruitcake-like.

[cannuck]

7 minutes ago, Argus said:

What about these states and Islam as it is practiced there do you regard as moderate?

Perhaps we need to reflect on what definition of that term you're using. For example, are non-Muslims given the same rights as Muslims in these states? Are there strict and brutal punishments for things like adultery, homosexuality, apostasy and blaspheme there? I believe SA and Qatar still have the death penalty for apostasy. Dubai is part of the UAE which also has the death penalty for apostasy. Do you consider that "moderate"?

Well, since I am known to many as an apostate, and my handler in many of those states was as well, I guess it much be some kind of Christmas miracle that we survived all those years.   Look, WE have some frigging bizzarre and brutal laws (such as allowing the murder of children for the convenience of the Mother or parents), so I am not going to sit in judgement of others.  Yes, shit is on the books, but the real test is how do people live their lives and deal with others.  In much of MENA, if you don't get onto your high horse and get into someone's face, you will be just fine.  It is all about respect, and that is mutual.  Morocco is a different story - it was in my time there more liberal than most of Islam - and in my understanding much closer to the kind of extreme tolerance that is SUPPOSED to be part of Islam.

[Argus]

1 minute ago, cannuck said:

Well, since I am known to many as an apostate, and my handler in many of those states was as well, I guess it much be some kind of Christmas miracle that we survived all those years.   Look, WE have some frigging bizzarre and brutal laws (such as allowing the murder of children for the convenience of the Mother or parents), so I am not going to sit in judgement of others.  Yes, shit is on the books, but the real test is how do people live their lives and deal with others.  In much of MENA, if you don't get onto your high horse and get into someone's face, you will be just fine.  It is all about respect, and that is mutual.  Morocco is a different story - it was in my time there more liberal than most of Islam - and in my understanding much closer to the kind of extreme tolerance that is SUPPOSED to be part of Islam.

I think those Scandinavian girls who had their heads removed last week might disagree.

I realize Morocco and Dubai aren't Afghanistan or Pakistan, but in the PEW polls taken across the Muslim world of Muslim attitudes and beliefs, the overwhelming majority of people in the Muslim world seem quite accepting of the most horrific punishments for 'moral' crimes.

[cannuck]

7 minutes ago, Argus said:

I think those Scandinavian girls who had their heads removed last week might disagree.

I realize Morocco and Dubai aren't Afghanistan or Pakistan, but in the PEW polls taken across the Muslim world of Muslim attitudes and beliefs, the overwhelming majority of people in the Muslim world seem quite accepting of the most horrific punishments for 'moral' crimes.

Of course they will answer any question only with one confirming their belief in their faith - even if they really don't agree.  There is fear of the fundamentalists everywhere.

That being said: do I think Muslim immigrants are a good fit for  Canada?   Hell NO!    Some, yes, but most not.  No more than some loud mouthed Yank would be welcome in Riyadh should a truly devote follower of Islam be welcomed here - as a resident.  Since we no longer bother to screen immigrants, the answer is to simply not bother taking ANY from trouble states with cultures incompatible with our genuine Judeo-Christian one.

Edited December 27, 2018 by cannuck

[Argus]

58 minutes ago, cannuck said:

Of course they will answer any question only with one confirming their belief in their faith - even if they really don't agree.  There is fear of the fundamentalists everywhere.

That being said: do I think Muslim immigrants are a good fit for  Canada?   Hell NO!    Some, yes, but most not.  No more than some loud mouthed Yank would be welcome in Riyadh should a truly devote follower of Islam be welcomed here - as a resident.  Since we no longer bother to screen immigrants, the answer is to simply not bother taking ANY from trouble states with cultures incompatible with our genuine Judeo-Christian one.

We are in agreement, then. The problem is that genuine judgement of this nature is largely forbidden to anyone under the eye of the media. Any politician who said what you wrote above would be pilloried as a racist, xenophobe, Islamophobia, bigot, etc. etc. They would be bounced out of their party and hounded out of parliament. Despite being a fairly obvious truth, it's one of those things we're not allowed to say.

Here's another. According to Immigration Canada's own study, the immigrants who are the biggest economic success in Canada are from Europe and the US. Those who are the least economically successful are from Asia, North Africa and the ME.  Statistics Canada says the income of European immigrants  The median wages for immigrants from the US and Europe who have been here ten or more years is $50,000, compared to $30,000 for those from east Asia. There is thus every economic rational  to favour immigrants from these areas. That goes on top of the cultural similarity. But once again, no one can even suggest doing that.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Argus

[Rue]

2 hours ago, cannuck said:

Morocco, KSA, Dubai, Qatar and others.  I also have many close friends from and in Iran and Lebanon

 

Yah but would  you know if some of your best friends were terrorists? Food for thought and why people like me never can sleep with their back turned from a window or door.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Rue

[Rue]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

That's true.  Fundamentalists tend to be extremists and fruitcake-like.

Try the word terrorist just once. Fundamentalists are not an issue until they become them. 

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by Rue