Should the government ignore the middle class?

[Machjo]

In Canada, the middle class is the group politicians discuss the most. Ironically though, in Hong Kong the middle class is the group the government ignore the most. It pays no income taxes but gets almost no services. The real focus there is the rich and the poor. The rich pay taxes, the poor receive essential government services, and the middle class? The government just leaves it alone. Might it in fact be time for Canada to literally ignore its middle class?

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Machjo said:

In Canada, the middle class is the group politicians discuss the most. Ironically though, in Hong Kong the middle class is the group the government ignore the most. It pays no income taxes but gets almost no services. The real focus there is the rich and the poor. The rich pay taxes, the poor receive essential government services, and the middle class? The government just leaves it alone. Might it in fact be time for Canada to literally ignore its middle class?

Do we get to ignore the government?

Literally.

[Machjo]

5 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Do we get to ignore the government?

Literally.

It would certainly reduce bureaucracy. The CRA would just need to focus on the rich, different social programs would focus on the poor, and the middle class would just take care of itself.

[eyeball]

I'm pretty sure we'll want to keep a laser sharp focus on the CRA, especially where it has anything to do with the rich.

I know, we'll hire poor people to keep an eye on their interests.

[Centerpiece]

Your topic fails to define the middle class and in doing so, pretty well waters down or invalidates your theory. The middle class is not defined by government - it's defined by each individual. If you don't think you are rich - and you don't think you are poor (genuinely poor), then you usually think of yourself as middle class. As for taxes - a rough allocation sees Canada's top 20% earners paying about 60% of all taxes collected while the bottom 20% pays less than 1%. That leaves almost 40% of taxes paid by (arguably) the middle class. Why do governments of both stripes use the term "middle class" so freely? Because while their rhetoric makes people think "That's me!" - their policies end up favouring only a small subset. But ignore the middle class? At your great peril!

Edited November 28, 2018 by Centerpiece

[turningrite]

17 hours ago, Machjo said:

In Canada, the middle class is the group politicians discuss the most. Ironically though, in Hong Kong the middle class is the group the government ignore the most. It pays no income taxes but gets almost no services. The real focus there is the rich and the poor. The rich pay taxes, the poor receive essential government services, and the middle class? The government just leaves it alone. Might it in fact be time for Canada to literally ignore its middle class?

I like the not paying taxes part. But your suggestion makes me laugh. If ordinary working Canadians stopped paying taxes the entire subsidy system would grind to a halt. Working Canadians start paying income taxes at surprising low income levels and consumption taxes of varying kinds further eat into ordinary middle-class incomes. Hong Kong actually subsidizes much of its working and lower middle classes where housing is concerned. Although a very wealthy place with little unemployment, one-third of its population lives in social housing and an additional 15 percent of the population benefits from other forms of direct and indirect housing assistance. Apparently, Hong Kong recognizes that a globalized free market system that's  tolerant of property speculation simply can't adequately house ordinary working people in large urban regions, including many who might otherwise be considered "middle class" - whatever that means in Hong Kong.

I think the best solution might be to cease all means-tested subsidy programs and move to an eligibility system based on residency and contribution requirements. (Long-term residents and taxpayers would be accorded deemed contribution credits.) It would be fascinating to see how outcomes would change were people actually required to contribute in order to qualify for benefits.

Edited November 28, 2018 by turningrite

[Shady]

17 hours ago, Machjo said:

In Canada, the middle class is the group politicians discuss the most. Ironically though, in Hong Kong the middle class is the group the government ignore the most. It pays no income taxes but gets almost no services. The real focus there is the rich and the poor. The rich pay taxes, the poor receive essential government services, and the middle class? The government just leaves it alone. Might it in fact be time for Canada to literally ignore its middle class?

The middle class is a huge tax base for revenue for the government.  How would they "ignore" them?

[Queenmandy85]

6 minutes ago, Truth Detector said:

The middle class is a huge tax base for revenue for the government.  How would they "ignore" them?

The middle class is a huge voter base for the government. Why would they ignore them? That is not as much an issue for the government of Hong Kong.

[Shady]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The middle class is a huge voter base for the government. Why would they ignore them? That is not as much an issue for the government of Hong Kong.

So you think a large group of people that pay taxes shouldn't have a government representing their interests?  Taxation without representation is tyranny.

[GostHacked]

20 hours ago, Machjo said:

The rich pay taxes...... 

Oh?

[Shady]

54 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Oh?

Yep.  In the United States, the top 5% income earners pay something like 50% of the tax burden.

[Queenmandy85]

1 hour ago, Truth Detector said:

So you think a large group of people that pay taxes shouldn't have a government representing their interests?  Taxation without representation is tyranny.

Not sure what you mean here. The government needs to pay close attention to the largest number of voters possible. That, presumablely, is the middle class. That is how governments get re-elected. (ie. democracy)

[Machjo]

4 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Not sure what you mean here. The government needs to pay close attention to the largest number of voters possible. That, presumablely, is the middle class. That is how governments get re-elected. (ie. democracy)

The problem I see with middle-class policy is that the government taxes us just to give the money back to us. So what's the point?

If the government ignored the middle class, then it would just ignore the middle class and so greatly reduce its overall bureaucracy.

[Shady]

11 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Not sure what you mean here. The government needs to pay close attention to the largest number of voters possible. That, presumablely, is the middle class. That is how governments get re-elected. (ie. democracy)

Yep, that's why they do.  They don't ignore them.  Especially since they ask them to pay a lot in taxes.

[Queenmandy85]

If you think we pay a lot in taxes, you should spend a couple of years in Norway. It costs money to run a modern government If not through taxes, where do you suggest they get the revenue to pay for healthcare, education,  defence, etc. Should the middle class citizen buy their own tank, treat their own cancer?

[Hates politicians]

3 hours ago, Truth Detector said:

So you think a large group of people that pay taxes shouldn't have a government representing their interests?  Taxation without representation is tyranny.

We have that now, politicians don't represent the people they represent their party.

[Argus]

On 11/28/2018 at 9:56 AM, turningrite said:

I like the not paying taxes part. But your suggestion makes me laugh. If ordinary working Canadians stopped paying taxes the entire subsidy system would grind to a halt. Working Canadians start paying income taxes at surprising low income levels and consumption taxes of varying kinds further eat into ordinary middle-class incomes.

In point of fact you can earn $30,000-$45,000 a year and pay no income taxes, depending on your deductions.

The lower 50% of income earners is responsible for less than 4% of income tax payments.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Argus

[Argus]

On 11/28/2018 at 2:36 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

If you think we pay a lot in taxes, you should spend a couple of years in Norway. It costs money to run a modern government If not through taxes, where do you suggest they get the revenue to pay for healthcare, education,  defence, etc. Should the middle class citizen buy their own tank, treat their own cancer?

Norway gives a lot more back for those taxes than our government does.

[turningrite]

On 11/28/2018 at 2:21 PM, Machjo said:

The problem I see with middle-class policy is that the government taxes us just to give the money back to us. So what's the point?

If the government ignored the middle class, then it would just ignore the middle class and so greatly reduce its overall bureaucracy.

Actually, the government taxes working Canadians to give the money back to those just below them on the economic ladder who in many cases don't work. That's how means-tested subsidies function. Governments in this country tax employment earnings starting at very low income levels and additionally impose a significant burden on ordinary folks in the form of consumption taxation. Corporations and the rich, and particularly investors, are afforded far greater ability to defer and avoid taxation. A former colleague who went on to work in the field of government housing policy once explained to me the inequity inherent in public subsidies, which most heavily disadvantage those who fall just short of subsidy eligibility criteria. He noted that these poor folks pay the heaviest price and most onerous level of taxation for sustaining means-tested subsidies for which they don't and in many cases won't ever qualify. The middle class, such as it is (as it's eroding every year), thinks it's paying taxes under a "social contract" model whereby its contributions will at least in part be rewarded in the form of stable pensions and adequate health care. The latter is quickly disappearing in the much of the country and the former may well be at risk as the subsidy system becomes increasingly expensive to sustain.

Edited December 7, 2018 by turningrite

[GostHacked]

On 11/28/2018 at 1:54 PM, Truth Detector said:

Yep.  In the United States, the top 5% income earners pay something like 50% of the tax burden.

What about Canada?  Also ... cites?