The Trump Tax Plan for Individuals

[TTM]

15 minutes ago, Bonam said:

1. All money ultimately ends up in the hands of individuals.

2. Taxing companies is inefficient because their finances are complex  

3. All dividend and capital gain income be taxed at the same rates as wages. 

4. Eliminate payroll taxes

1. All money ultimately flows through businesses ... maybe we should eliminate all income taxes in favour of corporate taxes 

2. It is difficult because they can afford to buy tax cuts, loopholes, tax holidays, and lax enforcement

3. Yes.

4. Maybe. Simplify and eliminate the caps at least.

[TTM]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

1. Wealth has already been taxed at several levels and should not be subjected to even more confiscation by government upon death.  

2. It is also politically impossible to means test social insurance programs and Medicare benefits.    The poor are means tested to qualify for and receive Medicaid, food, and housing benefits.

 

1. It doesn't need to go to the gov't but I dont really see a better option, and you cant take it with you. Maybe you should be burned on a pyre of all your earthly belongings.  Inheritance is fundimentally anti-capitalist ... it is the ultimate in unearned money

2. Yes and?

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, TTM said:

1. It doesn't need to go to the gov't but I dont really see a better option, and you cant take it with you. Maybe you should be burned on a pyre of all your earthly belongings.  Inheritance is fundimentally anti-capitalist ... it is the ultimate in unearned money

2. Yes and?

 

1.  Yes you can take it with you....in the form of trusts and foundations...crafty ways to beat the tax man.

2.  The point is that we do methodically investigate, qualify, and limit wealth redistribution to the poor (welfare).   It is not earned income and is subject to the whim of federal, state and county governments.   They will never get rich unless they play (and win) the lottery.

[TTM]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

1.  Yes you can take it with you....in the form of trusts and foundations...crafty ways to beat the tax man.

2.  The point is that we do methodically investigate, qualify, and limit wealth redistribution to the poor (welfare).   It is not earned income and is subject to the whim of federal, state and county governments.   They will never get rich unless they play (and win) the lottery.

1. Sure, you can (try to) avoid confiscation. But you can't take it with you, you're dead. 

2. I think you misunderstood.  My point was that (on aggregate), while income is being transferred from the wealthy to the poor through these programs, at the end of the year the poor (on aggregate) are not further ahead than they were the year before; their percentage of the nation's wealth has not increased ... there is a transfer of income but not wealth.  Were these programs to stop, the poor would get (relatively, much) poorer, and the wealthy (relatively, slightly) wealthier ... there would be a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, TTM said:

1. Sure, you can (try to) avoid confiscation. But you can't take it with you, you're dead. 

2. I think you misunderstood.  My point was that (on aggregate), while income is being transferred from the wealthy to the poor through these programs, at the end of the year the poor (on aggregate) are not further ahead than they were the year before; their percentage of the nation's wealth has not increased ... there is a transfer of income but not wealth.  Were these programs to stop, the poor would get (relatively, much) poorer, and the wealthy (relatively, slightly) wealthier ... there would be a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.

 

1.  Nope...you're not dead...you name and legacy lives on...with bold statements about philanthropy on PBS.    You might even get a statue erected in your name.

2.  Moreover, the income that is redistributed is just churned right back into the accounts of the rich.   The poor have no wealth by definition.

[TTM]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

1.  Nope...you're not dead...you name and legacy lives on...with bold statements about philanthropy on PBS.    You might even get a statue erected in your name.

2.  Moreover, the income that is redistributed is just churned right back into the accounts of the rich.  

3. The poor have no wealth by definition.

1. You are still dead, and in no condition to care one way or the other

2. Essentially.  So, why the constant complaining about the redistribution?

3. Everything is relative

[bush_cheney2004]

1. Death is also relative.

2. The complaining is about the level of redistribution and fraud/waste/abuse.

3. See #1.

[TTM]

1. Death (and taxes) are absolute 

2. I've just shown that the level of redistribution is adequate, and no more, unless you think the poor as a whole have too much money.  Fraud/waste/abuse is minimal, and mostly a myth

3. #1 is the exception that proves the rule 

[taxme]

On 11/23/2018 at 11:36 AM, Zeitgeist said:

Under the Trump tax plan, people earning between $9,500.00 and $38,700.00 received a lowering in their tax rate of 3%.  People earning over $500,000.00 received a lowering in their tax rate of 2.6%.  In some businesses today, the highest paid earners, usually one person, can make over a billion dollars while the lowest paid full-time workers can earn well under $30000.00 a year.  Under such circumstances,  in an organization where one person is earning $2 billion and another is earning $20,000.00, one person is earning 10000 times what the lowest paid worker earns.  The billionaire saves $5.2 million with Trump's tax cut.  The worker with the $20000.00 salary will save $300.00 a year.  Consider also that this tax plan reduces the amount of tax revenue that the government receives to service its debt and pay for government services by $1.5 trillion.  The US has a national debt of over $21 trillion.  Is this good tax policy?  Only 2% of the US population earns over $500,000.00 a year.  Around one percent of the population earns over one million dollars a year.  Who do these tax cuts serve the most? 

Hey, if a taxpayer has more money in their pockets thanks to lower taxes than that person will be putting that money saved thru taxes back into the economy. Yes/no? The government will eventually get most of it's money back. It's a win-win deal for both. If say the GST were abolished tomorrow and that money went back to the taxpayer they would no doubt spend most if not all of that GST money on products and services which in the end the government will get most of the money back thru taxes. It only makes common sense to me which seems to be lacking with our spend crazy politicians. Of course we do need to pay taxes for some government services which are needed to run a country but the taxes that the Canadian taxpayer's are being forced to pay today is downright criminal to say the least. There is so much unneeded government/bureaucracy in Canada that could be eliminated if we had the proper leaders to do the right thing and stop blowing our tax dollars on useless programs and agendas that are no good to Canada or Canadians at all. Canadians are being robbed every day of their hard earned dollars but no one here or out there seems to care about that. Why? It still amazes me. 

[taxme]

On 11/23/2018 at 12:59 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Those who earn the most and pay the most in taxes.    "45% of Americans pay no net income taxes".

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/09/775-million-households-are-not-paying-federal-income-taxes.html

What are they earning? $5000 a year? In Canada anyone who is working or is retired and earns under $11,000 a year pays no personal income tax at all. What that percentage is I have no idea at all. 

[TTM]

4 hours ago, taxme said:

If say the GST were abolished tomorrow and that money went back to the taxpayer they would no doubt spend most if not all of that GST money on products and services which in the end the government will get most of the money back thru taxes. 

It may make theoretical sense to you, but it is an empirical fact not what happens.  You can look at before and after government revenues for the federal government, the provinces,  or any other country or state that implements, changes, or abolishes sales taxes.

[taxme]

On 11/27/2018 at 7:11 PM, TTM said:

It may make theoretical sense to you, but it is an empirical fact not what happens.  You can look at before and after government revenues for the federal government, the provinces,  or any other country or state that implements, changes, or abolishes sales taxes.

Canada is spending way too much of our tax dollars on totally useless UN Agenda 21 socialist programs and agendas that are being forced on the majority of Canadians who never asked for them. Our governments spend way more than what they take in.This is the problem for all Canadians. The GST was implemented so our politicians could spend more money, again, no doubt on useless socialist programs and agendas. There is no common sense or logic ever used when it comes to our spend crazy Canadian politicians. It's not all that hard to fix. It just takes the will power of we the people to say enough already. Wishful thinking of course because from what I have been noticing for all my years is that the majority of Canadians really do not care one way or the other as to what their politicians are doing to them and their tax dollars. Life should be easy but it is the politicians who make the effort every day to make our lives miserable and broke. If we the people really did control and had more of a say as to what will be done with our tax dollars this country and Canadians should be in better shape than what we are today. Just my opinion of course. 

[TTM]

4 hours ago, taxme said:

1. Canada is spending way too much of our tax dollars on totally useless UN Agenda 21 socialist programs

2. Our governments spend way more than what they take in.This is the problem for all Canadians.

3. The GST was implemented so our politicians could spend more money

4. There is no common sense or logic ever used when it comes to our spend crazy Canadian politicians. 

5. Life should be easy but it is the politicians who make the effort every day to make our lives miserable and broke.

6. If we the people really did control and had more of a say as to what will be done with our tax dollars this country and Canadians should be in better shape than what we are today. Just my opinion of course. 

1. Conspiracy nonsense about a completely voluntary planning organisation providing information on sustainable development that's been around for 20 years. Walkable communities and public transportation: the horror ... the horror!

2. They do. I wish we could go back to the competence of the Chretien Liberals on this file. It's nowhere near the levels where it is a problem to all Canadians though

3. The GST was implemented by the Mulroney PCs to help get the deficits under control.  Along with some austerity and some dubious raiding of UI (and probably some other stuff I don't remember) under the Chretien Liberals it largely did.  Harper dropped it a couple of points, and this was a major contributor to the deficits racked up over his terms. Trudeau has now jumped the shark on the deficit file, but about the level of competence I expect from Ontario Liberals (as opposed to the old Chretien Liberals)

4. Most programs make some sense. Whether they are worth the cost is often as much a moral disagreement as a political one.

5. LOL! I'm sure it's not your intention, but I read that as "The world owes me something and it's politicians fault I'm not sucessful"  While I think you are trying to make some sort of point about politicians getting out of the way of citizens, the exact same wording could be used to complain about politicians taking away / not giving enough in handouts.

6. They have control through their vote.  Any more control would only be negative.  I expect by "people should have more control" you really mean "people who agree with me should have more control"

Edited December 1, 2018 by TTM

[taxme]

18 hours ago, TTM said:

1. Conspiracy nonsense about a completely voluntary planning organisation providing information on sustainable development that's been around for 20 years. Walkable communities and public transportation: the horror ... the horror!

2. They do. I wish we could go back to the competence of the Chretien Liberals on this file. It's nowhere near the levels where it is a problem to all Canadians though

3. The GST was implemented by the Mulroney PCs to help get the deficits under control.  Along with some austerity and some dubious raiding of UI (and probably some other stuff I don't remember) under the Chretien Liberals it largely did.  Harper dropped it a couple of points, and this was a major contributor to the deficits racked up over his terms. Trudeau has now jumped the shark on the deficit file, but about the level of competence I expect from Ontario Liberals (as opposed to the old Chretien Liberals)

4. Most programs make some sense. Whether they are worth the cost is often as much a moral disagreement as a political one.

5. LOL! I'm sure it's not your intention, but I read that as "The world owes me something and it's politicians fault I'm not sucessful"  While I think you are trying to make some sort of point about politicians getting out of the way of citizens, the exact same wording could be used to complain about politicians taking away / not giving enough in handouts.

6. They have control through their vote.  Any more control would only be negative.  I expect by "people should have more control" you really mean "people who agree with me should have more control"

1. The UN is one big conspiracy. The UN has been around for several decades now and what has the UN done that has solved and made the world a better place to live in? Poverty and famine and wars are still going on. I have no idea as to what you are talking about when it comes to walkable communities and public transportation? Please explain. 

2. There are no competent politicians in Canada. Just spend crazy ones who have shown us all for decades now that they do not know how to handle our Canadian tax dollars in a proper manner. Liberalism is why Canada and Canadians are in deep debt. Chretien was not a millionaire when he entered politics. When he left he was a millionaire. Politicians stealing we the peoples money out of our Canada Pension Plan to go give too some other country is bloody theft. The money in the CPP belongs to we the people and not the government to go rob and blow. It's our money.

3. The GST was created to pay down the debt. It did not come anywhere close to paying down the debt. It was just another tax grab. If you think that the implementation of the GST was for a noble reason well then you have been taken for a fool big time. I believe that there are give or take 500,000 people working in the federal government and probably 80% of them are not needed. There is no way anyone with an ounce of brains can think that all is well in Canada. 

4. This country does not run on common sense or logic anymore. It runs mostly on emotional liberal bull chit and foolish silly liberal talk. Between old man and kid Trudeau they have done so much damage to Canada that one has to wonder if that damage can ever be repaired. Even the conservatives are of no help. The socialist/communist NDP are a write off. They all say they care but they do not. If they really did Canada and Canadians would be in great shape today. 

5. LOL yourself. Life should not be so complicated. Canada should not be broke. Life should be easy peasy. There is no doubt that thanks to our politicians I am pretty sure that all Canadians would be successful if they are willing to work. Politicians always take more than they can or want to give back. Stealing our tax dollars to give away to the rest of the world is grand theft. Sad part is that the majority of sleepy head Canadians is that they do not seem to want to complain at all about how their tax dollars are being blown every year. Blowing tens of thousands of our tax dollars in Africa on how the sex life of some Africans works is beyond bloody ridiculous. And your tax dollars are paying for that nonsense. You need to grasp a hold of reality and wake up. Your politicians have no love for you or your money. Hello? 

6. Voting has become a waste of time. Canadians have no right to a vote on anything period. Politicians say and we the people are supposed to do. On the contrary, Canadians need more say and not more control. People do not have to listen to me or do as I say. All I am doing here is trying to inform and educate Canadians into what the hell is going on in this country which people like you seem to feel to only want to attack and mock and that anything I say here is all a conspiracy to try and make people do as I say. You do not have to listen too me but try listening to others who are trying to tell you something in the alternative media so as to help you get your head out of the sand. RightEdition is one of those alternative media websites. I have learned a lot from going to and reading and listening to the people on that website. Why should I continue to remain stupid like so many other Canadians appear to prefer to want to do?  Just saying. 

[TTM]

2 hours ago, taxme said:

1a. The UN has been around for several decades now and ... poverty and famine and wars are still going on.

1b. I have no idea as to what you are talking ... Please explain. 

2. There are no competent politicians in Canada. 

3. The GST was created to pay down the debt. It did not come anywhere close to paying down the debt. 

4. If [politicians] really did [care] Canada and Canadians would be in great shape today. 

5. Life should not be so complicated ... Life should be easy peasy. 

6a. Voting has become a waste of time. 

6b. People do not have to listen to me or do as I say.

1a. The UN did not solve all wars, famine and poverty! We should obviously go back to the good old pre-UN days when these things were much rarer and less severe

1b. So you dont know anything about UN Agenda 21 that you were complaining about

2. Chretien brought the deficit and began to bring the debt under control.  In that realm he was competent. Because politicians do some of the things they do poorly or (more likely) do things that you disagree with does not make them universally incompetent 

3. The deficit was eliminated and the debt was slowly reduced for more than a decade and the GST was a major factor.  The reduction in the GST was a significant factor (of many) in why this stopped.

4. Canada with all its issues is one of the greatest places in the world to live.  

5. I understand. Life is hard ... lots of people aren't successful.

6a. All those places where they dont vote are so much better. 

6b. Finally, something I can whole heartedly agree with!

Edited December 1, 2018 by TTM

[taxme]

On 12/1/2018 at 3:07 PM, TTM said:

1a. The UN did not solve all wars, famine and poverty! We should obviously go back to the good old pre-UN days when these things were much rarer and less severe

1b. So you dont know anything about UN Agenda 21 that you were complaining about

2. Chretien brought the deficit and began to bring the debt under control.  In that realm he was competent. Because politicians do some of the things they do poorly or (more likely) do things that you disagree with does not make them universally incompetent 

3. The deficit was eliminated and the debt was slowly reduced for more than a decade and the GST was a major factor.  The reduction in the GST was a significant factor (of many) in why this stopped.

4. Canada with all its issues is one of the greatest places in the world to live.  

5. I understand. Life is hard ... lots of people aren't successful.

6a. All those places where they dont vote are so much better. 

6b. Finally, something I can whole heartedly agree with!

1a. I agree. The UN did not stop all wars, famine and poverty. Maybe the globalists are laying low now which may be the reason why there are not that many big wars going on these days but famine and poverty appears to be on the rise. The UN is just a money blood sucking outfit and nothing more. The UN building needs to be turned into housing. 

1b. The UN agenda is on the internet for all to see and learn about. 

2. Anyone with an ounce of brains can see that just about all politicians are incompetent. They say that Harper was doing the same thing. But did Harper or Chretien really help bring down any debt or deficit? No one really knows for sure. The books can easily be cooked. Never believe anything a politician tells you. They mostly lie.

3. The GST  was never meant to pay down the debt or deficit. It was implemented to steal more money from we the taxpaying people. The GST has been around for several decades now and debt should have been paid off by now. The only reason that I can see for that is because our spend crazy politicians keep borrowing more money and keep putting Canada and Canadians into deeper debt. 

4.Maybe yes, maybe no. So, maybe you can tell me as to why you I believe that Canada is one of the greatest places in the world to live? I have asked many members here this question but none seem to be able to answer that question. Can you? Just curious.

5. Life is being made hard and miserable for we the people. Indeed lots of people are successful but it sure cost them a lot of their time and effort and money to become successful. With so many taxes and rules and regulations and bureaucracy here in Canada I find it very hard to believe that anyone has all that much of a chance of becoming all that successful. It would appear that the government hates success. They prefer debt and deficits. 

6a. It is surprising to see anyone in Canada being better off these days unless you are in the drug trade. Most people are just lucky to be getting by these days in Canada with all of the many taxes, fees and permits needed, the thousands of rules and regulations to have to abide by that appear to be stifling growth rather than creating growth. By voting all one is doing is just putting in the same or another gang of thieves, cheats and liars into power. We the people will never win because our system of government has made politicians the boss and we the people the slaves. 

6b. But you must admit that I do bring some good points to the table? 

[TTM]

6 hours ago, taxme said:

1. The UN agenda is on the internet for all to see and learn about. 

2. But did Harper or Chretien really help bring down any debt or deficit? 

3. The GST  was never meant to pay down the debt or deficit ... the GST has been around for several decades now and debt should have been paid off by now. 

4. So, maybe you can tell me as to why you I believe that Canada is one of the greatest places in the world to live?

5. I find it very hard to believe that anyone has all that much of a chance of becoming all that successful.

6a. Most people are just lucky to be getting by these days in Canada with all of the many taxes, fees and permits needed, the thousands of rules and regulations to have to abide by that appear to be stifling growth rather than creating growth.

6b. By voting all one is doing is just putting in the same or another gang of thieves, cheats and liars into power. We the people will never win because our system of government has made politicians the boss and we the people the slaves. 

1. It sure is. Unfortunately people seem to prefer conspiracy sites to the actual documents posted freely on their website

2. Yes

3. False dichotomy.  We had a GST reduction, which reduced its effectiveness, then a recession, then a change in priorities.

4. We live in an relatively safe, open, free, tolerant, country with "peace, order, and good government" opportunity for the "pursuit of happiness", and a safety net if we fail or become sick.  The vast majority of the world's population does not.

https://assets.weforum.org/editor/Jjm4BbK8hjTBFPDOInCJWeIZv-6a_9M_7kihVwGY9Gc.png

5. Per #4, your chances here are as good anywhere, and much better than most of the rest of the world

6a. Per #4, things could be much worse. We could definitely be doing better (or at least different) with poverty, taxes, and regulation, but you would need to be specific. I'm sure my idea of better is not the same as yours.

6b. There are many changes that could be made to improve our democracy.  But if you dont believe in it, feel free to suggest a better form of government.

Edited December 3, 2018 by TTM

[taxme]

9 hours ago, TTM said:

1. It sure is. Unfortunately people seem to prefer conspiracy sites to the actual documents posted freely on their website

2. Yes

3. False dichotomy.  We had a GST reduction, which reduced its effectiveness, then a recession, then a change in priorities.

4. We live in an relatively safe, open, free, tolerant, country with "peace, order, and good government" opportunity for the "pursuit of happiness", and a safety net if we fail or become sick.  The vast majority of the world's population does not.

https://assets.weforum.org/editor/Jjm4BbK8hjTBFPDOInCJWeIZv-6a_9M_7kihVwGY9Gc.png

5. Per #4, your chances here are as good anywhere, and much better than most of the rest of the world

6a. Per #4, things could be much worse. We could definitely be doing better (or at least different) with poverty, taxes, and regulation, but you would need to be specific. I'm sure my idea of better is not the same as yours.

6b. There are many changes that could be made to improve our democracy.  But if you dont believe in it, feel free to suggest a better form of government.

1. The Charter of Rights says that I have a right to freedom of expression with no if's, and's or but's written in there. All is a go. But in reality I do not. The COR is just made up of words that can be interpreted and taken out of context. And of course today with most of our judges being activist liberal leftist ones only people of the liberal/socialist ideology will have their way while conservatives like myself will be attacked and condemned by those same intolerant bigoted activist judges. There is a conspiracy going on in Canada, all you Joe and Mary six packs out there, but the problem with them is that they have been to dumb downed to see it. There is a lot more hidden conspiracy in those Agenda 21 words. You just can't see them. 

2. Get real. If so, why has the Canadian debt ballooned to the point where it is today. Those two mentioned played to cook the books game. Get real. 

3. Again the GST was just another tax grab and nothing more and never meant to bring down the debt. Boy, you sure do believe that politicians have your best interest at heart, don't you? The GST may have come down by 2% but that money lost was found somewhere else and no doubt by raising taxes somewhere else. why you appear to want politicians look like a bunch of angels and darlings is beyond me.

4. I agree with much you say but that may just go by the wayside as we go deeper and deeper in debt every year and keep flooding this country with more unneeded immigrants where some of those new immigrants do not believe in an open, tolerant, free, and peace and good order government. Even our own politicians appear to have a problem with those mentioned above. They appear to not be so open, open to freedom, can be very intolerant and are running a bad order government in many many cases. 

5. For now things appear okay, for now. 

6a. In my opinion things will only get worse in Canada and not better. The liberals are trying to destroy this country thru bad silly idea trade deals, taxes, and more red tape, and joining the UN in everything they demand of us to join into which in many cases have not been all that great for Canada and Canadians. Dam right we could be doing better. 

6b. A real and true nationalist conservative government is what is needed in Canada today that will fight for freedom of speech, less taxes and less government and get out of the way for the creating of new businesses and jobs for Canadians. While Trump cuts taxes below Canadian levels, rejects carbon taxes, and stayed out of the UN Paris climate accord our dear leader wants carbon taxes, more environmental rules, wants to join the UN on everything they propose and try to chase industry's away rather then encourage industry to stay and build and to create more new jobs. The GM plant loss had lots to do with Trudeau's anti-business policies. 

FYI. Did you know that your dear leader prime mistake just gave away another $50 million of your tax dollars to South Africa to help them with some educational work project while at home thousands of GM workers lose their jobs is a crime. That money should have stayed in Canada to help those GM laid off workers rather than a bunch of foreign strangers. Our Canadian vets go broke or kill themselves, seniors who built up this country live in poverty, and the kid PM gives tax dollars away to terrorists. So stop trying to make things appear to look all rosie in Canada because they are not all that rosie in Canada. Think Canada first and not the rest of the world like what our dear leaders appear to be only interested in. Look good.   

[TTM]

1 hour ago, taxme said:

1. There is a lot more hidden conspiracy in those Agenda 21 words. You just can't see them. 

2. Get real. If so, why has the Canadian debt ballooned to the point where it is today. 

3. Again the GST was just another tax grab and nothing more and never meant to bring down the debt. 

4. [we] keep flooding this country with more unneeded immigrants where some of those new immigrants do not believe in an open, tolerant, free, and peace and good order government. 

6a. Dam right we could be doing better. 

6b. A real and true nationalist conservative government is what is needed in Canada today that will fight for freedom of speech, less taxes and less government and get out of the way for the creating of new businesses and jobs for Canadians. While Trump cuts taxes below Canadian levels, rejects carbon taxes, and stayed out of the UN Paris climate accord our dear leader wants carbon taxes, more environmental rules, wants to join the UN on everything they propose and try to chase industry's away rather then encourage industry to stay and build and to create more new jobs. The GM plant loss had lots to do with Trudeau's anti-business policies. 

7. FYI. Did you know that your dear leader prime mistake just gave away another $50 million of your tax dollars to South Africa to help them with some educational work project while at home thousands of GM workers lose their jobs is a crime. 

1. Is it possible I cant see it because it's not there.  I mean you have not given me anything to work on other than "it is a conspiracy because it is"

2. It went down and then it went back up.  Priorities changed.  I agree they shouldn't have.

3. The GST was brought in by Mulroney to raise general revenues to help regain control of runaway deficits. That is what happened.  That was also ~30 years ago -- lots of things change in 30 years

4. You would be surprised how many do believe in most or all of these things.  For the minority that dont, an even smaller percent of their children follow them ... one of the benefits of an universal public secular education system. For the rest, it is what it is ... many "natural citizens" do not believe in some or all of these things either.  Freedom of belief and speech and all

6a. Agreed, but also note that based on your posts, my idea of better is very different then yours

6b. I would support pretty much the opposite of everything you said here.  "Right Wing Nationalism" is typically not much more than fueled thinly veiled prejudice and xenophobia, and right wing governments have historically been no more or less competent then left.  They typically believe in freedom of speech only insofar as that speech is in agreement with them ... see Trump as an example: "The media is the enemy of the people". I prefer effective government to less. I'm for carbon taxes and the climate accord. Trumps tax cuts were terrible unless you are rich or a corporation, and is massively adding to the US deficits and debt. GM closed 2 plants in the states at the same time as the Oshawa one ... Trudeau's fault?

7. I have no particular affection for Trudeau and his government.  But I have no issue with a certain amount of foreign aid. It is a false dichotomy ... he can do both.

Edited December 4, 2018 by TTM

[taxme]

17 hours ago, TTM said:

1. Is it possible I cant see it because it's not there.  I mean you have not given me anything to work on other than "it is a conspiracy because it is"

2. It went down and then it went back up.  Priorities changed.  I agree they shouldn't have.

3. The GST was brought in by Mulroney to raise general revenues to help regain control of runaway deficits. That is what happened.  That was also ~30 years ago -- lots of things change in 30 years

4. You would be surprised how many do believe in most or all of these things.  For the minority that dont, an even smaller percent of their children follow them ... one of the benefits of an universal public secular education system. For the rest, it is what it is ... many "natural citizens" do not believe in some or all of these things either.  Freedom of belief and speech and all

6a. Agreed, but also note that based on your posts, my idea of better is very different then yours

6b. I would support pretty much the opposite of everything you said here.  "Right Wing Nationalism" is typically not much more than fueled thinly veiled prejudice and xenophobia, and right wing governments have historically been no more or less competent then left.  They typically believe in freedom of speech only insofar as that speech is in agreement with them ... see Trump as an example: "The media is the enemy of the people". I prefer effective government to less. I'm for carbon taxes and the climate accord. Trumps tax cuts were terrible unless you are rich or a corporation, and is massively adding to the US deficits and debt. GM closed 2 plants in the states at the same time as the Oshawa one ... Trudeau's fault?

7. I have no particular affection for Trudeau and his government.  But I have no issue with a certain amount of foreign aid. It is a false dichotomy ... he can do both.

1. Go on the internet and punch in Agenda 21 a UN conspiracy and read what is being said. If there is anything being done by the UN then there is a conspiracy involved in there somewhere.

2. The GST went down but the loss from the cut to the GST was taken from somewhere else. The government does not take and then give back. The GST could be eliminated today if our dear leaders would cut several useless programs and agendas like bilingualism, multiculturalism, foreign aid, massive 3rd world immigration and bringing in and allowing in legal and illegal so called refugees and stop wasting tax dollars on global climate change nonsense. Our Canadian dollars is not at 75 cents for nothing. 

3. If our dear leaders would learn how to spend taxpayer's tax dollars more wisely there would be no need to bring in things like the GST to stop runaway deficits. Indeed lots have changed and since then things have been getting worse. Our low Canadian peso tells me that. 

4. Maybe. But with multiculturalism(genocide)and diversity those new immigrants are told that there is no need for them to assimilate into Canadian culture anymore. The government encourages those new immigrants to keep their cultures as a part of the governments assistance in trying to destroy our western Canadian ways of doing things and culture. Canada is fast becoming a non-Western country. My opinion from my observations. 

6a. I can certainly see that alright. While you may believe all is hunky dory, I do not. I do not like what I see going on in Canada today. This is not the Canada that I grew up in anymore. It's all about the rest of the world now. Our dear leaders are not Canadian nationalists as they once were over a century ago. They sign onto globalist UN global policies without we the people's permission. Canada is not a free nation anymore but is now part of the global nation where our ways of doing things must go because they conflict with the globalists UN ideology. 

6b. I can see that from debating with you that you are pretty much opposite to anything I believe in and that is your right to do so. So, if one calls him/herself a Nationalist that someone must mean that they have to be racist,, prejudice and xenophobia and support the KKK. Your idea of  nationalism and my idea of nationalism are miles apart. Your nationalism consists of more government, more taxes and less freedom as far as I am concerned. You have offered nothing here in trying to solve Canada's debt and job loss problems. I try and you question and challenge them as if they are a part of some "Right Wing Nationalist' conspiracy. GM closed two plants because  they are trying to restructure the business to make it more profitable. Everything wrong today in Canada is the prime mistakes fault. While Trump tries to support business and the creation of more jobs, the kid PM thinks more about 3rd world immigration and sex gender and playing Mr. Dressup rather than trying to save jobs and create more jobs. You said that you prefer effective government maybe you can tell me where you see that happening in Canada today? I only see disaster. 

7. Like giving away billions of our tax dollars to foreign countries who do not deserve our tax dollars and done again without we the people's permission. That is like me going into your wallet and taken some money out of it so I can go have a good time at your expense with your money. South Africa receives foreign aid from Canada and yet there have been thousands of white farmers that have and are still being seriously injured or killed and that includes women and children today by black African Mandela communists who hate white people and appears to be sanctioned by the SA government and our liberal leftist media says nothing. That alone should stop all foreign aid to SA. Canada had no problem supporting anti-apartheid sanctions against SA decades ago. Trudeau should now apply sanctions against SA and not give them any more of our tax dollars. Ha-ha, good luck on that one happening. So sad. 

[TTM]

On 12/4/2018 at 2:18 PM, taxme said:

1. Go on the internet and punch in Agenda 21 a UN conspiracy and read what is being said. 

2a. The GST went down but the loss from the cut to the GST was taken from somewhere else.

2b. The GST could be eliminated today if our dear leaders would cut ... bilingualism, multiculturalism, foreign aid ....

2c. Our Canadian dollars is not at 75 cents for nothing. 

3. If our dear leaders would learn how to spend taxpayer's tax dollars more wisely there would be no need to bring in things like the GST to stop runaway deficits. 

4. But with multiculturalism (genocide) 

6a1. While you may believe all is hunky dory, I do not.

6a2. Our dear leaders are not Canadian nationalists as they once were over a century ago.

6a3. They sign onto globalist UN global policies without we the people's permission.

6a4. Canada is not a free nation anymore but is now part of the global nation where our ways of doing things must go because they conflict with the globalists UN ideology. 

6b1. So, if one calls him/herself a Nationalist that someone must mean that they have to be racist,, prejudice and xenophobia and support the KKK. 

6b2. You have offered nothing here in trying to solve Canada's debt and job loss problems.

6b3. Everything wrong today in Canada is the prime mistakes fault.

6b4. While Trump tries to support business and the creation of more jobs

6b5. You said that you prefer effective government maybe you can tell me where you see that happening in Canada today? I only see disaster. 

7a. Like giving away billions of our tax dollars to foreign countries who do not deserve our tax dollars and done again without we the people's permission.

7b. South Africa receives foreign aid from Canada and yet there have been thousands of white farmers that have and are still being seriously injured or killed and that includes women and children today by black African Mandela communists who hate white people 

1. I don't have time to wade through that cesspool. My simple test is if something is believed by the same sort of people who believe that 9/11 was a hoax, it can usually be dismissed.  UN conspiracies fall in that same category

Per RationalWiki, there's nothing there: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Agenda_21

2a. I meant the debt went down and back up.

Debt:

Deficit:

We have the lowest government net debt to GDP ratio of any G7 country 

2b. Maybe, but I appreciate most of those programs. Note the GST brings in 6-7 billion per point. Last year I think it was ~33 billion

2c. Purchasing power parity in Canada is at ~80 cents, so the exchange rate is close to where it theoretically should be.

3. Perhaps

4. Multiculturalism is not genocide. Worst case is that in theory "white european culture" may, at some time in the distant future, no longer be the dominant one in Canada. This is not genocide by any definition of the term ... any more than the slow erosion of French culture in Quebec and Maritime Canada is genocide. Note that should "white european culture" become a minority, multiculturalism would make it a priority to protect it.

6a1. I dont think all is hunky dory. I disagree with the vast majority of what our government does and how it does it. But in the details, and not the overall foundation.  The modern secular democratic welfare state is empirically the best form of government from all that have been tried.

6a2. A century ... how old are you!

6a3. They have permission.  This is how representative democracy works

6a4. Being part of a "global nation" makes Canada no less free than being a part of the Canadian nation makes you less free.  Anarchy at any level is not good, and is not "freedom" regardless.  Not having (well, having but much weaker and more informal) an overarching framework for national conduct prior to WWII lead to things like ... well, World Wars.

6b1. No.  I am to an extent nationalist. Someone could, in theory, be right wing and nationalist without the attendant prejudice, but "Right Wing Nationalists" have a long, consistent, and disturbing history, of using nationalism to mean superiority of race, culture, and/or religion, and to use this "superiority" to justify prejudice, discrimination, hate, and violence. So sceptisism is warranted.

6b2. Debt: In general I would do a combination of temporary tax increases combined with program cuts.  As the debt reduced and so the interest spent maintaining I would use that money to first reduce the temporary tax increases then use it for tax decreases, program spending, or accelerated debt repayment as appropriate.

Jobs: I am of the opinion that the "hollowing out "of manufacturing is inevitable, and due to the gains in artificial intelligence and automation we are a few decades away from "the end of work", meaning that increasingly jobs, both unskilled but also many white collar jobs as well will be eliminated as huge sections of the workforce are automated away. While this will result in a small amount of new maintenance and computer related jobs, it will not offset those lost, and there will simply not be enough jobs for everyone. Productivity will not decline, but without jobs there will be no way to convert that productivity into income for an increasingly large portion of the population.  I would therefor work to implement a universal basic income.  In the short term, a universal basic income encourages entrepreneurship and retraining as it provides a measure of security to allow experimentation, and does not "punish work" as most welfare/EI programs do

6b3. That's an exaggeration and you know it.

6b4. Trumps tariffs were one of the major factors GM cited in the plant closures

6b5. I disagree with ~75% of Trudeau's actions.  But I lived through Harper where I disagreed with 90+%. And the country survived.  It is quite resiliant.

7a. Again, representative democracy = permission

7b. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/white-farmers-south-africa/

Edited December 5, 2018 by TTM

[taxme]

On 12/4/2018 at 5:42 PM, TTM said:

1. I don't have time to wade through that cesspool. My simple test is if something is believed by the same sort of people who believe that 9/11 was a hoax, it can usually be dismissed.  UN conspiracies fall in that same category

Per RationalWiki, there's nothing there: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Agenda_21

2a. I meant the debt went down and back up.

Debt:

Deficit:

We have the lowest government net debt to GDP ratio of any G7 country 

2b. Maybe, but I appreciate most of those programs. Note the GST brings in 6-7 billion per point. Last year I think it was ~33 billion

2c. Purchasing power parity in Canada is at ~80 cents, so the exchange rate is close to where it theoretically should be.

3. Perhaps

4. Multiculturalism is not genocide. Worst case is that in theory "white european culture" may, at some time in the distant future, no longer be the dominant one in Canada. This is not genocide by any definition of the term ... any more than the slow erosion of French culture in Quebec and Maritime Canada is genocide. Note that should "white european culture" become a minority, multiculturalism would make it a priority to protect it.

6a1. I dont think all is hunky dory. I disagree with the vast majority of what our government does and how it does it. But in the details, and not the overall foundation.  The modern secular democratic welfare state is empirically the best form of government from all that have been tried.

6a2. A century ... how old are you!

6a3. They have permission.  This is how representative democracy works

6a4. Being part of a "global nation" makes Canada no less free than being a part of the Canadian nation makes you less free.  Anarchy at any level is not good, and is not "freedom" regardless.  Not having (well, having but much weaker and more informal) an overarching framework for national conduct prior to WWII lead to things like ... well, World Wars.

6b1. No.  I am to an extent nationalist. Someone could, in theory, be right wing and nationalist without the attendant prejudice, but "Right Wing Nationalists" have a long, consistent, and disturbing history, of using nationalism to mean superiority of race, culture, and/or religion, and to use this "superiority" to justify prejudice, discrimination, hate, and violence. So sceptisism is warranted.

6b2. Debt: In general I would do a combination of temporary tax increases combined with program cuts.  As the debt reduced and so the interest spent maintaining I would use that money to first reduce the temporary tax increases then use it for tax decreases, program spending, or accelerated debt repayment as appropriate.

Jobs: I am of the opinion that the "hollowing out "of manufacturing is inevitable, and due to the gains in artificial intelligence and automation we are a few decades away from "the end of work", meaning that increasingly jobs, both unskilled but also many white collar jobs as well will be eliminated as huge sections of the workforce are automated away. While this will result in a small amount of new maintenance and computer related jobs, it will not offset those lost, and there will simply not be enough jobs for everyone. Productivity will not decline, but without jobs there will be no way to convert that productivity into income for an increasingly large portion of the population.  I would therefor work to implement a universal basic income.  In the short term, a universal basic income encourages entrepreneurship and retraining as it provides a measure of security to allow experimentation, and does not "punish work" as most welfare/EI programs do

6b3. That's an exaggeration and you know it.

6b4. Trumps tariffs were one of the major factors GM cited in the plant closures

6b5. I disagree with ~75% of Trudeau's actions.  But I lived through Harper where I disagreed with 90+%. And the country survived.  It is quite resiliant.

7a. Again, representative democracy = permission

7b. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/white-farmers-south-africa/

4. Multiculturalism/diversity is a recipe for genocide of our Western culture and traditions and heritage. Do you honestly think that all those non Western people coming to Canada care about our culture and traditions? Give you head a shake, man. 

6b1. Nationalism is not a dirty word as some in the fake and phony leftist Canadian liberal media like to try and make it appear to be, and it is as though it is somehow trying to promote the KKK. I am a nationalist and proud to say so. I am not a globalist. Liberalism/socialism is being treated as a wonderful ideology but in reality liberalism is pretty much close to communism. They both are against free speech unless it is their free speech. They both are very intolerant and very bigoted of those who hold different views and opinions to their views and opinions. Socialism when adopted does eventually lead to communism. 

 "Jobs". If what you say will happen as a result of AI, then why does our government keep bringing in hundreds of thousands of new immigrants, plus legal and illegal ones, by the tens of thousands every year? Are they insane? If jobs are going to disappear as you believe that they will than there is no need to bring in more immigrants into Canada. It is time for a moratorium now. Trudeau and his Somali immigration minister have plans to bring in one million new immigrants in the next three years. This is madness. And where are you going to get the money to bring in "universal basic income from? I know from where? From who else but the globalist international banksters of course who stand to make billions of interest from the taxpayers of Canada to do all of this save the humanity bull chit. You better start thinking about what all this immigration is going to do to Canada and Canadians in the near future if immigration en masse is allowed to continue. If you do not care about yourself then maybe it is time for you to think about your grandchildren who will be reaping the mess that you sow. 

6b4. There should be no tariffs between Canada and the USA at all when we are supposed to be great friends and neighbors. Do not blame Trump for GM closing shop. Blame your present day prime mistake of Canada who has not done a thing to try and save those jobs or any jobs, except maybe Bombardier jobs in Quebec. All that misfit thinks about is flooding Canada with more 3rd world immigrants and is more concerned about LGBQT and sex gender rights nonsense. Those are not very big job producers for Canadians. Trudeau is Canada and Canadians problem and it is not Trumps fault for what is going on in Canada. You need to get your facts right. 

6b5. I disagree 100% with what the kid is doing which is nothing good or great for Canada or Canadians, again, except for immigrants and the promotion of sexual perversions. 

7a. If that is what you want to call "representative democracy" well you have no idea as to what those two words really mean at all? When your dear leader politicians start stealing billions of our Canadian taxpayers tax dollars and start giving them away willy-nilly to foreigners in other countries without our taxpayer permission that is theft of taxpayers tax dollars and nothing more. That is not our so called politicians were elected to do. They were elected to look after our tax dollars and not blow them on their/UN pet liberal/socialist/communist United Nations programs and agendas. They are voted in to look after our tax dollars and not waste tax dollars and run Canada wisely instead of with total stupidity and with I do not care attitude with our lives and tax dollars. . 

You really need to stop trying to protect those thieves, cheats and liars in Ottawa who could careless about you or me or thee in Canada. It is all about them and nothing more. Hello?  It's wakey-wakey time.  

 

PS: Snopes is just another leftist liberal propaganda machine that tells more lies than tells the truth. What is going on in South Africa against white farmers is for real. If you took the time to check out as to what is being said about all the killings going on in South Africa on the internet you would learn something besides nothing all the time. White genocide is happening in South Africa today and thank gawd Trump is looking into it a little further. Your dear leader of Canada prefers to ignore the facts about what is happening to the white farmers of South Africa. Many South Africans have applied for refugee status in Canada and what is your prime mistake of Canada's reply? Who gives a chit. I guess refugees from the 3rd world are more important to him and his Somali immigration minister than white people are. Just saying. 

Edited December 8, 2018 by taxme

[TTM]

22 hours ago, taxme said:

4. Do you honestly think that all those non Western people coming to Canada care about our culture and traditions? Give you head a shake, man. 

6b1. Nationalism is not a dirty word 

6b2. "Jobs". If what you say will happen as a result of AI, then why does our government keep bringing in hundreds of thousands of new immigrants

...

If jobs are going to disappear as you believe that they will than there is no need to bring in more immigrants into Canada.

...

It is time for a moratorium now. Trudeau and his ... immigration minister have plans to bring in one million new immigrants in the next three years.

...

And where are you going to get the money to bring in "universal basic income from?

...

You better start thinking about what all this immigration is going to do to Canada and Canadians

6b4. There should be no tariffs between Canada and the USA at all when we are supposed to be great friends and neighbors.

...

Do not blame Trump for GM closing shop. Blame your present day prime [minister] of Canada

...

It is not Trumps fault for what is going on in Canada. You need to get your facts right. 

6b5. I disagree 100% with what the kid is doing which is nothing good or great for Canada or Canadians, again, except for immigrants and the promotion of sexual perversions. 

7a. If that is what you want to call "representative democracy" well you have no idea as to what those two words really mean at all? ... They are voted in to look after our tax dollars and not waste tax dollars and run Canada wisely instead of with total stupidity and with I do not care attitude with our lives and tax dollars. 

8. If you took the time to check out as to what is being said about all the killings going on in South Africa on the internet you would learn something besides nothing all the time. White genocide is happening in South Africa today .... 

4. Do you honestly believe these non western people come here with the sole purpose of subverting our western values?  Give your head a shake, man.

6b1. Not "nationalism", but "right-wing nationalism", which for the most part has little to do with "right wing" and more to do with "white".  

6b2. This is the future, not now (although the impacts are perhaps starting). There are still economic arguments for immigration

...

There will always be some reasons for migration.  But yes, lower immigration targets if/when this occurs might make sense

 ...

That is not a significant change from the rate for the last 2 decades

...

Productivity (wealth generation) would not go down (other than potentially due to loss of consumers) with automation, but the ability of the average citizen would be cut off from this as they can no longer offer their labour for wages.  The universal basic income would be a mechanism to distribute this wealth, it would not need to be debt financed.

Prior to that it would replace the existing social safety net with one that is simpler to administer, more comprehensive, and more encouraging to retraining, work, and entrepreneurship. 

...

I don't fear brown people 

6b4. "Tariff Man" is the one responsible for this.

...

No, blame GM.  But it is amusing you can't place any blame at all on Trump when GM itself does

...

Your argument is schizophrenic... GM plant closes in Canada, 100% Trudeau's fault ... 2 GM plants close in the US as part of the same set of closures, just GM trying to maximize profits

6b5. Lol. Perversions

7a. When voted in, they were empowered to make decisions on our behalf within the limits of our constitution. What other "permission" do they need? If the majority of the country do not agree with their decisions, they will be voted out when the time comes.

8. I'm sure on the websites you peruse, they talk a lot about this "white genocide".  

[taxme]

4 hours ago, TTM said:

4. Do you honestly believe these non western people come here with the sole purpose of subverting our western values?  Give your head a shake, man.

6b1. Not "nationalism", but "right-wing nationalism", which for the most part has little to do with "right wing" and more to do with "white".  

6b2. This is the future, not now (although the impacts are perhaps starting). There are still economic arguments for immigration

...

There will always be some reasons for migration.  But yes, lower immigration targets if/when this occurs might make sense

 ...

That is not a significant change from the rate for the last 2 decades

...

Productivity (wealth generation) would not go down (other than potentially due to loss of consumers) with automation, but the ability of the average citizen would be cut off from this as they can no longer offer their labour for wages.  The universal basic income would be a mechanism to distribute this wealth, it would not need to be debt financed.

Prior to that it would replace the existing social safety net with one that is simpler to administer, more comprehensive, and more encouraging to retraining, work, and entrepreneurship. 

...

I don't fear brown people 

6b4. "Tariff Man" is the one responsible for this.

...

No, blame GM.  But it is amusing you can't place any blame at all on Trump when GM itself does

...

Your argument is schizophrenic... GM plant closes in Canada, 100% Trudeau's fault ... 2 GM plants close in the US as part of the same set of closures, just GM trying to maximize profits

6b5. Lol. Perversions

7a. When voted in, they were empowered to make decisions on our behalf within the limits of our constitution. What other "permission" do they need? If the majority of the country do not agree with their decisions, they will be voted out when the time comes.

8. I'm sure on the websites you peruse, they talk a lot about this "white genocide".  

Flooding Canada with immigrants from the third world and sexual perversions is Trudeau's game that he likes to play with all and every day. 

Blaming is all our leftist liberal media and people like yourself like to do all day against Trump. Trump is looking after America way more than your prime mistake is looking after Canada. The kid is responsible for many jobs lost in Canada, like the tens of thousands of jobs that have been lost due to no pipelines getting built, and the reason why our dollar(peso)is now as low as it is. Just a few years ago our Canadian dollar was above par. In the years after that it went for a dump which tells me that our politicians were responsible for that and not Trump. 

I do not fear brown people either. It is the numbers of those brown people that I fear coming into Canada. The white people in Canada are committing genocide when approx. 80% of our new immigrants are coming from third world countries. All white Canadians should be concerned about this replacement that is happening right before their own blindfolded eyes and be informed about and by our lame duck leftist liberal media and never to forget that our politically correct politicians could careless also.  All you and the media ever think about every day for the past two years now is Trump-Trump-Trump. While Canada burns people like you prefer to attack and mock Trump without any good real reason why. 

Well, thanks to the alternative media websites no one would have known about crimes against humanity of the raping, pillage and murder of men,women and children that is happening in South Africa by blacks towards white people. That is white genocide period. I have mentioned this here many times but no one cared to reply. But when some non-white gets yelled at with a racial slur by some white person it suddenly becomes front page news all over Canada and the world. it's bloody pathetic. Maybe you could careless about what is happening in South Africa but I and many others do care. We refuse to become cowards and wimps and politically correct fools and run and hide like so many Canadians do just to go along with their peers. 

In the next election go ahead and vote for Trudeau. He really does care about you and your well being. And just stay out of his way or he will run you over with his leftist feminist liberal pretty much communist bs agenda. LOL. 

[August1991]

1. Any government has the right to take money from your bank account whenever it wants. Hence, the idea of government "debt" is irrelevant - as long as people have savings.

2. As a Quebecer, Trump's tax plan was, uh, surprising. I was surprised to learn that - before Trump - Californians could reduce their federal income tax by declaring their Californian state income tax as a federal deduction. Even in Quebec, I cannot declare my federal tax payment as a legitimate tax deduction.

=====

IMV, Trump is making America more civilized, like Canada.

Edited December 10, 2018 by August1991