Harper agrees to ND's "pairing" offer

[Black Dog]

The Story.

I would have thought a man of such upstanding moral character as Harper would be unwilling to accept charity from a bunch of "whores".

[takeanumber]

The Liberals have been pairing with the BQ for ages, and I believe that it's a good thing.

As for the Cons, once again you have this double standard: when it comes to Cadman and two liberal cabinet ministers being away: their votes don't count. When suddenly the tables are turned, and one of their members is going to be away, well then -- it's totally different then, isn't?

Give me a break.

I listened to the deputy whip today talk about whether or not he was going to accept the NDP's offer of pairing, and he came out with an answer weasily enough to qualify as a Chretienism.

"Should the offer be made we have said that we would certainly consider the notion of pairing but the vote should be on Monday..." blah blah blah.

Terrible behaviour on both sides of the house. The only party really acting properly, both in terms of decorum and ethics, is the NDP.

Frankly, that reality makes me sick. To think that I'd be brought to say that the NDP has more class and tact than the other parties...gawd, how far we've come.

[I miss Reagan]

Leave it to you two to spin this into a negative portrayal of the conservatives. I'm am now convinced that it is people like you who are managing the news rooms in this country. Before I read this I was just about to mention how honorable it was of the NDP to make this offer considering it is an NDP budget. Obviously the Liberals are the scum of the earth, capitalizing on cancer.

[Black Dog]

Leave it to you two to spin this into a negative portrayal of the conservatives.  I'm am now convinced that it is people like you who are managing the news rooms in this country.  Before I read this I was just about to mention how honorable it was of the NDP to make this offer considering it is an NDP budget.  Obviously the Liberals are the scum of the earth, capitalizing on cancer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is an honourable move by the NDP, in asmuch as such a thing exists. In case you didn't catch it, my earlier comment was not directed at the Conservatives themselves so much as Conservative supporters on this board who hammered on the ND's alleged lack of ethics in trying to get their priorities addressed in the budget. That, apparently, made them whores, while Harper's earlier cooperation on the budget made him...what? A stand-up guy? (Not that I come here expecting sober analysis or anything.... )

[I miss Reagan]

While I harbor much disdain for NDP ideology, I don't blame Layton for using the Libs to accomplish what he feels are worthy objectives. I think Martin is disgusting for spending 22 billion in 20 days trying to buy off everyone in sight. Equally disgusting are the greedy premiers McGuinty and Williams for taking advantage of the weakling, PM, to squeeze out even more money. It's like a friggen pinata has popped and people are panicking to hoard all the loot they can.

[ScottBrison]

The only thing I'll say is this: I'm very happy that Ed Broadbent offered what he did, because now the Conservative Alliance won't have any excuses when they lose the Confidence vote on Thursday.

[August1991]

Pairing is common in stable minority situations but not at other times.

Meighen's government was defeated in 1926 because the "pair" showed up for the vote (reneging on the agreement). It has been argued that Clark's government fell in 1979 through a similar subterfuge.

Harper would not trust the Liberals to such a deal but no doubt he has decided to trust the NDP and in particular Broadbent. Bear in mind too that this agreement is very public. (I suspect it was Layton who suggested that Broadbent be the pair but I don't know.)

I am astonished that we must wait until Thursday for a vote. This is highly irregular.

The only thing I'll say is this: I'm very happy that Ed Broadbent offered what he did, because now the Conservative Alliance won't have any excuses when they lose the Confidence vote on Thursday.

It is sad for Canada when people put partisanship ahead of democracy. This is why I find English Canadians ultimately a small people.

[takeanumber]

This is why I find English Canadians ultimately a small people.

In light of the Gomery inquiry, it's very tempting to make a number of blanket statements about the nature of Quebeckers.

We're bigger than that, so we won't.

----

The only thing I'll say is this: I'm very happy that Ed Broadbent offered what he did, because now the Conservative Alliance won't have any excuses when they lose the Confidence vote on Thursday.

Ed Broadbent: stand up guy. Don't like his politics, but his heart is in the right place.

-----

I think Martin is disgusting for spending 22 billion in 20 days trying to buy off everyone in sight.

I like the NDP budget part, with the cancelling of planned tax cuts for corporations. I like the fact that a lot of money is being spent on priority areas, especially daycare.

I'm not happy with the pork to Bombardier.

I think most of the spending announcements is just recycled money from the budget...reannouncing money and rearranging money. The 20 billion in 22 days line is fictional. I'd hazard to guess that it's closer to 3 billion or so.

-------

Leave it to you two to spin this into a negative portrayal of the conservatives. I'm am now convinced that it is people like you who are managing the news rooms in this country. Before I read this I was just about to mention how honorable it was of the NDP to make this offer considering it is an NDP budget. Obviously the Liberals are the scum of the earth, capitalizing on cancer.

The Cons don't need my help to be portrayed in a negative light.

I am astonished that we must wait until Thursday for a vote. This is highly irregular.

There's a good reason for it. The Queen and the British Columbia Election.

These events are outside of Quebec however, so I understand why many in Quebec don't see why they should wait. However, this is going to be one of the few times that Quebec doesn't get what it wants.

As for the capitalizing on cancer remark...now leave it to a con to portray a liberal in a negative light. I'm convinced that it's people like you who are managing the news rooms in this country: The National Post, Calgary Herald, and that beacon of Canadian production values: Global Television. (Hmmmm, I can't get enough of Train 48 and Global National...with its 'public access' feel.)

----------

[I miss Reagan]

In light of the Gomery inquiry, it's very tempting to make a number of blanket statements about the nature of Quebeckers.

We're bigger than that, so we won't.

said the pot to the kettle...

The 20 billion in 22 days line is fictional. I'd hazard to guess that it's closer to 3 billion or so.

20 billion, 3 billion what's the difference it's just pocket change right? Just raise taxes and it's all good.

There's a good reason for it. The Queen and the British Columbia Election.

....and I have to get my nails done on Wednesday and...

[takeanumber]

said the pot to the kettle... rolleyes.gif

What are you implying?

I said it was tempting, I never did.

laugh.gif 20 billion, 3 billion what's the difference it's just pocket change right? Just raise taxes and it's all good.

3 billion, especially when it's over 5 years..as most liberal promises are, is pretty small.

It's money well spent...except for some of the pure pork that helps nobody but business.

...and I have to get my nails done on Wednesday and... rolleyes.gif

Good, so you'll be fresh to catch the non-confidence vote on thursday.

[August1991]

This is why I find English Canadians ultimately a small people.

In light of the Gomery inquiry, it's very tempting to make a number of blanket statements about the nature of Quebeckers.

We're bigger than that, so we won't.

I'll pick on you TalkNumb, because you seem like the kind of guy who can take it, but in fact I mean it to others here as well.

You fundamentally don't get it.

From the perspective of people in Quebec, this scandal is entirely the doing of federalist Liberals - both French and allophones. These federalist Liberals never really represented Quebec society and they certainly don't now. For some reason, English Canada thinks of them as "Quebec". They're not.

I have heard many times that "Quebec plays the federal system well" - or, "Quebec always gets what it wants". You said as much elsewhere in this thread.

It is the Federal Liberal Party that has played this game. For all I know, it may well successfully do it again despite the absolute absurdity of the situation.

Over the the past few days, I have heard nothing but absolute disgust or derision expressed towards these people. Liberal supporters in English Canada are absolutely clueless if they think the Liberals are the party of "national unity".

----

As to my reference about "small people", this is what I was thinking. Rene Levesque set a high standard in Quebec: He placed democracy above partisanship. On n'est pas un petit peuple, mais on est peut-être quelque chose comme un grand peuple. English Canada desperately needs a politician like that now.

I'm not happy with the pork to Bombardier.

Neither am I. But what about the larger grants/loan guarantees given to Ford and GM? I heard Lapierre on the radio today claiming that if the government falls, the money won't be forthcoming.

I think most of the spending announcements is just recycled money from the budget...reannouncing money and rearranging money. The 20 billion in 22 days line is fictional. I'd hazard to guess that it's closer to 3 billion or so.

You are right (although you'll often hear claims that it is "new money"). In addition, federal budget numbers are typically part of five year plans. Frankly though, at this point, I think the numbers are pulled purely out of thin air.

I like the NDP budget part, with the cancelling of planned tax cuts for corporations. I like the fact that a lot of money is being spent on priority areas, especially daycare.

Gimme a break.

I am astonished that we must wait until Thursday for a vote. This is highly irregular.

There's a good reason for it. The Queen and the British Columbia Election.

You don't really believe that, do you? I think this is some kind of weird mindset. As Chretien said, "I'll leave but on my timetable."

The only thing I'll say is this: I'm very happy that Ed Broadbent offered what he did, because now the Conservative Alliance won't have any excuses when they lose the Confidence vote on Thursday.

Ed Broadbent: stand up guy. Don't like his politics, but his heart is in the right place.

I don't think this was Broadbent's idea. I think rather that he is the only person with the credibility to make it work. Canadian politics used to have more people like that. Gentlemen.

I say this again: Since Pearson and Diefenbaker, English Canada has not had a decent leader who speaks for English Canada. It's too bad that Stephen Harper is perceived as being a Westerner and he may well be a little too in advance of his time. He's from a post-logo world.

[Guest eureka]

I won't "pick on you, August," even though it is you who doesn't get it. I will try to penetrate the cloud that has enveloped your mind, though.

This is not the federalist Liberals doing from the perspective of people in Quebec and I have recently spoken to some. It is the perspective of those who can think no further than the old "victim" mythology and some more, for the present, who read or hear only your not very impartial media.

These Federal Liberals do represent Quebec and they do it well. They were elected by Quebeckers and the line that they do not represent them is patently absurd. They, in fact, represent Quebeckers in that they would save Quebec from the storm that will follow lack of federal represenatation.

Your frequent songs of praise for Rene Levesque indicate to me that you really do not understand the Rule of Law or Democracy. Levesque was a nasty, small minded man, who had no association with either. I once took Levesque apart at a public meeting when explaining the Rule of Law to him and I have done so in writing to him about democracy.

I, on a couple of occasions, straightened Daniel Turp out on the latter at public meetings.

To a point, I agree that English Canada needs a leader like Quebec: one who will, while professing embarassment, will stamp on Quebec until it is once again a responsible part of Canada.

The rest of your meanderings, I will leave to some other.

[takeanumber]

Superior replies August.

You fundamentally don't get it.

From the perspective of people in Quebec, this scandal is entirely the doing of federalist Liberals - both French and allophones. These federalist Liberals never really represented Quebec society and they certainly don't now. For some reason, English Canada thinks of them as "Quebec". They're not.

I'm not going to disparage an entire people. I think many Quebeckers are innocent of what went on. I think quite a few Quebeckers, both sovereinists and federalists, are quite guilty.

Neither am I. But what about the larger grants/loan guarantees given to Ford and GM? I heard Lapierre on the radio today claiming that if the government falls, the money won't be forthcoming.

I'm not a fan of Ford/GM Pork. Yes, the feds poured 300 mil in after the Ontario 500 mil.

It's all corporate welfare, and it isn't right.

Just because "it happens in Ontario too" doesn't make it any more right for it to be going on in Quebec, or anywhere, for that matter.

You are right (although you'll often hear claims that it is "new money"). In addition, federal budget numbers are typically part of five year plans. Frankly though, at this point, I think the numbers are pulled purely out of thin air.

We agree.

QUOTE

I like the NDP budget part, with the cancelling of planned tax cuts for corporations. I like the fact that a lot of money is being spent on priority areas, especially daycare.

Gimme a break.

Some of the spending is good. I mean...it's hard to be against post secondary students and children.

QUOTE

QUOTE

I am astonished that we must wait until Thursday for a vote. This is highly irregular.

There's a good reason for it. The Queen and the British Columbia Election.

You don't really believe that, do you? I think this is some kind of weird mindset. As Chretien said, "I'll leave but on my timetable."

I do.

Imagine the outcry if the Queen didn't come and spoiled the Alberta/Sask. centennial?

Moreover, at least let the BC election get finished with before launching into a new one.

So yeah, I do buy it.

I don't think this was Broadbent's idea. I think rather that he is the only person with the credibility to make it work. Canadian politics used to have more people like that. Gentlemen.

We agree at least that he's a gentleman.

I have heard many times that "Quebec plays the federal system well" - or, "Quebec always gets what it wants". You said as much elsewhere in this thread.

In general, Quebec does get what it wants, and worse, they're always the victim.

They're net beneficiaries of EI. The BQ response: QC is the victim.

They're net beneficiaries of the transfers: The BQ response: QC is the victim.

They're the net beneficiaries of MUCH of the sponsorship money (Mtl Grand Prix, for instance): The BQ response: QC is the victim.

sigh.

Thank god that most Quebeckers are decent people. But man, most sovereignists have some serious victim issues.

[kimmy]

Imagine the outcry if the Queen didn't come and spoiled the Alberta/Sask. centennial?

Is that for real? That the Queen wouldn't come if there was a non-confidence vote? I honestly don't understand the logic that the vote had to wait until she's already here.

-k

[ScottBrison]

She's leaving on Wednesday, and it's tradition that the Queen won't come into the country when there is an election, because the Primie Minister is obligated, also by tradition, to host the Queen while she's here and she doesn't want to give the appearance she's favoring one party over another.

Now whether anyone would actually change their vote based on this is another matter, but it would give Harper one more thing to complain about, and for the love of GOD we don't need that.

[kimmy]

Dude, she's not leaving until Wednesday May 25.

CBC Saskatchewan: Queen's visit.

She'll be here during the non-confidence vote.

The Star: Queen to visit during turmoil.

(in Saskatcuewan, the Queen will...) Be entertained by the square-dancing Riel Reelers, who are backed by a country band called the Tex Pistols, whose latest album is entitled AAIIEE!!

There is to be a mass singing of "Happy Birthday Alberta" in Calgary's Commonwealth Stadium on May 23.

Either they've moved Commonwealth Stadium, or Calgary has annexed the rest of the province.

Klein's doing, no doubt.

-k

[I miss Reagan]

You are right (although you'll often hear claims that it is "new money"). In addition, federal budget numbers are typically part of five year plans.

From what I understand of the 20 billion, 9 billion is new money.

Saskatchewan get's it's piece. Have you ever seen Dumb and Dumber when they're standing at the Hotel handing out hundreds and saying "there you go, there you go"...

[ScottBrison]

Dude, she's not leaving until Wednesday May 25.

Hmmm, didn't know, I thought she was only here for 2 day.

It remains a mute point however as the government is going to win the confidence vote, and there won't be an election.

[bigdude]

It is sad for Canada when people put partisanship ahead of democracy. This is why I find English Canadians ultimately a small people.

Care to elaborate on such a brilliant comment!

[lenwick]

Harper brought the mp to vote with cancer knowing he couldn't stay.it was a set up to get sym'pathy.That is one of the more sick things ive ever seen