Stephen Harper

[willy]

knn, the Conservatives are people not an entity. They are people like me. It is a shame when I hold the views I do that you must vilify and make me out as hateful.

I would suggest that the closed mind you show to opinions like mine speaks more of yourself than it does of me.

I appreciate everyone’s opportunity to promote there ideas and I support left thinking people in their right to fight for their ideals. It is a shame the same belief does not go both ways.

[knn]

willy Posted on Feb 20 2005, 01:13 AM

knn, the Conservatives are people not an entity. They are people like me. It is a shame when I hold the views I do that you must vilify and make me out as hateful.

Show me in which post I "villified" you or stated that you made any such statments. I pointed out the Reform/Alliance/Conservative voting record on minority rights and their history of making racist and intolerant remarks.

If you are a member of that party and IF you support such remarks, then that's your burden, not mine.

[willy]

I pointed out the Reform/Alliance/Conservative voting record on minority rights and their history of making racist and intolerant remarks.

What votes and which minorities?

They haven't and that's a fact.

I have no burden and that's my point. Being a fiscal and social conservative is alright by me.

I do remember two Liberals that have made racist remarks in the last two years, Heddy Fry and Eleanor Capelin.

Show me in which post I "villified" you or stated that you made any such statments.

voting record on minority rights and their history of making racist and intolerant remarks.

I consider being called a racist vilifying when their is no substance to the accusation.

[knn]

knn Posted:

Show me in which post I "villified" you or stated that you made any such statments.

willy Posted:

I consider being called a racist vilifying when their is no substance to the accusation.

Your answer is a non-answer. Obviously you CANNOT show me a post where I said "you" made those statements. As I stated before, I was speaking of the Reform/Alliance/Conservative Party.

[knn]

knn Posted:

...the Reform/Alliance/Conservative voting record on minority rights and their history of making racist and intolerant remarks.

willy Posted: Feb 20 2005, 03:17 AM 

What votes and which minorities?

They haven't and that's a fact.

Where to begin... Here's a few quotes on the Reform/Alliance/Conservative's history of making racist and intolerant remarks:

• “This bedroom bill extends benefits based on sexual activity”.

- John Reynolds (future Government House Leader?)

• “I find it repulsive”.

- John Williams (future President of Treasury Board?)

• “What we are really talking about (is) sexual behaviour”.

- Stephen Harper (future Prime Minister?)

• “I define the family heterosexually”:

- Stockwell Day (future Foreign Affairs Minister?)

• “Homosexuality is a repudiation of nature”.

- Art Hanger (future Minister of Immigration?)

• “Reform's official position in opposing hate crimes legislation and changes to human rights legislation to bar discrimination against gays is that there should be no categories of people that receive special treatment.”

- Preston Manning.

• "If I had a business and a homosexual was there working for me and he was responsible for my losing business, then indeed I would think of letting him go.”

- Bob Ringma.

• “Bob Ringma had been right in saying it was acceptable to fire blacks or gays or move them to the back of the shop. I don't have a problem with what this guy Bob Ringma has said because he could have made those remarks from the perspective of a businessman regardless of his employee's race or origin."

Janice Lim - Reform candidate.

• “It is unnatural and totally immoral”.

- Myron Thompson (future Minister of Justice?)

• “Society has a right to discriminate against them”.

- Dave Chatters (future Minister of Natural Resources?)

[knn]

Here's a few more:

• "When you go into the issue of homosexuals and lesbians it's in the interest of society to have the right to discriminate against that group in areas of ... schools is one that comes to mind."

Dave Chatters MP

"Homosexuality is destructive to the individual and in the long run to society."

- Preston Manning.

• “Positive reforms to human rights acts would include removing phrases such as ‘sexual orientation’ that attempt to promote deviant behaviours.”

- Peter Stock.

• "It is simply difficult – extremely difficult – for someone to become bilingual in a country that is not. And make no mistake. Canada is not a bilingual country.

- Conservative leader Stephen Harper.

• "Why do they have to be out here in the public, always debating that they want to call it marriage? Why are they in parades? Why are men dressed up as women on floats?

If they are going to live together, go live together and shut up about it."

- Elsie Wayne MP

• “Sikhs get their marching orders from Sikh temples. They don't think along the same lines" as Canadians.”

- George Rigaux.

• “For instance, I'm not opposed to gays, but if you bring one of those suckers into my school and they try to push their crap on my students, I have a problem with that."

- Myron Thompson MP

• "You have to remember that west of Winnipeg the ridings the Liberals hold are dominated by people who are either recent Asian immigrants or recent migrants from Eastern Canada; people who live in ghettos and are not integrated into Western Canadian society."

- Conservative leader Stephen Harper

• "A culture of defeat..."

- Conservative leader Stephen Harper, describing the Atlantic provinces.

[willy]

knn, I wont try and argue all these.

I will only point out a couple.

"It is simply difficult – extremely difficult – for someone to become bilingual in a country that is not. And make no mistake. Canada is not a bilingual country.

This is not an intolerant or racist statement. As a western Canadian, we have many languages spoken and I can't remember the last time I heard French being spoken in the streets of Vancouver. Harper on the other hand is working very hard at speaking French and is holding the convention in Montreal to build a better representation in the party of French speeking Canadians.

• "A culture of defeat..."

The fact that the more programs the Liberals put in place the worse off the Atlantic provinces have been is all that was intended by this very aged statement. To spin it as something else is only political opportunism that was repeated many times during the election.

________________________________________

I don't know the context of many of the statements referring to homosexuals. Some of them are unfortunate. I would suggest that men like Preston Manning don't have a hateful bone in their body. It would be unfortunate if you would be pulling these out of context. Many of these people are devote Christians and this does effect there personal view. How would they approach policy?

Current stand on SSM (only because 90% of these comments were addressed at gays and lesbians and I must say some of these comments are 10 years old):

Conservative Position: We should have same sex unions where all benefits be extended to gays and lesbian couples. The definition of the word marriage will continue to be a man and women.

IMO, this is not discriminatory as it only recognizes the unique relationship that only a man and a women can have, producing children and ideally this should be done in life long commitments. In other words marriage.

[knn]

If the best you can come up with is that "some of them are unfortunate" then you have no idea what intolerance even means.

By the way, French is not something you just ignore because you "can't remember the last time you heard French being spoken in the streets of Vancouver".

This nation was built on two official languages, French and English. For you, or Harper, to dismiss it so nonchalantly is well...I doubt if anything I say will get through to you.

[willy]

This nation was built on two official languages, French and English. For you, or Harper, to dismiss it so nonchalantly is well...I doubt if anything I say will get through to you.

I did not dismiss French. I stated a fact, it is the fifth or sixth language spoken in western Canada. Harper speaking French and working hard to gain a foothold in Quebec is not dismissive. To be a national party that represents all regions, French Canadians need to be part of the party. I look forward to seeing the growth of the party in all areas of the country.

IMO, Federal money spent on Chinese in Vancouver would be a greater expression on the resident’s needs where I live than the guarantee of service and resources delivered in French.

If the best you can come up with is that "some of them are unfortunate" then you have no idea what intolerance even means.

The question as I pointed out early knn, is your tolerance wide enough to accept people like me. I am happy to have a government that protects the rights and freedoms of gay/lesbians, ethnic backgrounds, and religious beliefs. I look forward to a pluralistic culture of tolerance and not a secular culture of exclusion. What about you, can Muslims, Jews and Christians hold devout beliefs or should they just keep them to themselves?

[BigGunner]

This nation was built on two official languages, French and English. For you, or Harper, to dismiss it so nonchalantly is well...I doubt if anything I say will get through to you.

I did not dismiss French. I stated a fact, it is the fifth or sixth language spoken in western Canada. Harper speaking French and working hard to gain a foothold in Quebec is not dismissive. To be a national party that represents all regions, French Canadians need to be part of the party. I look forward to seeing the growth of the party in all areas of the country.

IMO, Federal money spent on Chinese in Vancouver would be a greater expression on the resident’s needs where I live than the guarantee of service and resources delivered in French.

If the best you can come up with is that "some of them are unfortunate" then you have no idea what intolerance even means.

The question as I pointed out early knn, is your tolerance wide enough to accept people like me. I am happy to have a government that protects the rights and freedoms of gay/lesbians, ethnic backgrounds, and religious beliefs. I look forward to a pluralistic culture of tolerance and not a secular culture of exclusion. What about you, can Muslims, Jews and Christians hold devout beliefs or should they just keep them to themselves?

The Conservatives need to rebuke their past - knowing full well the current incarnation of the conservative politcal entity embraces its Reform and Alliance predecessors. Do conservative party supporters like yourself reject the 1993 campaign slogan of the Reform party "No More Prime Ministers From Quebec!", or do you reject the Reform proposal to scrap the multicultural spending programs the federal government established? The apparently successful painting of the conservatives as intolerant is successful because it is true. Within the last decade, elected MP's and party insiders have opened their yap-trap and spewed intolerant tripe.

How can Canadians possibly vote for a party that would see to it that not all Canadians are equal?

[caesar]

• "You have to remember that west of Winnipeg the ridings the Liberals hold are dominated by people who are either recent Asian immigrants or recent migrants from Eastern Canada; people who live in ghettos and are not integrated into Western Canadian society."

- Conservative leader Stephen Harper

What an idiotic statement.

[ticker]

Do conservative party supporters like yourself reject the 1993 campaign slogan of the Reform party "No More Prime Ministers From Quebec

Since 1968 the PM has come from Quebec except for 9 months of Clark and a couple of months for Kim Campbell.

It is that old political correctness. You are not allowed to tell the truth. After 35 years of having a Quebec PM is it unreasonable to have a PM from somewhere other then Quebec. There are 9 other provinces to choose from....

It is not like we had a PM from Quebec for 3 years and the reform said ok it is time for another province to have its turn.

[BigGunner]

Do conservative party supporters like yourself reject the 1993 campaign slogan of the Reform party "No More Prime Ministers From Quebec

Since 1968 the PM has come from Quebec except for 9 months of Clark and a couple of months for Kim Campbell.

It is that old political correctness. You are not allowed to tell the truth. After 35 years of having a Quebec PM is it unreasonable to have a PM from somewhere other then Quebec. There are 9 other provinces to choose from....

It is not like we had a PM from Quebec for 3 years and the reform said ok it is time for another province to have its turn.

You forgot about the short term of Vancouver MP John Turner. Also a non-Quebecois.

The 1993 campaign slogan of Reform was as wrong headed...would a overtly bigotted headline be any better? I mean, imagine if some party leader used "no more Jews in the public service!"...oh wait, that was done already...Adolf Hitler used that one.

So are you suggesting we use a quota system for choosing prime ministers? And what happened to the demographic realities that you seem to ignore? Quebec has 7 million people - just about as much as all of the western provinces and territories of western canada combined. Is it any wonder why Quebec has a powerful poltical influence? I mean, there are more voters in Montreal than ALL of BC.

I mean, the Reform party and its ilk since have resorted to emotional or social wedge issues when the rest of their platform is illogical. We see this political stunt being pulled at this very moment with "same sex marriage". In America, the Repugs did a wonderful job to use that wedge issue as a trojan horse so they could use a legislative crowbar to remove FDR's New Deal. Unfortunately for Canadian Conservatives, same-sex marriage is politically sellable in Canada, thanks to our nation being FAR more open minded.

The conservatives, and Reformers beforehand just didnt have the issues and policies that could get them elected. Quebec leaders or not. But - thanks to the Reform party painting all of Quebec as the villian, Quebec will never trust a western based conservative ever again. Especially one that is specifically linked to the Reform and Alliance party.

What were reformers thinking? they were in the game to form a majority government...how can you do this when you attack your own citizens?

Is it wrong to have a leader of a party from a certain area of the country? What if the party you are considering voting for has a Quebec leader? Or Newfoundland? or Sask...get the picture? Why should it matter where the leader is from? The leader could be from Yellowknife for all that matters, but if the party platform is something that I like and want in office, I'll vote for it...and I will not withold my vote because of the ethnic/cultural background of the leader...and it shouldnt matter to the enlightened, educated person. But i can see how it might sway the thinking of a racist.

[Newfie Canadian]

Well, Harper may not be able to play the "We will help Canada/US relations" card as much.

Bush Peeved with Harper too?

And this is bad news for Harper, and Jason Kenney.

Ipsos Poll.

if a federal election was held in which same-sex marriage were the main issue, the governing Liberals would get 41 per cent of the vote. The Conservatives would get 29 per cent and the NDP 13 per cent. In Quebec, the Bloc Quebecois would get 36 per cent.

The Liberals, Conservatives, NDP and currently have 37%, 26%, 17% respectively.

Add to that, according to Ipsos, Martin's approval is 56%, while Harper has 38%.

[willy]

knowing full well the current incarnation of the conservative politcal entity embraces its Reform and Alliance predecessors. Do conservative party supporters like yourself reject the 1993 campaign slogan of the Reform party "No More Prime Ministers From Quebec!",

I am proud of the Reform movement that Preston created. In 1993 the slogan was "the west wants in." The Reform party never intended on being as successful as it was. When they formed official opposition the party needed to change form a regional party to an opposition party. The alienation of the west and the discontent with the old parties was a very real thing out west and for good reason. Just look at the corruption around such issues as the sponsorship scandal today. The party that you see today is the coming together of the old coalitions that made up the PC's before 88. The big difference is that they have the advantage of taking on some very positive aspects of the Reform policy (that Harper developed as Manning strategist).

- improve accountability of MPs

- be fiscally responsible (would the Liberals have moved on the debt if not for the Reform party)

- grass roots democracy

Many of the posters on here are not exactly what I would call swing voters eh biggunner.

The NDPers must really hate, the fact that we have 100 seats.

[knn]

Latest polls out show Stephen Harper continues to drag down the Conservative Party.

Is Harper the wrong man for the job?

You betcha!

[Guest eureka]

Policies Harper develped!

Means tested healthcare is one to be really proud of, is it?

[BigGunner]

knowing full well the current incarnation of the conservative politcal entity embraces its Reform and Alliance predecessors. Do conservative party supporters like yourself reject the 1993 campaign slogan of the Reform party "No More Prime Ministers From Quebec!",

I am proud of the Reform movement that Preston created. In 1993 the slogan was "the west wants in." The Reform party never intended on being as successful as it was. When they formed official opposition the party needed to change form a regional party to an opposition party. The alienation of the west and the discontent with the old parties was a very real thing out west and for good reason. Just look at the corruption around such issues as the sponsorship scandal today. The party that you see today is the coming together of the old coalitions that made up the PC's before 88. The big difference is that they have the advantage of taking on some very positive aspects of the Reform policy (that Harper developed as Manning strategist).

- improve accountability of MPs

- be fiscally responsible (would the Liberals have moved on the debt if not for the Reform party)

- grass roots democracy

Many of the posters on here are not exactly what I would call swing voters eh biggunner.

The NDPers must really hate, the fact that we have 100 seats.

The regionalist nature of the Reform party became its self inflicted wound...one that it cannot seem to shake, even now.

No one in the east, or 'liberal' urban areas would trust the party, even with its "conservative party" paint job it gave itself.

Funny you speak of MP accountability...it was the Reform party that pushed hard for the deal to allow their members back into the gold-plated MP pension plan that they had so self-righteously opposed in 1993. Thanks to that deal with the devil, an MP is automatically enrolled in the pension plan even if he or she wanted to opt out.

Speaking of being fiscally responsible, It was also the Reform party that advocated not only to keep the GST, but expand it in a 15% "blended sales tax" similiar to what the maritime provinces have now.

Oh, and congratulations on having a 100 seat party. A signigicant gain by ending the supposed vote-splitting of the two right-ish parties. See that it still wasnt enough to win an election? The popular vote for the "Conservative Party" was almost exactly as it was under the Alliance banner. And all the anti-gay rhetoric since has not helped the party, it has driven the more socially progressive members and supporters away from the party...in the west, they drifted to the NDP, in the east, they're drifting to the Liberals. In my own westcoast seat, one that the reform party and alliance had held with 45% or more of the vote, the NDP stomped the conservatives in 2004 and actually had more popular support in terms of raw numbers than the liberals or con's. on vancouver island.

You'd think that with all the resources available to the conservatives, a floundering Liberal gov't, that Harpers party would be doing far better in the polls...if that election was held today, they'd LOSE seats.

[August1991]

The regionalist nature of the Reform party became its self inflicted wound...one that it cannot seem to shake, even now.

I don't think you understand the regional nature of Canada. The problem is far more serious than a "self-inflicted" wound.

You'll also note that the federal Liberals are not gaining against the BQ in Quebec and regardless of leader, the PQ will defeat Charest's government in the next election.

[Newfie Canadian]

regardless of leader, the PQ will defeat Charest's government in the next election.

Even if Landry is the leader, or do you mean that it doesn't matter who takes over after Landry leaves?

An expert on Québec politics I'm not, but I would suggest the only chance Charést would have is to strike an incredible blow against the "fiscal imbalance" and get what the PQ premiers haven't been able to get for Québec: what it thinks it deserves in the form of equal equalization (not Labrador ).

With Martin in a minority situation and needing Québec to get a majority, Charést may be able to do it.

Like I said, I'm not an expert, so I look forward to being corrected.

[ticker]

In my own westcoast seat, one that the reform party and alliance had held with 45% or more of the vote, the NDP stomped the conservatives in 2004 and actually had more popular support in terms of raw numbers than the liberals or con's. on vancouver island.

That is just because BC has this hang up with the word conservative. The provincial liberals are right wing to repair the damage done by the NDP. But that is ok because they do not use the word conservative.

With all that salt water scent acting like marijuana you can't set your exptations too high

[ticker]

Do conservative party supporters like yourself reject the 1993 campaign slogan of the Reform party "No More Prime Ministers From Quebec

Since 1968 the PM has come from Quebec except for 9 months of Clark and a couple of months for Kim Campbell.

It is that old political correctness. You are not allowed to tell the truth. After 35 years of having a Quebec PM is it unreasonable to have a PM from somewhere other then Quebec. There are 9 other provinces to choose from....

It is not like we had a PM from Quebec for 3 years and the reform said ok it is time for another province to have its turn.

You forgot about the short term of Vancouver MP John Turner. Also a non-Quebecois.

The 1993 campaign slogan of Reform was as wrong headed...would a overtly bigotted headline be any better? I mean, imagine if some party leader used "no more Jews in the public service!"...oh wait, that was done already...Adolf Hitler used that one.

So are you suggesting we use a quota system for choosing prime ministers? And what happened to the demographic realities that you seem to ignore? Quebec has 7 million people - just about as much as all of the western provinces and territories of western canada combined. Is it any wonder why Quebec has a powerful poltical influence? I mean, there are more voters in Montreal than ALL of BC.

I mean, the Reform party and its ilk since have resorted to emotional or social wedge issues when the rest of their platform is illogical. We see this political stunt being pulled at this very moment with "same sex marriage". In America, the Repugs did a wonderful job to use that wedge issue as a trojan horse so they could use a legislative crowbar to remove FDR's New Deal. Unfortunately for Canadian Conservatives, same-sex marriage is politically sellable in Canada, thanks to our nation being FAR more open minded.

The conservatives, and Reformers beforehand just didnt have the issues and policies that could get them elected. Quebec leaders or not. But - thanks to the Reform party painting all of Quebec as the villian, Quebec will never trust a western based conservative ever again. Especially one that is specifically linked to the Reform and Alliance party.

What were reformers thinking? they were in the game to form a majority government...how can you do this when you attack your own citizens?

Is it wrong to have a leader of a party from a certain area of the country? What if the party you are considering voting for has a Quebec leader? Or Newfoundland? or Sask...get the picture? Why should it matter where the leader is from? The leader could be from Yellowknife for all that matters, but if the party platform is something that I like and want in office, I'll vote for it...and I will not withold my vote because of the ethnic/cultural background of the leader...and it shouldnt matter to the enlightened, educated person. But i can see how it might sway the thinking of a racist.

I thought you would bring up Turner so the claim can be made there has been more then 1 year of non Quebec PMs when they are added up

As far as conservatives picking a leader from Quebec we went through that with Mulroney and him giving the cf18 contract to bombardier which should of gone to Bristol of Winnipeg with the lower bid but Mulroney let the voting numbers of Quebec take priority over making decisions based on right and wrong.

For some unknown reason some places put a higher priority on making decisions based on right and wrong instead of making the decisions based on voting numbers.

[BigGunner]

In my own westcoast seat, one that the reform party and alliance had held with 45% or more of the vote, the NDP stomped the conservatives in 2004 and actually had more popular support in terms of raw numbers than the liberals or con's. on vancouver island.

That is just because BC has this hang up with the word conservative. The provincial liberals are right wing to repair the damage done by the NDP. But that is ok because they do not use the word conservative.

With all that salt water scent acting like marijuana you can't set your exptations too high

Wow...you just don't like outsiders don't you?

Quebecers are bad, BC'ers are bad too now.

But you are right about BC's aversion to 'conservative'. BC is not a conservative province. Polls show that our citizens are socially liberal on all counts. They support the legalization of marajuana, support same-sex marriage, oppose the "war" in Iraq.

[Newfie Canadian]

I thought you would bring up Turner so the claim can be made there has been more then 1 year of non Quebec PMs when they are added up

Has anyone mentioned that John Turner was first elected as a MP from Québec.

Constituencies :

1962-1968 St-Laurent-St-Georges, Quebec.

1968-1976 Ottawa-Carleton, Ontario.

1984-1993 Vancouver Quadra, British Columbia.

[ticker]

In my own westcoast seat, one that the reform party and alliance had held with 45% or more of the vote, the NDP stomped the conservatives in 2004 and actually had more popular support in terms of raw numbers than the liberals or con's. on vancouver island.

That is just because BC has this hang up with the word conservative. The provincial liberals are right wing to repair the damage done by the NDP. But that is ok because they do not use the word conservative.

With all that salt water scent acting like marijuana you can't set your exptations too high

Wow...you just don't like outsiders don't you?

Quebecers are bad, BC'ers are bad too now.

But you are right about BC's aversion to 'conservative'. BC is not a conservative province. Polls show that our citizens are socially liberal on all counts. They support the legalization of marajuana, support same-sex marriage, oppose the "war" in Iraq.

it is only the BCers close to the salt water that seem to be affected by the salt.

must be nice to have 25 fed liberal seats in BC