Anti-Americanism

[I miss Reagan]

August why play into his game of cavilling and deflecting the issue by quibling about definitions. We all know what it means to be anti-American.

Because it's called "debate", sunshine. As much as it would tickle your fancy to have this board be a collection of bobble-heads nodding in agreement with every trite proclimation you or anyone else makes, the whole point is to exchange ideas. So don't project your failure to have any onto those of us that do.

[Guest eureka]

IMR!

Selective editing, yes, unless you could possibly take seriously that I hate my daughter-in-law: that I hate my son's friends. Added to that, I also said they hate Bush and no one who hates Bush can be hated except by Bush. It makes even less sense than to continue to harp on Parrish and to think that she said she hates Americans in general.

But it might be kind of fun to watch Yellowstone Park go up again with the biggest bang imaginable.

[Black Dog]

eureksa, some folks just don't get sarcasm unless they're smacked in the face with it. And don't even bother trying to mention the word "context".

[I miss Reagan]

IMR!

Selective editing, yes, unless you could possibly take seriously that I hate my daughter-in-law: that I hate my son's friends. Added to that, I also said they hate Bush and no one who hates Bush can be hated except by Bush. It makes even less sense than to continue to harp on Parrish and to think that she said she hates Americans in general.

But it might be kind of fun to watch Yellowstone Park go up again with the biggest bang imaginable.

If you were being sarcastic then I apologize. Your post was unclear which was why I asked you to explain. You didn't explain that your daughter-in-law was American. Forgive me for not finding the humour in the destruction of L.A. and NYC comments as there are those on this forum who feel this way.

[August1991]

... unless you could possibly take seriously that I hate my daughter-in-law: that I hate my son's friends.

That sounds suspiciously like the argument "Some of my best friends are gay/Jewish/Canadian/American..."

Added to that, I also said they hate Bush and no one who hates Bush can be hated except by Bush. It makes even less sense than to continue to harp on Parrish and to think that she said she hates Americans in general.

Over half of American voters chose Bush. What does that say?

Many anti-American Canadians dislike more than Bush. They dislike "America". Such people are typically found among the Canadian Left.

[Argus]

.

Today's education tends towards skills training more than anything substantive in the way of logic or reasoning. So you have even fourth or sixth year students who can tell you all about computers, or regurgitate various soft science theories of pop psychology and politics. But most have very little real world knowledge of socioeconomics and world politics and how they actually function. Most have never known hardship or violence or loss.

The voice of the old and wise speaks to the young and ignorant.

Argus, I suspect you suffered less hardship than your grandparents and they suffered less than their grandparents. Hardship is better avoided. Somerset Maugham noted accurately that poverty does not build character; it makes people mean and ungenerous.

A catchy saying but not altogether true. No, I actually suffered more hardship than my parents, to be honest. Only recently, in the last 5 years have I had what you might term a reasonably good and prosperous life. Having lived through, not poverty, exactly, but certainly long years of being in the ranks of the working poor has taught me to appreciate the value of money and hard work. Moreover I have faced challenges of the sort most university students have not. I am not speaking merely of poverty.

You grow through overcoming challenges. You learn to adapt, learn to deal with difficulties and hardships only when faced by them. If your life is golden then you really don't learn how to deal with crisis, and you tend to have a presumption that the perfect life is what is normal - and deserved. You come to expect everything to fall in your favour and can become quite incredulous when it doesn't. Your judgement of what is and isn't serious will also be sorely lacking.

A hundred years ago a 14 year old was a mature, responsible person. Today a twenty year old is still, more often than not, a slacker with little sense of responsibility. That's because we expect less of our young people, and protect them and coddle them far more than our parents and grandparents did.

Moreover (subject of another thread), I happen to believe that young people in Canada are among the best educated in the world and in history.  Never before or elsewhere do teachers put so much emphasis on critical thinking.  But kids are natural idealists.

I don't agree. Most of the young people I talk to are appallingly ignorant of almost everything. Many can't write coherently, or summarize their thoughts orally. Most know little or nothing about the world around them, about other nations, about geography, history, politics, economics or much of anything beyond their own field of interest. As for critical thinking - please! Intellectual laziness is what I most often observe. They seek simple answers to complicated problems and once they find them they cling to them like religious dogma, without ever bothering to explore the side affects or drawbacks of the solution they have chosen.

[Black Dog]

Many anti-American Canadians dislike more than Bush. They dislike "America". Such people are typically found among the Canadian Left.

Which really raises the question: "So?"

Is "America" sacrosanct?

[Argus]

IMR!

Selective editing, yes, unless you could possibly take seriously that I hate my daughter-in-law: that I hate my son's friends. Added to that, I also said they hate Bush and no one who hates Bush can be hated except by Bush. It makes even less sense than to continue to harp on Parrish and to think that she said she hates Americans in general.

But it might be kind of fun to watch Yellowstone Park go up again with the biggest bang imaginable.

If you were being sarcastic then I apologize. Your post was unclear which was why I asked you to explain. You didn't explain that your daughter-in-law was American. Forgive me for not finding the humour in the destruction of L.A. and NYC comments as there are those on this forum who feel this way.

It was rather obvious sarcasm. Are you, by any chance, a student at a Canadian university, or a recent graduate?

[Argus]

Many anti-American Canadians dislike more than Bush. They dislike "America". Such people are typically found among the Canadian Left.

It's certainly been my impression that they heartily dislike America for the reasons I've already enumerated. Most of their cherished beliefs in how society should function are given the finger by Americans, their society, their media and government institutions. Despite injustices, which occur in most societies, America is still the land of opportunity and considerably more succesful than Canada on almost any scale you choose to measure.

At least if you're White. :-)

[Argus]

Many anti-American Canadians dislike more than Bush. They dislike "America". Such people are typically found among the Canadian Left.

Which really raises the question: "So?"

Is "America" sacrosanct?

Nope. Except the same people who are eager to sneer at America and Americans for supposed, often imagined failures have knee-jerk reflexes which causes them to decry any such judgement when directed at other nations, societies or peoples.

[Shakeyhands]

QUOTE (August1991 @ Feb 24 2005, 07:00 PM)

Many anti-American Canadians dislike more than Bush. They dislike "America". Such people are typically found among the Canadian Left.

Pretty bold statement! You wouldn't have some sort of proof that this is the case would you?

Or is this most likely what I think it may be, and just something that you heard Bill say and thought it cool to repeat?

[Fortunata]

In a poll of a number of countries a year or so ago Canada was second only to Israel in looking favourably on Americans, I think at about 80%. Now, Argus, you can fool yourself that the 80% was made up of conservative Canadians except 80% of Canada is not conservative. Musta had some liberals in there too huh?

Your remarks do not hold water. It is another, in my view, of the typical rant against the left or any that are left of you. Canadians may not like American policy (not that they like ours either by the way) but that dislike does not translate to the American citizenship.

And, it may just appear so to me, but some of the rantings I hear about the anti-Americanism here act like it is just a Canada thing. Take a trip around the international forums - you'll find serious anti-Americanism overseas. Go to a Jamaican forum, a Mexican forum. There is a whole world out there that is not happy with the USA, many much more vocal than you hear in Canada. And, yes, people generalize but most are smart enough to know it is the policies and government that are railed against. I think it is very disingenuous to intimate otherwise.

[caesar]

True enough; most of the people on the left prefer our more humane and sympathetic approach to people down on their luck and/or suffering health problems. The right (Conservatives) biggest interest is money and to h with the others less fortunate. I tend to prefer a more central balanced position. I would like to see us help the unfortunate people who are unable to fend for themselves that have good reasons why they cannot fend for themselves; I think healthcare is something we all need at one time or another and would not want to see people suffer just because they don't have the cash to pay for expensive health care. We have to help where it is deserved and still balance the books. Too much help and there is diminished incentive to pull ones own weight

[I miss Reagan]

I tend to prefer a more central balanced position.

Caesar, coming from you, that's awsome.

most of the people on the left prefer our more humane and sympathetic approach to people down on their luck and/or suffering health problems.

The left acts on emotion rather than reason. I believe your hearts are in the right place but your methodology for problem solving is flawed. Throwing money at the downtrodden temporarily fixes a symtom but fails to cure the disease. Not only that but merely throwing money at people like our aboriginals for instance just exagerates the problem. Conservatives prefer accountibility. Bush, for example, supported extra funding for inner-city schools with the caveat that the money would be cut off if the schools didn't produce results.

[I miss Reagan]

In a poll of a number of countries a year or so ago Canada was second only to Israel in looking favourably on Americans, I think at about 80%. Now, Argus, you can fool yourself that the 80% was made up of conservative Canadians except 80% of Canada is not conservative. Musta had some liberals in there too huh?

Let's see this poll. I'd like to see the wording.

I don't understand the denial.

More insight

In stark outline, here is my theory of the bases of the wide streak of anti-Americanism among some Canadians. The root cause is those Canadians' appreciation of their weakness, a serious inferiority complex if you will. Feelings of weakness or inadequacy – even if inchoate – generate a sense of insecurity and even of fear. Insecurity and fear, in turn, generate hostility to the country against which Canada is so evidently weak – the United States.

[caesar]

The left acts on emotion rather than reason. I believe your hearts are in the right place but your methodology for problem solving is flawed. Throwing money at the downtrodden temporarily fixes a symtom but fails to cure the disease. Not only that but merely throwing money at people like our aboriginals for instance just exagerates the problem. Conservatives prefer accountibility. Bush, for example, supported extra funding for inner-city schools with the caveat that the money would be cut off if the schools didn't produce results.

Bush financially acoountable?????? I bet your kids and grandchildren won't think so after they start paying off all the money he has wasted and the huge deficit he has left behind for them to pay. If the USA doesn't go down the tubes. How many billions have been spent and will be spent on invading a country without just cause and with little positive results for the USA.

You go ahead spending your tax money on killing; we will spend ours on saving lives.

These people needing help are not just the "down trodden" They are people injured in serious accidents; those with serious health problems that cannot work.

They are middle income earners who cannot afford astronomical medical bills.

[moderateamericain]

i read through about roughly seven pages worth, some of you had some very valid points. some of you...well i just hope you dont quit your day job

i grew up in michigan, detroit to be exact and its only a stones throw from the border of canada, so i spent alot of time in windsor toronto and montreal (btw i LOVE montreal) personally my experiences were mostly good, i dated a french canadian girl for a while, went to college with some people from up there.

the one thing ive seen from you all is that elements of your societ y dislike us more than others, thats fine with most americains because elements of are own society dislike us too . My main concern that i have with my own country is the two party system, that is just ludicrous. And what is happening because of it is that in order to gain votes candidates have to be more and more extreme in there views, i catch alot of hell from people here, im considered a "fence sitter" (not that it overly bothers me) Personally hate america or not, any time you lump a whole culture of people into one opinion your just showing how dealthy afraid of yourself you are. because only a person with low self esteem would make a judgment about millions a people based on the actions of a few.

[caesar]

It is comments like Celluci's claiming that Canada is giving up its sopverneity to our airspace but not joining the missile defense shield. That sounds like a threat of invading our air space; those types of threats are not appreciated. Canadians do not want to be dictated to. Democracy rules; don't dictate. And do not violate our air space without permission and prior notice.!!!!!

[willy]

caesar, we will have to make sure to put out a request then that any country that will fire a missile at us to give up prior notice. It is only fair that the attacker give us enough time to request the US to protect us.

Now are you starting to see what Mr. Celluci was meaning? Celluci said they would protect us if we request or not. In the case of a missile coming at us, I am okay with that. If we maintain our obligation through NORAD we would not need to request help we would be part of the help.

Have you ever heard the saying don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

[I miss Reagan]

It is comments like Celluci's claiming that Canada is giving up its sopverneity to our airspace but not joining the missile defense shield. That sounds like a threat of invading our air space; those types of threats are not appreciated. Canadians do not want to be dictated to. Democracy rules; don't dictate. And do not violate our air space without permission and prior notice.!!!!!

The "no" decision was a political decision by PM (this smilie kinda looks like him eh) to appease those Canadians with an inferiority complex. It's an imature pride issue. What is bizzare is that by saying no it effectually takes away what little say we actually had in our defence. Canadians need to realize that this undiplomatic behaviour has consequences, both economic and political.

caesar, we will have to make sure to put out a request then that any country that will fire a missile at us to give up prior notice. It is only fair that the attacker give us enough time to request the US to protect us.

lol. Or I imagine the dialogue to go something like: "Mr. President we have an incoming nuclear missile heading for NYC in 20 minutes. Before we take defensive action we need to call PM Martin ( ) and ask for Canada's permission to defend ourselves."

[Guest eureka]

I used to be pretty good with a catapult and I think I will start practising. I suspect my chances of shooting down a missile from NK are better than the BMD.

I also am going to propose that all suitcases crossing a Canadian border must be made from transparent plastic. That will take care of Al Quaeda.

Problems solved.

[August1991]

i read through about roughly seven pages worth, some of you had some very valid points. some of you...well i just hope you dont quit your day job

That comment, ModerateYank, made me skip through these posts. You're right, the thread is all over the map.

BD's comment bothered me at the time, and more so again:

Anti-Americanism is used so frequently and in so many contexts that it's impossible to establish a proper definition. You choose to circumvent that by using the simplest definition: hatred of Americans based on geography and nationality. Which means there are a lot of self-haters out there (and what a comically absurd concept that is). The reality is much different. One can live according to Twain's principle "Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it." and yet, by your apparent definition, be considered anti-American.

BD's right. It is perfectly American to criticize America. Twain's phrase simplifies the idea.

I recall the first time I explained to an American that I had absolutely no desire to live in the US. She was surprised. The American flag inspires absolutely nothing in me except a waving coloured rag.

Yet I was in awe when I saw (this past summer) the words at the foot of the Statue of Liberty "... your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free... " and walked down the steps to the Kissing Post on Ellis Island. The US takes people from all over the world and somehow induces them to do collective good.

The US is a fundamentally good society. I wish more Canadians would appreciate this fact.

IMV, the anti-Americanism in Canada finds its visceral root in an Irish and French-Canadian Catholic desire to defend the underdog. (Both feel defeated.) This is layed on top of a Loyalist smugness. Added to this brew are all the immigrants who came later and discovered there were "two" Americas, not one.

You may be interested to know that René Lévesque, a great personnage of Quebec, went first abroad in the uniform of a US soldier.

Pierre Trudeau had several good lines about the US but my favourite is his speech to the US Congress in 1977. Americans think nothing of cheering a team of entirely Canadian hockey players and Canadians are just as excited to cheer a team of entirely American baseball players.

But I'll reserve the best comment for John Crosbie. "The Canadian concern about the United States and how it is going to affect our cultural values comes largely from Toronto. It comes from the cultural literati, the encyclopedia peddlers, all those people who have a direct interest in protecting their writing, or performing, or whatever they do, from U.S. competition."

[Shakeyhands]

Whatever....

[August1991]

QUOTE (August1991 @ Feb 24 2005, 07:00 PM)

Many anti-American Canadians dislike more than Bush. They dislike "America". Such people are typically found among the Canadian Left.

Pretty bold statement! You wouldn't have some sort of proof that this is the case would you?

Or is this most likely what I think it may be, and just something that you heard Bill say and thought it cool to repeat?

It's now clear how the Bush administration sees things: Canadian sovereignty exists only at its pleasure. If we do what Washington wants, we retain our sovereignty. If we don't, all bets are off.

....

No doubt the Soviets felt similar puzzlement as they rolled into Czechoslovakia in 1968. What's with these crazy Czechs? Don't they get it? All they have to do is co-operate with Moscow and they can retain their "sovereignty."

....

Ottawa showed surprising spunk last week in standing up to the American empire — a spunkiness that will only improve our standing in a world increasingly alarmed by U.S. unilateralism.

Linda McQuaig

This is what I mean. She's comparing the US with the Soviet Union. McQuaig sees Washington as a big, bad bully.

She refers to the American Empire.

The Soviet Union was a dictatorial regime run by thugs. The US is a democracy with checks and balances. The Left just doesn't get it.

[PocketRocket]

Carolyn Parrish said it best "I hate those bastards".  And her Toronto constituents validated her comments by overwhelmingly re-electing her. 

A loose cannon like Parrish can hardly be seen as representing the general public, and her generalization "those bastards", could well have meant the administration only. I never heard whether or not that was clarified.

As for her re-election, perhaps her constituents find her belligerent type of honesty refreshing.

Canadians arrogantly put their flags on their backpacks as they travel the world to tell everyone "I'm not American". 

While touring the US in a band several years ago, I proudly wore my Canadian-flag-sweatshirt.

My message was not so much "I'm not American" as it was "I'm proud to be Canadian".

My bandmates thought I was nuts. They were afraid the shirt would cause me to get in a fight.

There was only one incident, which wasn't really much of an incident at all.

One moron working in a gas station asked me "why the hell" I'd be proud of being Canadian.

I didn't take it too personally as it was a guy in his 40's, possibly even 50's working a gas bar at minimum wage. Picture-perfect stereotypical movie-hillbilly. Teeth missing. Lips stained from chewing tobacco. Bad breath you could smell from 10 feet away.

No rocket-scientist, he. Other than being a "proud American", he surely had little else to be proud of.

Every other person I spoke to was very nice, very respectful, and in some cases politely curious.

For purposes of travelling abroad, well, in Europe, Canada's contribution to WWII is still appreciated. We are appreciated.

And yes, if I ever get to travel in Europe, I will wear my flag. For both reasons. Americans are not appreciated in many parts of the world, and I see no point in being mistaken for an American by someone who may decide an American would make a good target today.

Interestingly enough, there's a company in the USA which is making a bundle selling t-shirts with Canadian flags on them.

They are most often purchased by Americans who are travelling abroad. The stated purpose, as given by the originator in a CBC radio interview, is to provide protection for Americans by "disguising" them as Canadians. Other products the company puts out are trivia books so travellers can bone up on topics most Canadians are familiar with. This supposedly completes their "disguise".