Anti-Americanism

[Grantler]

It seems to me as though Anti-Americanism in this country is out of control.

Is it right for Canadians to hate America, as they do, because of their dislike for an administration. In 4 years it will be a new one and then what?

What if the leader is another Bill Clinton who we can tolerate, do we just flip the switch back after years of constant attacks on the country as a whole?

[knn]

I don't think that Canadians "hate Americans."

We may dislike or disagree with many of their policies, their so-called values, views on capital punishment, gun use, their unjust treatment of Canadians in trade matters (even after the world courts have agreed with us over and over again.) etc.

But Americans are our neighbours. We have the longest undefended border in the world. Many of us have friends in the U.S and vice versa. It's America's policies that upset most Canadians. And very often with just cause!

[Grantler]

I guess I am just looking at it from my view on a University campus.

I am not understating that there is a large hatred for America in general, even its people.

My hometown is on the border and I also have family in the USA but it seems that a lot of students do not.

This has led to a blurring between the people and the government when we think of America.

I think that it is a problem and I am not sure why Canadians continue to assume that we are so much different than our Souther neighbours.

[kimmy]

I think that most people here would disagree that they (or Canadians in general) hate Americans. I expect you'll get a lot of challenges to that claim; I'll leave it to others.

I think the recent American election illustrated that there's quite a divide in that country, and Canadians in general feel a lot of support towards the "Blue State People". I think that the amount of support shown to Americans on one side of that political does show that Canadians (as a group) don't hate Americans but rather oppose the ideology of the other side of that divide.

I do think that many Canadians feel a sense of superiority to Americans, but that's different from hate.

We all know of Rick Mercer's experiences "Talking to Americans"; I'll mention my own. In my former position as a technical support agent, my job consisted of more or less talking to Americans for 8+ hours a day. Most people that I talked to were very nice; some of them had odd notions about Canada's weather ("Whoa, must be cold there!" in July, etc) but other than that I didn't encounter the sort of gross ignorance which some believe runs rampant among Americans. Several mentioned Canada's healthcare system as something they wanted in America. A few did indeed tell me that they wanted to move to Canada if Bush was re-elected. (I've not held that job since the election, so I can't report on what their reaction has been since.) As generalizations go, I'd mention that I found that often the nicest people I talked to were from the "Red States"-- particularly the Deep South, Texas, the Midwest. Florida callers in particular were most often very pleasant to deal with. On the other hand, many of the least pleasant people I dealt with were from the northeast, particularly New York City. I often found them combative and impatient. I attribute it to environmental stresses, not any political ideology. West coasters were also often easy-going and easy to deal with, though not generally as gregarious as the southerners. That's my experience with Americans in a nutshell. I mention it by way of pointing out that the red/blue political map represents many many real people, and that the southerners and midwest people, despite their general "Red State" tendancies, are in my experience some of the nicest people you could hope to deal with.

-kimmy

[Newfie Canadian]

I believe there is a widening philosophical gap between Americans and Canadians, but I don't believe that anti-Americanism, that is hating America and it's people, is running rampant.

I do believe however, that many Canadians have a distrust and dislike for thte governnment of the US, not just in the White House. The follks on the HIll have done little to foster warmer feelings from north of the border.

At least, that's how I see it.

[I miss Reagan]

I strongly believe Canadians hate Americans. Those who deny this are either trying to maintain Canada's image of niceness or are willfully ignorant. Carolyn Parrish said it best "I hate those bastards". And her Toronto constituents validated her comments by overwhelmingly re-electing her. Chretien him self allowed his staff get away with American bashing. Canada's identity is based on being anti-American and the CBC magnifies this and uses it as it's tool to "unite" all Canadians. From the time we are small we are told how much "nicer" and more polite we are than Americans. We are told how stupid Americans are because they know little about us. It offends our fragile ego's. (Yet the average Canadian can tell you anything about their next closest neighbor, Greenland). Canadians arrogantly put their flags on their backpacks as they travel the world to tell everyone "I'm not American".

[Newfie Canadian]

Canadians arrogantly put their flags on their backpacks as they travel the world to tell everyone "I'm not American".

I can assure you, IMR, that that is not the only reason people put the Canadian flag on their backpacks.

From the time we are small we are told how much "nicer" and more polite we are than Americans.

Aren't we?

Canada's identity is based on being anti-American

If that's what you believe, and I don't by the way, who has the inferiority complex?

Carolyn Parrish is one back bench MP.

How come nobody from the right ever mentions the venom that spewed from Pat Buchannan's mouth. And that was when US/Canada relations were good.

He was a freakin' presidential candidate for crying out loud.

Give the Parrish thing a rest.

There are idiots on both sides of the border.

[caesar]

What if the leader is another Bill Clinton who we can tolerate, do we just flip the switch back after years of constant attacks on the country as a whole?

We are not basically anti American. Many of us have many friends and relatives who are American. I believe that at least 50% of Americans are not thrilled with the actions of Bush/Cheney administration, either. We despise the present administration and the actions they have taken. No, we will not trust a new administration that quickly. The USA will have to earn back our trust with its actions under a new administration. I think that will be healthy for Canada / Canadians to keep a sceptical eye on the USA and work towards building a stronger more independent Canada. We need to diversify our trade partners. China has just now overtaken the USA as the largest consumer of the world.

[caesar]

QUOTE 

Canadians arrogantly put their flags on their backpacks as they travel the world to tell everyone "I'm not American". 

I can assure you, IMR, that that is not the only reason people put the Canadian flag on their backpacks.

Nor are all those showing the Canadian flag all Canadians; many are Americans.

[Black Dog]

I strongly believe Canadians hate Americans.

Yeah, that's why we reject all things American. Canadians don't watch American TV or movies, burn American books and refuse to shop at American franchises like Starbucks and McDonald's. We certainly wouldn't dream of doing business with them either. In fact, most Canadian exports are actually dumped into the ocean so as not to fall into American hands. American tourists are harrassed and occassionally "dissapeared" into forced labour camps in the Yukon where they toil night and day in secret sweatshops making Roots paraphanalia.

This hatred has manifested itself throughout history, starting with our refusal to allow Loyalists to enter Canada after the American revolution, as they were deemed "too American" for our tastes. Later, we started an "aboveground railroad" to ship escaped slaves back to servitude in the States. And who can forget the period during the '60s whern Canada shipped U.S. war resitsors directly to North Vietnamese prison camps. Oh, and I nearly forgot about when Canada sent CF-18s up to shoot down American jetliners over Newfoundland after 9-11. A fine day for anti-Americanism that was!

Yes, we hate Americans: their humility, their open-mindedness, their willingness to accept other cultures, their total lack of patriotism, their peacenik ways, and their cultural sophistication. We envy their European style social programs, their small but efficient military, their highbrow political discourse and their articulate and intelligent political leadership.

[Grantler]

LOL.

Ok Ok.

Now this is what I call a good post.

Maybe normal Canadians don't hate Americans...but let me reiterate...a large percentage of students do.

Maybe its just a phase. Or, maybe even better, it is an attempt by profs to pull the youth to the left in Canada.

[Black Dog]

Maybe normal Canadians don't hate Americans...but let me reiterate...a large percentage of students do.

How does one define "hate" in this instance? Hell, how do you even define "ant-iAmericanism"? Is it bigger than a bread box?

Americans certainly have cultural traits I either don't understand or outright disdain. I certainly question the intelligence of at least 60,608,582 American citizens and I'm not sure about the rest sometimes. But I've met plenty of Americans, am related to quite a few and find them, as individuals, much like us.

Sometimes it's difficult to seperate individuals from the whole. Many Canadians don't like the U.S.'s political leadership, policies etc., but it's a stretch to say that anyone "hates Americans".

[Grantler]

Ok, well, for example I will take my American warfare class.

The Prof has came out in class stating that the American public are just as idiotic as their president. And you can take that as a quote.

She believes that the nation is rediculous and people are idiotic due to the fact that almost every household put up a yellow ribbon when the War in Iraq began to signify support for the troops.

95% of the classroom agreed that Americans are rediculous imperialists and this is when talking about the people.

I was sickened.

Anyhow, this may be a problem since it was a confined group but still, I would tend to view this as Anti-American and this is why I made the post (And just for clarification I didn't mean our in the description...meant OUT).

Disliking Americans for supporting troops that are just doign their job is a little severe. They have no choice.

[Black Dog]

95% of the classroom agreed that Americans are rediculous imperialists and this is when talking about the people.

Do you dispute that there is a tendancy for Americans to rally around their political institutions and military during times of crisis and uncertainty? How many times have you heard the sentiment that one cannot question the president (hell, I remember Dan "Liberal media" Rather himself standing up after 9-11 and peratically swearing an oath of fealty to George Dubya on national TV.)

Canadians seem to have a greater distrust of their political isntitutions. Yeah we vote Liberal, but grudgingly. We like griping about politicians. And when it comes to the military, we're proud of what our soldiers do, but don't understand America's fetish-like adulation for all things military (I personally think it reeks of fascism).

Disliking Americans for supporting troops that are just doign their job is a little severe. They have no choice.

Just to clarify: who has no choice?

If its the troops you'r etalking about, they do have a choice: don't join up.

If it's th epublic, well, a democracy (which, I'm told the U.S. considers itself) is suppossed to tolerate a range of views and not mandate on specific one. I (andI'm certain many Canadians too) find the idea of unquestioned support for anything (especially the military) very, very creepy.

[I miss Reagan]

I can assure you, IMR, that that is not the only reason people put the Canadian flag on their backpacks.

Hi Newf,

I think it is the main reason, and the other reasons are tied to it. Canadians really believe that people in the world will not treat them well if they are percieved as American. (The odd self-hating American buys into this as well).

Give the Parrish thing a rest.

Ya sorry Newf, I know we've been through it before, but she's a good example of how many people think in this country. People rallied around her after she made those comments. She had to stomp on an replica of the US President before she was actually punished. Even then PM could barely bring himself to fire her. This pervasive anti-Americanism is why the Yank-bashing beer ads are so wildly popular (eg. Joe Canada touring the country). Canadians look for any excuse to rip on Americans. We're taught to do it by our media and from elementary school to university.

It’s not just overreaction or Yankee imagination. Anti-Americanism is not only alive and well, it’s spoon fed in Canada.

And it stems from a taxpayer paid source: the classroom.

The Three `Rs, Canada style, have been teaching school children as young as grade school an image of Americans as dishonourable, churlish and even bullying. This less than admirable image emerges in a study, presented this week to the Congress of the Humanities and Social Sciences, hosted by the University of Manitoba.

It used to more of a relationship like those of Australia-New Zealand or Austria-Germany. Natural resentment towards the larger, dominant country. But I think it's evolved into a more serious hatred among many Canadians. Many of them hide behind the mantra of "I don't hate Americans I just hate their Government" etc.

It is partly about anti-war sentiment, which reportedly runs deep in Canada, and partly about the perception of George W. Bush as a cowboy, says Lian MacDonald, former head of public affairs at the Canadian Embassy in Washington.

"But it's largely about America's wealth and power. And in that sense, anti-Americanism is as pernicious as anti-Semitism, rooted in envy rather than grievance," MacDonald writes in MacLean's, Canada's weekly news magazine.

The developing new anti-Americanism in Canada is similar to that which has developed in Europe...

This psychic illness is founded on Canada’s desperate desire to be “different” than the Americans -- a result of Canada being built on the “counter-revolution.” When the British colonies revolted against their masters in 1776, Canadians became the first anti-Americans. Canada is based on anti-Americanism. Without anti-Americanism -- as one author has quipped -- Canada would cease to exist.

[I miss Reagan]

QUOTE 

95% of the classroom agreed that Americans are rediculous imperialists and this is when talking about the people.

Do you dispute that there is a tendancy for Americans to rally around their political institutions and military during times of crisis and uncertainty?

Be warned Grantler, he's quite crafty at deflecting the question and cavilling about the issue.

[Grantler]

1. Do you dispute that there is a tendancy for Americans to rally around their political institutions and military during times of crisis and uncertainty? How many times have you heard the sentiment that one cannot question the president (hell, I remember Dan "Liberal media" Rather himself standing up after 9-11 and peratically swearing an oath of fealty to George Dubya on national TV.)

Canadians seem to have a greater distrust of their political isntitutions. Yeah we vote Liberal, but grudgingly. We like griping about politicians. And when it comes to the military, we're proud of what our soldiers do, but don't understand America's fetish-like adulation for all things military (I personally think it reeks of fascism).

2. Just to clarify: who has no choice?

If its the troops you'r etalking about, they do have a choice: don't join up.

If it's th epublic, well, a democracy (which, I'm told the U.S. considers itself) is suppossed to tolerate a range of views and not mandate on specific one. I (andI'm certain many Canadians too)  find the idea of unquestioned support for anything (especially the military) very, very creepy.

1. If the President of the United States and Congress sends troops to a country I think that the population should support the soldiers (not the military or decision). What is the point in not doing it? Would you like these soldiers to come home to be spit on like they were after Vietnam? Like my God, this is my point exactly...anti-American sentiment....stemming out of your ignorance for #2.

2. First of all, who is talking about the military? The American population is not giving a blank check by supporting their troops. They support their troops to do the job that Congress has asked them to do. This fact is irreversible. How does it help anyone to criticize the job of the soldier especially since...AND THIS IS IMPORTANT...joining the military is not a conscious decision in many cases for Americans!

Please understand the reality of the American military. Americans on mass apply to the military to escape their economic situation. They are trying to further their lives and the military is the way to do it....get training in a field for example. Ask people in the US military and this is what you come up with...using the institution to further their horizons. Would you rather they live in a state lower than if they joined the military. I think that is a very selfish thing for you to suggest seeing you are lucky enough, it seems, to not have to join the military in order to get training or education in a field that could increase your way of life.

Just because an individual joins the military does it mean that they should lose their standing as a human being and their life is no longer worth regarding as normal and in need of support from family and friends etc.

[Black Dog]

I'm sure there's serious examinations on the state of Canda-US relations available. You'll not find them in the pages of FrontPage. But if it's faulty logic and straw men aplenty, Horowitz's rag is for you!

[Grantler]

Good reply.

[Black Dog]

(Note: Previous post was in response to IMR's latest load of fertilizer. Grantler posted while I was editing)

If the President of the United States and Congress sends troops to a country I think that the population should support the soldiers (not the military or decision). What is the point in not doing it? Would you like these soldiers to come home to be spit on like they were after Vietnam? Like my God, this is my point exactly...anti-American sentiment....stemming out of your ignorance for #2.

First: American soldiers weren't spit on after Vietnam. That's an urban myth.

Second: "support the soldiers" means different things. I know Americans who oppose the Iraq war, but support the troops by wanting to bring them home. Others interpret "supporting the tropps" as meaning you are not allowed to criticize the war or the way it is conducted. Others are content to slap a yellow ribbon bumper sticker on their car and forget the whole thing.

Basically, "support the troops" is far too generic and broad a term to mean anything.

First of all, who is talking about the military? The American population is not giving a blank check by supporting their troops. They support their troops to do the job that Congress has asked them to do. This fact is irreversible.

Okay, but where do you draw the line? I just read an article about the widespread killing of civilians by U.S. trops in Fallujah. Does one "support their troops to do the job that Congress has asked them to do" by turning a blind eye to such events? Or does one say "Waitaminute! I can't support that or the people who did it." In other words, can one truly seperate the people from the "job"?

How does it help anyone to criticize the job of the soldier especially since...AND THIS IS IMPORTANT...joining the military is not a conscious decision in many cases for Americans!

How is it an unconcious decision to walk into a recruiting office, sign some forms, then undergo months of training etc etc.? I don't think anyone is waking up in a Humveee in baghdad saying "Wait: wasn't I just at the Orange Julius in Topeka? What the hell happened?"

Please understand the reality of the American military. Americans on mass apply to the military to escape their economic situation. They are trying to further their lives and the military is the way to do it....get training in a field for example. Ask people in the US military and this is what you come up with...using the institution to further their horizons.

Yeah, the U.S. military recruits a disproportinate number of poor people. Many people join just to make a living. Fine. But it's possible to look at that situation and acknowledge that its f**ked up but still cast a critical eye at individuals. I'm not gonna give Chuck Graner a pass for being a backwoods hillbilly, nor am I going to excuse the sniper who blows a 5 year old kids brains out just because he'd rathe rbe in technical school. The choice to committ acts of inhumanity ultimately rests with the individual and individuals that make such choices don't derserve our unconditional support.

[Grantler]

This is much better, give me some time to read this later. I am in transit shortly for home. IT IS READING WEEK!!! A great Canadian time of year.

[I miss Reagan]

First: American soldiers weren't spit on after Vietnam

This is a total lie. I have a good friend who served in Vietnam as a Greenberet. Upon returning from Vietnam and walking off the plane as a wounded soldier an anti-war protestor spit in his face.

Ya and don't read Front Page, read Slate instead . Don't read Horowitz read Chomsky instead .

[Black Dog]

This is a total lie. I have a good friend who served in Vietnam as a Greenberet. Upon returning from Vietnam and walking off the plane as a wounded soldier an anti-war protestor spit in his face.

While Lembcke doesn't prove that nobody ever expectorated on a serviceman--you can't prove a negative, after all--he reduces the claim to an urban myth. In most urban myths, the details morph slightly from telling to telling, but at least one element survives unchanged. In the tale of the spitting protester, the signature element is the location: The protester almost always ambushes the serviceman at the airport--not in a park, or at a bar, or on Main Street. Also, it's not uncommon for the insulted serviceman to have flown directly in from Vietnam. In the most dramatic telling of the spitting story, First Blood (1982), the first installment of the series about a vengeful Vietnam vet, the airport is the scene of the outrage

Ya and don't read Front Page, read Slate instead . Don't read Horowitz read Chomsky instead.

I think that's the first smart thing you've ever said.

[I miss Reagan]

Ya pretty funny huh? What's your point. It happened. I heard it first hand. Nice attempt to spin it into an urban legend.

[Black Dog]

Ya pretty funny huh? What's your point.  It happened.  I heard it first hand.  Nice attempt to spin it into an urban legend.

Actually, yeah, it is pretty funny given how closely your "firsthand" account follows the script.

As for my point: you have no way to prove that such a thing did happened to your "friend". What, we're just supposed to take your word for it?

(Of course there's always the possibility that you consider ex-Green Beret and fictional character John Rambo a close personal friend...)

Second: it was not I who rendered this oft-told tale the staus of urban legend: that was Jerry Lembecke.

Lembcke, a professor of sociology at Holy Cross and a Vietnam vet, investigated hundreds of news accounts of antiwar activists spitting on vets. But every time he pushed for more evidence or corroboration from a witness, the story collapsed--the actual person who was spat on turned out to be a friend of a friend. Or somebody's uncle. He writes that he never met anybody who convinced him that any such clash took place.

But I'm sure he wouldn't dare question the credibility of an anonymous poster on an internet chat room. They never lie.