Asylum System "not sustainable" - Immigration Minister

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Generalizing in itself is loaded with fallacies and problems, and you are going beyond generalizing to actual judging. 

Bullshit. There's nothing wrong with generalizing as long as you bear in mind that no generality is 100% true. People who make a fetish of being non-judgemental seem pretty chickenshit to me. They'll look at a shithole like Afghanistan or Pakistan and their ignorant, backward, bigoted cultures and values and simper about how they can't judge. Bullshit, you can't judge. We're not better than they are? Of course we are.

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You don't seem to care if you are wrong, so judge away then judgey...

Of course I care if I'm wrong. Show I"m wrong about one judgement I've made. You can't. What you mean is I don't care if you and others on the Left disagree. You got that right.

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. Didn't this idea come from a political candidate ?

And supported by 89% of the party according to polls, and 65% of Canadians. But every other candidate lined up to condemn her for daring to utter the suggestion, as did every single media organ and every single columnist or commentator in the Canadian national media. And you'll notice she hasn't uttered a peep since then.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Hudson Jones said:

Goddess, you need to chill with the brush strokes and stereotypes. There are so many different types of Muslims. You only show your ignorance by continuously commenting on how Muslims are like this or like that.

It's like someone commenting that all Christians have the same exact thoughts and beliefs.

How many of the 57 Muslim states have gay pride parades? How many have legalized homosexuality? How many treat women and men equally under the law? How many give non-Muslims the same rights as Muslims?

The answer, of course, is none. But hey, it's probably just a coincidence! Because, like, there are many different kinds of Muslims!

[Argus]

del

Edited September 26, 2018 by Argus

[dialamah]

36 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Actually, no.  What matters is the truth.  If you are talking about some members of a specific group then it is perfectly okay to say so.  It's not at all like someone commenting that all Christians have the same exact thoughts and beliefs. It's like someone commenting that some Christians have the same exact thoughts and beliefs.  Some of them do.

Don't you sometimes talk about some Israelis? 

 

If thats what was happening then sure.  But its not.  

If Trump is called out and condemned for saying "Mexicans are murderers and rapists" because it uses the worst examples of Mexicans to define all of them, then why shouldn't anyone else be called out and condemned for doing the same with Muslims?   

[Argus]

8 hours ago, dialamah said:

1.  Generally, Muslims who come to Canada are more conservative in their social attitudes than secular Canadians and even most Christians.

That's an enormous understatement.

8 hours ago, dialamah said:

2.  The longer Muslims are here, the more they accept our more progessive values,

Which is why more and more Muslim women are wearing hijabs, burkas and niquabs, to show how progressive they are.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

If thats what was happening then sure.  But its not.  

If Trump is called out and condemned for saying "Mexicans are murderers and rapists" because it uses the worst examples of Mexicans to define all of them, then why shouldn't anyone else be called out and condemned for doing the same with Muslims?   

They should.  I would definitely ask them to be more specific.

Edit>  If Trump is your yardstick then I don't see much of a problem finding common ground in disparaging certain members of any identifiable group.

Edited September 26, 2018 by bcsapper

[Argus]

I can't help noting none of the Islamophiles has commented on the excerpts Goddess posted about the French school system. Because what's happening in that report is EXACTLY what a lot of Canadians fear could one day happen in Canada.

[dialamah]

Just now, Argus said:

That's an enormous understatement.

Which is why more and more Muslim women are wearing hijabs, burkas and niquabs, to show how progressive they are.

1. More women are wearing hijabs; burka wearing has remained constant according to the survey you posted some time back.

2. As public sentiment against Muslims imcreases, driven by the kind of rhetoric you and Goddess and DoP like to push, hijab wearing increases.  

3.  When bans against face coverings are implemented, sales of niqabs go up.

I have posted links to all of this.  I suppose if you and Goddess were the least interested in reducing niqab or hijab wearing, you'd jump at the chance to learn more or at least consider that information in your worldview.  

Also, other research suggests that its the young men of the second generation of the more progressive immigrant Muslims who are more likely to become radicalized, along with new converts.  They know less about the religion generally and are more easily swayed to the DoP version of Islam.  The ones raised by more devout Muslims know that murder is frowned upon, that jihad is not a physical fight but a spiritual one.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Also, other research suggests that its the young men of the second generation of the more progressive immigrant Muslims who are more likely to become radicalized, along with new converts. 

Anecdotal evidence from my family and friends in the UK certainly supports this notion.

Edited September 26, 2018 by bcsapper
Young men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction - Not Quite Blaise Pascal

[dialamah]

14 minutes ago, Argus said:

I can't help noting none of the Islamophiles has commented on the excerpts Goddess posted about the French school system. Because what's happening in that report is EXACTLY what a lot of Canadians fear could one day happen in Canada.

Islamophile is incorrect in my case.  I don't love Islam; what I love is Canadian culture, which doesn't accept dehumanizing rhetoric directed towards specific groups.

[dialamah]

40 minutes ago, Argus said:

How many of the 57 Muslim states have gay pride parades? How many have legalized homosexuality? How many treat women and men equally under the law? How many give non-Muslims the same rights as Muslims?

The answer, of course, is none. But hey, it's probably just a coincidence! Because, like, there are many different kinds of Muslims!

Strawman argument.  Nobody has ever claimed that Muslim countries are gay friendly or that there aren't serious human rights issues in Muslim countries.  But that's also true for plenty of other countries, including Christian majority countries and secular countries, so the notion that Islam is somehow special in creating these kinds of countries isn't supportable.  If these kinds human rights issues only existed in Muslim majority countries, then you'd have a case that its because of Islam

It can certainly be said that Islam supports those kinds of beliefs, just as other religions do when in the right hands, so to speak.  

Edited September 26, 2018 by dialamah

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Strawman argument.  Novody has ever claimed that Muslim countries are gay friendly or that there aren't serious human rights issues in Muslim countries.  But that's also true for plenty of other countries, including Christian majority countries and secular countries, so the notion that Islam is somehow special in creating these kinds of countries isn't supportable.  If these kinds human rights issues only existed in Muslim majority countries, then you'd have a case that its because of Islam

It can certainly be said that Islam supports those kinds of beliefs, just as other religions do.  

I would say that the human rights issues in countries where the law is based on religion are due to the religion, and the human rights issues in countries where the culture is influenced by religion are due to the religion.

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by bcsapper
Time for bed said Zebedee

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

I would say that the human right issues in countries where the law is based on religion are due to the religion, and the human rights issues in countries where the culture is influenced by religion are based on the religion.

 

That's simplistic, imo. 

[Guest]

Just now, dialamah said:

That's simplistic, imo. 

You could complicate it up if you want.  Let me know what percentages you come up with.  I'd like to know how many people are charged with blasphemy in Pakistan for insulting me.

[Argus]

21 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Strawman argument.  Nobody has ever claimed that Muslim countries are gay friendly or that there aren't serious human rights issues in Muslim countries.  But that's also true for plenty of other countries, including Christian majority countries and secular countries, so the notion that Islam is somehow special in creating these kinds of countries isn't supportable.  If these kinds human rights issues only existed in Muslim majority countries, then you'd have a case that its because of Islam

Okay then. Let's have a list of Christian states where those who are not of the majority religion are treated, under the law and by government order, as inferior to those of the majority religion. 57/57 Muslim states treat non-Muslims as inferior to Muslims in every aspect of law. How many Christian states treat non-Christians as inferior in every aspect of law?

[Argus]

48 minutes ago, dialamah said:

1. More women are wearing hijabs; burka wearing has remained constant according to the survey you posted some time back.

Incorrect. It has doubled.

48 minutes ago, dialamah said:

2. As public sentiment against Muslims imcreases, driven by the kind of rhetoric you and Goddess and DoP like to push, hijab wearing increases.  

There's no evidence of this. In fact, the more accommodation the government shows towards Muslims the more hostile towards the local culture, values and law Muslims seem to become. Governments in France, the UK and elsewhere in Europe have been far more accomodative than we have been in supporting Sharia courts, for example. The opinions of Muslim clerics with regard to education, health care, food provision, welfare services and law towards Muslims is listened to most attentively by government of all levels. It hasn't made Muslims less extreme or less likely to wear hijabs and burkas, but MORE. And perhaps you'd like to comment on the example of the French schools presented on the previous page.

The wearing of hijabs, burkas and niquabs is growing throughout the Muslim world, driven by the rhetoric of Saudi Arabia and it's army of well-paid clerics, not by me and Goddess.

48 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Also, other research suggests that its the young men of the second generation of the more progressive immigrant Muslims who are more likely to become radicalized, along with new converts.  They know less about the religion generally and are more easily swayed to the DoP version of Islam.  The ones raised by more devout Muslims know that murder is frowned upon, that jihad is not a physical fight but a spiritual one.

The ones who came here previously came from a Muslim world which was less doctrinaire than it is now. It wasn't until Saudi Arabia started to rake in massive amounts of cash in the 1970s, after the oil embargo and the quadrupling of oil prices, that they started to put serious money into proselytizing around the world. Year by year they've funded more schools, Islamic cultural centres, more reading material, pamphlets, more paid clerics, to influence local Muslims. The result is that people in those countries today are far more conservative in their religious beliefs than they were thirty or forty years ago. And their children are, as well. You can say they know less of Islam, but there's very little ISIS is doing which the Saudis aren't doing too, and which isn't according to the life and teachings of Muhammed.

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

You could complicate it up if you want.  Let me know what percentages you come up with.  I'd like to know how many people are charged with blasphemy in Pakistan for insulting me.

Fair point.  I have ideas on that too, but I work early and hard so I am much too tired to articulate now.  Some day maybe.  Have a good night.

[dialamah]

50 minutes ago, Argus said:

Okay then. Let's have a list of Christian states where those who are not of the majority religion are treated, under the law and by government order, as inferior to those of the majority religion. 57/57 Muslim states treat non-Muslims as inferior to Muslims in every aspect of law. How many Christian states treat non-Christians as inferior in every aspect of law?

Still a strawman.  

Anyway, it doesn't matter, neither of us are going to change our viewpoints short of some really compelling information.   Only time will tell if they'll take over the West and start removing limbs as you fear, oppressing women as Goddess fears, or if they'll simply fade into Western culture in the same way all the other feared immigrant groups have done, which is what I expect.

Have a good night, perchance you'll dream of eliminating all the extreme leftists who are letting in the barbarians.

[DogOnPorch]

17 hours ago, dialamah said:

 

Or how about some of DoPs proclamations that unless a Muslim is actively a violent Jihadist or planning to be, they are not a "real Muslim".  Or that Muslims lie to mislead us and so any Muslim who espouses progressive values is lying.  Have you shown her any of those posts?

 

You're free to lie to us all by claiming the Quran doesn't say what I post.

 

[Goddess]

13 hours ago, dialamah said:

 

Anyway, it doesn't matter, neither of us are going to change our viewpoints short of some really compelling information.   Only time will tell if they'll take over the West and start removing limbs as you fear, oppressing women as Goddess fears, or if they'll simply fade into Western culture in the same way all the other feared immigrant groups have done, which is what I expect.

 

But every bit of compelling information is dismissed with "Nothing to see here.  Move along, you bunch of Islamophobes."

Every country in Europe that has taken in large amounts of Islamics has seen an upsurge in gay-bashing, antisemitic attacks and a downgrading in the circumstances of women.  This should concern us.

The situation is so bad in France that in 2004:

And this is just one country.  The others report the same.  Amsterdam used to be one of the most tolerant, accommodating cities, but it is not that any longer.  Gay-bashing is now rampant.

I see the same thing happening now as what happened in Germany.  Today, it is the gay community, the Jewish community and women who suffer under Muslims.  Tomorrow it may be you, because your response to this information will be "Fake news, there's nothing to see here, antisemitism has always been around, not all Muslims do this."  The problem is that enough of them ARE doing it,  with the encouragement and/or the tacit approval of their communities, that it is changing the face of these countries.    And not in a good way.  Yes, not ALL the Muslims are doing these things.  That much is obvious, or the situation would be much much worse. And it will continue to get worse until we all start facing up to some unpleasant truths. 

 I think this needs to be discussed.  Reformer Muslims think it should be discussed.  The only ones who don't want this discussed are apologists and politicians.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Goddess

[Goddess]

17 hours ago, Argus said:

What is "Nat Daily'?

That's a typo.  It's Nas Daily.  He does happy, positive little videos about all the countries he travels to,  He's a Muslim, but a secular one.  You can probably youtube his videos.

[Centerpiece]

13 hours ago, dialamah said:

Still a strawman.  

Anyway, it doesn't matter, neither of us are going to change our viewpoints short of some really compelling information.   Only time will tell if they'll take over the West and start removing limbs as you fear, oppressing women as Goddess fears, or if they'll simply fade into Western culture in the same way all the other feared immigrant groups have done, which is what I expect.

Have a good night, perchance you'll dream of eliminating all the extreme leftists who are letting in the barbarians.

Just to follow up and support Goddess's article - here is very recent article from our own CBC about the continued violence against Jews across Europe - and specifically in the two largest countries - France and Germany. Thinking that this could never happen in Canada is nothing short of foolish. Here's a quote - but the entire article is worth reading....

Quote

There are crimes other than murder. According to police statistics cited in the manifesto, French Jews are 25 times more likely to suffer attacks than Muslims in France, despite the fact that the Muslim population is 10 times larger.

One result, according to a study by the CRIF, the Representative Council of Jewish Institutions in France, is that, in the Paris region, several thousand Jews have moved away in the past three years out of fear, fear born of direct assaults or bullying of children in schools.

 

Link: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/europe-anti-semitism-don-murray-analysis-1.4644885

Edited September 26, 2018 by Centerpiece

[Goddess]

18 minutes ago, Centerpiece said:

Just to follow up and support Goddess's article - here is very recent article from our own CBC about the continued violence against Jews across Europe - and specifically in the two largest countries - France and Germany. Thinking that this could never happen in Canada is nothing short of foolish. Here's a quote - but the entire article is worth reading....

Link: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/europe-anti-semitism-don-murray-analysis-1.4644885

One of the things Mr. Bawer talks about in his book is the passivity of bystanders to the violent attacks taking place:

I saw exactly the same thing here in Canada one time.  On a facebook page for the town I was living in, a large group of Muslims eventually took it right over.  We could see it happening gradually until someone posted a news item about Gaza.  In the comments, an Israeli girl talked about how much she worried for her family still living there and the Muslim backlash was shocking and frightening.  They all ganged up on her online, telling her that her family deserved to die, that she needed to be killed, bloody descriptions of how she should be killed.  A few of us tried to stick up for her, and after that, the owner of the page abandoned it to the Muslims who promptly blocked any of us who publicly stood up for her or posted anything about terrorist activities around the world.  (not a great loss, lol)

You can call me paranoid, you can call me an Islamophobe, but I'm not one to sit by and watch what's going on, say and do nothing or completely deny it's happening.  We need to start asking ourselves, as individuals, what we are going to do if we don't start paying attention to this issue.  We need to start talking about how far we're going to let this go on, instead of burying our heads in the sands of political correctness.  The German people denied that Jews were being burned in the ovens, even as the ashes fell on their yards and cars.

[Argus]

14 hours ago, dialamah said:

Still a strawman.  

How so? You did your usual "Well yes, Muslim countries have problems BUT SO DO CHRISTIANS!!!" routine. And then said " the notion that Islam is somehow special in creating these kinds of countries isn't supportable."

I just pointed out a unique feature of 57 Muslim countries which shows your claim to be completely false. And you have no response.

[Argus]

51 minutes ago, Goddess said:

 saw exactly the same thing here in Canada one time.  On a facebook page for the town I was living in, a large group of Muslims eventually took it right over.  We could see it happening gradually until someone posted a news item about Gaza.  In the comments, an Israeli girl talked about how much she worried for her family still living there and the Muslim backlash was shocking and frightening.  They all ganged up on her online, telling her that her family deserved to die, that she needed to be killed, bloody descriptions of how she should be killed.  A few of us tried to stick up for her, and after that, the owner of the page abandoned it to the Muslims who promptly blocked any of us who publicly stood up for her or posted anything about terrorist activities around the world.  (not a great loss, lol

No, no. That's simply not possible. Don't you understand that Muslims in Canada are completely different from Muslims in Europe or Asia or the Middle East? They're all tolerant and loving and feminist and love to engage in interfaith dialogue! The moment they step off the plane they start feeling like they need to wear sandals and recycle their newspapers. And they love Jews! Really! Just ask Dialamah!