Ford eviscerates local GTA politics

[betsy]

Just now, turningrite said:

It's absolutely relevant. Obviously you're not a Torontonian and have no skin in the game. You've been exposed as a poseur on this so you should focus on your own neck of the woods. By the way, how many constituents does each local councillor serve in your town or city and how many constituents does your Ontario MPP serve? Just wondering.

I'm expressing my opinion.  Don't read it  if you don't want it.......but, don't tell me I can't give my two cent!

[turningrite]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

I'm not sure how reliable such polling is in the midst of the thing, given how many public voices were shrilly decrying the 'attack on democracy' and running around shrieking like it was the end of democratic government as we know it.

Such behavior was certainly practiced by a small faction. But the more important reality was the divergence on two separate issues, the first being the reduction in council size, which was favored by a relatively small majority and the second being the use of the notwithstanding clause, which was favored by a large majority. One can have divergent opinions on these two issues and still be credited for being consistent.

[turningrite]

2 minutes ago, betsy said:

I'm expressing my opinion.  Don't read it  if you don't want it.......but, don't tell me I can't give my two cent!

You're entitled to your opinion but I think the opinions of those actually affected here, Toronto residents and ratepayers, are far more relevant. By the way, do you live in Ontario and if so where?

[betsy]

1 minute ago, turningrite said:

You're entitled to your opinion but I think the opinions of those actually affected here, Toronto residents and ratepayers, are far more relevant. By the way, do you live in Ontario and if so where?

I disagree.  Any informed opinion, is relevant.  Where I live is, irrelevant.

[turningrite]

5 minutes ago, betsy said:

I disagree.  Any informed opinion, is relevant.  Where I live is, irrelevant.

So, my guess is that you're not an Ontarian either. It just keeps getting better and better. Do you live in Canada?

[betsy]

2 hours ago, turningrite said:

So, my guess is that you're not an Ontarian either. It just keeps getting better and better. Do you live in Canada?

I'm an Ontarian.  But, that's irrelevant.

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, Argus said:

Probably. She was seen as more on the progressive side of the progressive conservatives. 

So she's a leftist then ?

[turningrite]

7 hours ago, betsy said:

I'm an Ontarian.  But, that's irrelevant.

Thanks for clarifying this. So, now you can answer my previous questions: How many people live in the town or city in which you live and how many councillors serve these constituents? And how many people live in the provincial riding in which you live?

[betsy]

5 hours ago, turningrite said:

Thanks for clarifying this. So, now you can answer my previous questions: How many people live in the town or city in which you live and how many councillors serve these constituents? And how many people live in the provincial riding in which you live?

I don't care how you do your assessment.   I didn't vote for you to be the Premier of Ontario - nor do I think you even ran for that position!

 

As you'd  said, ONTARIO IS BROKE!  Lol, I already suspected that even before he came to power!

Typical - we're all for getting rid of the deficits and climbing out of the hole - but only, if we're not affected in any way! 

He's gotta start somewhere!  He can't afford to please everyone, he's got to be firm if he wants to achieve his goal - which is getting rid of the deficit! 

So, Toronto council cut it is!  You don't like it, you don't agree  - too bad - vote him out next time.

 

Streamlining the government and saving through efficiency, are  among the reasons I voted for Ford!  Even if he touches and streamline the city where I am - I'm okay with that.  I want him to do what he promised!   I want to see the deficit down, or gone!  That's what happens when you're broke - and you want to get out of being broke!  You tighten up your belt!  Unless, you can come up and produce a money tree - then, we're all laughing!

Maybe you do, but I don't want more of the same - like, the Liberals playing shell-game with our money! 

 

And, this isn't about me!

I gather you didn't vote for him.  Well, I did! 

Enough said!

 

Edited September 22, 2018 by betsy

[OftenWrong]

On 9/20/2018 at 10:17 PM, Michael Hardner said:

?  He just WON.  This is the honeymoon period... he has shat himself in his first month in office.  Rob Ford at least had political smarts...

I say you're both wrong. I'll wager much of the province approves. Most non-politicos don't even get what the fuss is all about with the not withstanding clause, but they see he got want he wanted pushed through. Some conservatives feel that the judge's decision was unreasonable, and possibly phoney judgement imposed for 100% political reasons. It was an insult to the concept of political impartiality in the courts. Hence, Ford is a hero.

Edited September 22, 2018 by OftenWrong

[turningrite]

5 hours ago, betsy said:

I don't care how you do your assessment.   I didn't vote for you to be the Premier of Ontario - nor do I think you even ran for that position!

And, this isn't about me!

I gather you didn't vote for him.  Well, I did! 

Enough said!

 

What a rant! Obviously, you don't care to answer my very relevant questions. In any case, you have made this about you (i.e. repeated use of the words 'I' and 'me' suggests that you think this is all about you). The real issue here is that the matter on which you're pontificating, the size and cost of Toronto's city council, has absolutely no real impact on you. It's not your tax dollars that are on the table here. So you voted for Ford. So what? I don't give a toss and if you're not prepared to compare apples with apples rather than oranges and inform me how of the number of constituents each councillor serves in your municipal ward in whatever city, town or hamlet you live, your contributions here are mainly irrelevant.

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

I say you're both wrong. I'll wager much of the province approves.

No - the poll came out and I was quite surprised that Ford was over 50% disapproval on this issue over all of Ontario.  Why he took a political risk on such an unimportant topic (that didn't really come up in the campaign) is anyone's guess.  That's why I say he shat himself.  Taking a risk over nothing is just stupid...

[OftenWrong]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

No - the poll came out and I was quite surprised that Ford was over 50% disapproval on this issue over all of Ontario.  Why he took a political risk on such an unimportant topic (that didn't really come up in the campaign) is anyone's guess.  That's why I say he shat himself.  Taking a risk over nothing is just stupid...

Sorry, but without knowing the particulars, or what the actual question was, I cannot favour or dispute any poll.

[betsy]

5 hours ago, turningrite said:

What a rant! Obviously, you don't care to answer my very relevant questions. In any case, you have made this about you (i.e. repeated use of the words 'I' and 'me' suggests that you think this is all about you). The real issue here is that the matter on which you're pontificating, the size and cost of Toronto's city council, has absolutely no real impact on you. It's not your tax dollars that are on the table here. So you voted for Ford. So what? I don't give a toss and if you're not prepared to compare apples with apples rather than oranges and inform me how of the number of constituents each councillor serves in your municipal ward in whatever city, town or hamlet you live, your contributions here are mainly irrelevant.

I did answer your question.   Read it again.

[turningrite]

6 hours ago, betsy said:

I did answer your question.   Read it again.

Where? I asked you how many people live in your city, town or hamlet and how many councillors serve your community. And I asked you how many people live in your provincial riding.The only response I can see is your petulant and rude retort that you "don't care" how I assess this matter. (But you're apparently quite willing to cast judgement on others, suggesting hypocrisy on your part.) I want to figure out how politically overserviced you are and how many tax dollars people in your neck of the woods are needlessly soaking up. Please copy and paste the relevant information if you have provided it elsewhere or simply provide it if you have not already done so.

Edited September 23, 2018 by turningrite

[OftenWrong]

On 9/22/2018 at 12:46 PM, Michael Hardner said:

No - the poll came out and I was quite surprised that Ford was over 50% disapproval

Seems many still approve of Ford, even if that poll were true. Attendance of thousands of his admirers at his "Ford Fest" is a poll in itself.

The electricity around this premier at his annual event was off-the-charts huge. Thousands upon thousands piled into the Veneto Centre, at 7465 Kipling Ave. in Woodbridge, to not just hear the premier speak, but just to get a look at him — get a picture or a selfie.

WARMINGTON: Ford Fest turns into Fordstock

[Michael Hardner]

36 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Seems many still approve of Ford, even if that poll were true. Attendance of thousands of his admirers at his "Ford Fest" is a poll in itself.

It's about percentages.  Let's see how he does with the economy.  If he can manage that he'll be well rewarded.

[betsy]

On 9/22/2018 at 11:16 PM, turningrite said:

Where? I asked you how many people live in your city, town or hamlet and how many councillors serve your community. And I asked you how many people live in your provincial riding.

Read my response!  That's my answer to your irrelevant question!  You don't like his method of streamlining - well, I do! 

 

 

Quote

The only response I can see is your petulant and rude retort that you "don't care" how I assess this matter. (But you're apparently quite willing to cast judgement on others, suggesting hypocrisy on your part.) I want to figure out how politically overserviced you are and how many tax dollars people in your neck of the woods are needlessly soaking up. Please copy and paste the relevant information if you have provided it elsewhere or simply provide it if you have not already done so.

You're missing the logic here.  Everything is explained in my last post to you.   You're the one being petulant.  

I don't have any obligation to debate with your irrelevant - and illogical - views.   Plus, you're now resorting to personal attacks - which is typical to people like you.

 

You didn't vote for him - I did! 

Edited September 24, 2018 by betsy

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, betsy said:

You're missing the logic here.

He's missing the point too, it's not a linear relationship vs. population. There is a bare minimum number of councillors needed, below which you cannot run a small town.
 

[turningrite]

9 hours ago, betsy said:

Read my response!  That's my answer to your irrelevant question!  You don't like his method of streamlining - well, I do! 

 

 

You're missing the logic here.  Everything is explained in my last post to you.   You're the one being petulant.  

I don't have any obligation to debate with your irrelevant - and illogical - views.   Plus, you're now resorting to personal attacks - which is typical to people like you.

 

You didn't vote for him - I did! 

No, I'm just saying you're behaving like a meddling hypocrite if you think you have the right to pontificate about Toronto's civic politics when you won't subject the politics in your own little hamlet to similar scrutiny. You haven't provided any numbers to facilitate a comparison. The size of the municipality in which you live is irrelevant to whether you have a supposed right to better representation, as you and OftenWrong (who is wrong about this) believe to be the case. Unless you're willing to subject your critique to objective comparison and scrutiny, I hereby politely but firmly beseech you to butt out.

By your "typical to people like you" comment, I take it you mean educated and informed people, right? By the way, I believe 'typical of' rather than 'typical to' is proper grammatical usage. I don't usually like to be too picky about such things in online forums, but if your intent is to insult you might seem more credible if you do so using proper grammar. 

[Rue]

On 9/24/2018 at 3:10 PM, turningrite said:

No, I'm just saying you're behaving like a meddling hypocrite if you think you have the right to pontificate about Toronto's civic politics when you won't subject the politics in your own little hamlet to similar scrutiny. You haven't provided any numbers to facilitate a comparison. The size of the municipality in which you live is irrelevant to whether you have a supposed right to better representation, as you and OftenWrong (who is wrong about this) believe to be the case. Unless you're willing to subject your critique to objective comparison and scrutiny, I hereby politely but firmly beseech you to butt out.

By your "typical to people like you" comment, I take it you mean educated and informed people, right? By the way, I believe 'typical of' rather than 'typical to' is proper grammatical usage. I don't usually like to be too picky about such things in online forums, but if your intent is to insult you might seem more credible if you do so using proper grammar. 

With due respect you are wrong. The size of Toronto's government is the business of any Ontarian because it's municipal government requires funding from the province of Ontario which gets its money from the taxes it collects from all Ontarians and includes money refocused on Toronto that might otherwise be spent in other cities in Ontario.

What goes on in Toronto has an impact on all of Ontario. For that matter it impacts on the size of governments at all levels in Canada.

Your argument that it should only matter and be spoken of by Toronotonians is lame  avoidance at dealing with an opinion you don't like.

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Rue

[Rue]

On 9/24/2018 at 3:10 PM, turningrite said:

No, I'm just saying you're behaving like a meddling hypocrite if you think you have the right to pontificate about Toronto's civic politics when you won't subject the politics in your own little hamlet to similar scrutiny. You haven't provided any numbers to facilitate a comparison. The size of the municipality in which you live is irrelevant to whether you have a supposed right to better representation, as you and OftenWrong (who is wrong about this) believe to be the case. Unless you're willing to subject your critique to objective comparison and scrutiny, I hereby politely but firmly beseech you to butt out.

By your "typical to people like you" comment, I take it you mean educated and informed people, right? By the way, I believe 'typical of' rather than 'typical to' is proper grammatical usage. I don't usually like to be too picky about such things in online forums, but if your intent is to insult you might seem more credible if you do so using proper grammar. 

I think by people like you she means intolerant holier then thou elitists who think any opinion but their own are allowed.

 

[Rue]

On 9/22/2018 at 11:16 PM, turningrite said:

Where? I asked you how many people live in your city, town or hamlet and how many councillors serve your community. And I asked you how many people live in your provincial riding.The only response I can see is your petulant and rude retort that you "don't care" how I assess this matter. (But you're apparently quite willing to cast judgement on others, suggesting hypocrisy on your part.) I want to figure out how politically overserviced you are and how many tax dollars people in your neck of the woods are needlessly soaking up. Please copy and paste the relevant information if you have provided it elsewhere or simply provide it if you have not already done so.

With due respect the issue is how many reps does a city need. I have not seen a definitive formula for how many is too little or too much. What we all know is some things that are large are not necessarily automatically better than their smaller counterparts. When it comes to what size is the best fit I think we need to consult further with an expert and understand size is a subjective perception.

That said might I respectfully suggest I now quit while I am ahead. I can feel more Freudian puns coming.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Rue

[turningrite]

13 hours ago, Rue said:

I think by people like you she means intolerant holier then thou elitists who think any opinion but their own are allowed.

 

Apparently, you don't read my posts. I'm non-ideological. I simply can't tolerate hypocrisy like that expressed by those who say they supposedly want to protect taxpayers when their own taxes, services and access to representation aren't in play. Ford had/has no mandate to chop Toronto's city council. I think it's mainly an ego-driven (i.e. 'I'm now in charge!') personal agenda on DoFo's part. As a Torontonian, I'm unconvinced of the issue of the alleged financial benefits of this. I don't think it will save much if any money. Big money isn't in play at the municipal level in comparison to the other levels of government.

But from a practical perspective, though, having a single city councillor represent every 100 thousand+ residents is ridiculous. At all levels of government in this country, I believe only the federal parliament and the Ontario legislature feature such remote representation. But this is particularly problematic at the municipal level. Imagine trying to talk to your councillor if your street doesn't get cleared after a snowstorm, your garbage isn't getting picked up or condo construction routinely disrupts your sleep by starting work an hour or more prior to stipulated bylaw provisions. These are the kinds of mundane matters municipal councillors regularly have to deal with. And taxpayers have a right to talk to the people who represent them where these things are concerned. I've contacted my MP's office once over the past decade and my MPP's office perhaps once or twice. I've had reason, however, to contact my councillor's office at least half a dozen times over the past couple years. This isn't about ideology or elitism at all. Plainly and simply, it's about access and fairness. I suspect those like Betsy who seem keen to limit access by others to their political representatives would no doubt demand quick access to their own councillors were they unable to access necessary municipal services. However, they seem unconcerned and even in some cases ecstatic that others might lose such access. It's abominable and, yes, hypocritical.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by turningrite

[Centerpiece]

1 hour ago, turningrite said:

But from a practical perspective, though, having a single city councillor represent every 100 thousand+ residents is ridiculous. At all levels of government in this country, I believe only the federal parliament and the Ontario legislature feature such remote representation. But this is particularly problematic at the municipal level. Imagine trying to talk to your councillor if your street doesn't get cleared after a snowstorm, your garbage isn't getting picked up or condo construction routinely disrupts your sleep by starting work an hour or more prior to stipulated bylaw provisions. These are the kinds of mundane matters municipal councillors regularly have to deal with. And taxpayers have a right to talk to the people who represent them where these things are concerned. I've contacted my MP's office once over the past decade and my MPP's office perhaps once or twice. I've had reason, however, to contact my councillor's office at least half a dozen times over the past couple years. This isn't about ideology or elitism at all. Plainly and simply, it's about access and fairness. I suspect those like Betsy who seem keen to limit access by others to their political representatives would no doubt demand quick access to their own councillors were they unable to access necessary municipal services. However, they seem unconcerned and even in some cases ecstatic that others might lose such access. It's abominable and, yes, hypocritical.

 

Perhaps it's time to accept that what's done is done and get on with building a better city. Although the Province can alter the size of council, the City of Toronto Act gives the city full control the council interacts with its constituents. This is where there is a huge opportunity to bring the city closer to its people - and actually improve democracy. As a compelling example, most large American cities have a similar sized council - but they make use of neighbourhood/district committees. These committees are mostly volunteer-based but do have a few nominally paid positions and some office budgets. They are advisory committees and report to the Ward Councillor. Wards are large enough that several have distinct neighbourhoods (Leaside, Unionville, etc) that could benefit from  more focused representation. As I said - this is an example of the opportunity that is now in front of us. Some of the money that Ford has "forced" the city to save could be re-allocated. It wasn't just about saving money - it was about more efficient government.