Trump caves in to EU on trade

[OftenWrong]

Making yourself vulnerable to your adversaries is generally a bad idea. People always scratched their heads in wonder about why we make deals with countries that would make them rich, and make us more poor. Who benefits from that? Not us, I tell you. We are poorer than our parents generation. Not that they were rich, mind you. But back in the day, the Mom stayed home and the Dad went to work. One income, yet they had a car, a house, sometimes even a cottage up north. One income, ok? And Dad was a welder.

 

[Argus]

17 hours ago, Centerpiece said:

I'm not an economist - I just know that business reacts to policy (or non-policy). As I said, I'll watch the stock market. So far, my US based RRSP is doing pretty good.

The stock market reacts to every nonsensical headline. If the EU said something to assuage the mewling babyboy in the White House and thus lessen the chance of more tariffs they're going to react positively. With zero regard as to whether or not the agreement actually meant any future changes.

[Argus]

17 hours ago, Centerpiece said:

Don't forget that you said that.........

Not a problem. Trump makes grandiose offers all the time to make himself look good. But the congress is not about to reduce US tariffs on agriculture, nor the other tariffs the lobbyists have paid them to impose on competition. You think the US would eliminate tariffs on lumber and logs going back and forth between the US and Canada? LOL! Not a chance! Their logging and lumber companies pay too much to politicians for that! 

To Trump's way of thinking, if you do something better than me so that you sell more of it to me than I do to you, then you're cheating. The reverse, of course, is not true. Ever. Even when they are.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Argus

[Argus]

15 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Of course it will be. Short term pain, long term gain? How long? Who knows. But the alternative to keep doing the same thing you are doing now, and hoping for a different, better result is not going to work.

Hmm, what they've been doing has left them with a 3% unemployment rate and a booming economy. They better stop that!!

Let me put this in simple terms. I work at home. I pay someone to cut my grass and shovel my snow. Having them do that lets me concentrate on doing what I do best rather than spending some of my valuable time doing menial work. This is a win for me because I make a lot more per hour than the guys taking care of my yard.

Now If I was Donald Trump I'd look at the money I'm paying to the company which does my maintenance and get angry. I'd feel they were cheating me because while I keep paying them for their services, they're not buying anything from me! And I'd say "Either you start buying my services too or I'm cutting the price of what I pay you! Cheater!"

Of course, that would be brainless. But then, Donald Trump IS brainless.

[Argus]

12 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Making yourself vulnerable to your adversaries is generally a bad idea. People always scratched their heads in wonder about why we make deals with countries that would make them rich, and make us more poor. Who benefits from that? Not us,

Really? Suppose you can build yourself a car for $100,000 but instead buy one from a neighbor for $30,000. Are you losing on the deal?

What if he's cheating? What if it actually costs him $50,000 to build that car and he sells it to you for only $30,000! That bastard! 

Are you poorer because of that?

[Wilber]

12 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Making yourself vulnerable to your adversaries is generally a bad idea. People always scratched their heads in wonder about why we make deals with countries that would make them rich, and make us more poor. Who benefits from that? Not us, I tell you. We are poorer than our parents generation. Not that they were rich, mind you. But back in the day, the Mom stayed home and the Dad went to work. One income, yet they had a car, a house, sometimes even a cottage up north. One income, ok? And Dad was a welder.

 

 

 

I'm not going to get into a generational battle with you. They are pointless. Every generation has its own challenges. The world you describe is gone unfortunately and it won't be coming back. This is no longer the colonial era when western superiority in technology and arms could impose its will on other countries and their economies, nor is it the fifties and sixties when Europe and Asia were digging themselves out from under WW2 and North America had no real competition. Show me a country that has tried to isolate its economy and hasn't had it go very badly.

[bush_cheney2004]

7 minutes ago, Wilber said:

 Show me a country that has tried to isolate its economy and hasn't had it go very badly.

 

See..."Brazil"...9th largest economy in the world.

Edited August 4, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[OftenWrong]

4 hours ago, Wilber said:

I'm not going to get into a generational battle with you. They are pointless.

Not sure what you mean but I don't see this as a battle. And I don't do, or respond to, ad-hominems. If that stuff turns you on, I hear there's another forum for that! 

I see this as more of a cultural battle than a generational one. There are countries around the world who are our allies, and who do well with their economies, who do not have a notorious problem with human rights.

4 hours ago, Wilber said:

The world you describe is gone unfortunately and it won't be coming back. This is no longer the colonial era when western superiority in technology and arms could impose its will on other countries and their economies

The only world I described was one of prosperity. Our trend is going negative, and that is important to a lot of people. The west is still superior in technology and arms, and must be protected to stay that way, because it's only in the west that you can live in relative peace and prosperity, and not be afraid of the government. Only the west is progressive. If you can think of a better, eastern example, please name it.

4 hours ago, Wilber said:

Show me a country that has tried to isolate its economy and hasn't had it go very badly.

Every country has the right to protect their interests. The global economy is not a loving, caring or sharing community. The economic "war" we see today is nothing more than a necessary, but very late correction. I cannot say if it is working yet, only speak in general terms about ideas I agree with in principle.

Here are Trump's tweets today. They suggest that the changes he implemented are having an effect. Some parts I underlined to show he is using tariffs as a means to negotiate better deals.

Tariffs are working far better than anyone ever anticipated. China market has dropped 27% in last 4 months, and they are talking to us. Our market is stronger than ever, and will go up dramatically when these horrible Trade Deals are successfully renegotiated. Tariffs have had a tremendous positive impact on our Steel Industry. Plants are opening all over the U.S., Steelworkers are working again, and big dollars are flowing into our Treasury. Other countries use Tariffs against, but when we use them, foolish people scream! Tariffs will make our country much richer than it is today. Only fools would disagree. We are using them to negotiate fair trade deals and, if countries are still unwilling to negotiate, they will pay us vast sums of money in the form of Tariffs. We win either way. China, which is for the first time doing poorly against us, is spending a fortune on ads and P.R. trying to convince and scare our politicians to fight me on Tariffs- because they are really hurting their economy. Likewise other countries. We are Winning, but must be strong!

ETA- Therefore isolating the economy is not the thing. 

Edited August 4, 2018 by OftenWrong

[Wilber]

Tariffs do not make you more competitive. The metal tariffs may be good for the steel industry in the short term, but they make every other manufacturing industry in the US less competitive and their products more expensive.

[OftenWrong]

Sounds reasonable. I think Donald Trump is like a gambler. He's playing high stakes economic... poker.

[paxamericana]

14 hours ago, Argus said:

Really? Suppose you can build yourself a car for $100,000 but instead buy one from a neighbor for $30,000. Are you losing on the deal?

 

Yes if their end game was to pay for your production line to move overseas. Which is exactly what Made in China 2025 was all about. They want to remove manufacturing, especially the high tech manufacturing away from the US.

Don't forget its not simply about counting numbers, trade also has strategic implication. 

[Wilber]

13 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Sounds reasonable. I think Donald Trump is like a gambler. He's playing high stakes economic... poker.

Yup,  except others bear the consequences.

Whirlpool

[OftenWrong]

That's a pity. Plenty of others have born consequences when the system changed before though. I could probably show specific examples. Some are losing, some are winning. That single example doesn't necessarily prove what's happening in the overall picture.

[Wilber]

56 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

That's a pity. Plenty of others have born consequences when the system changed before though. I could probably show specific examples. Some are losing, some are winning. That single example doesn't necessarily prove what's happening in the overall picture.

It will apply to any manufacturer that uses a lot of metals. Trump puts a tariff on washers but any benefit is more than eaten up by the tariff on metals and the lower sales due to higher prices. You have to question whether he actually has a thought out plan or just throwing crap at the wall. 

Edited August 5, 2018 by Wilber

[CITIZEN_2015]

What the hell is wrong with this Trump guy. He declared support for Iranian people (and sent them to street to face a brutal regime and bullets and jail and torture and rape) and called Iran regime (rightly so) the murderous regime and then back-stabbed them by declaring that he is ready to negotiate with this brutal regime!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What the hell. Shame on him if it is not politics and for real.

[kactus]

On 8/5/2018 at 11:17 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

What the hell is wrong with this Trump guy. He declared support for Iranian people (and sent them to street to face a brutal regime and bullets and jail and torture and rape) and called Iran regime (rightly so) the murderous regime and then back-stabbed them by declaring that he is ready to negotiate with this brutal regime!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What the hell. Shame on him if it is not politics and for real.

This is all about money and trade. Trump just wanted a bigger pie in the Iran nuclear deal that European companies were already exposed to and enjoying lucrative deals. With that deal this wasn’t possible. Regardless, with or without the regime this is the harsh reality unfortunately. Trump doesn't care about the plight of Iranians as mich as he does for that share of the bigger pie.......Iranians cannot rely on him to remove this tyrannical regime. The change comes from within.

[paxamericana]

19 minutes ago, kactus said:

Iranians cannot rely on him to remove this tyrannical regime. The change comes from within.

The problem with the US doing a regime change is bad in many ways, one of which is that Iran will quickly become like Lybia as we have seen. Second liberals would just keep harping on us about interventionism and how we are wasting blood and treasure on a needless crusade. Third Trump as POTUS should look out for US interest regardless of outside opposition from the EU for financial gains. 

[paxamericana]

On 8/5/2018 at 5:17 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

What the hell is wrong with this Trump guy. He declared support for Iranian people (and sent them to street to face a brutal regime and bullets and jail and torture and rape) and called Iran regime (rightly so) the murderous regime and then back-stabbed them by declaring that he is ready to negotiate with this brutal regime!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What the hell. Shame on him if it is not politics and for real.

It's part of his good cop bad cop routine. Its all negotiation tactics. He's done it plenty to North Korea. 

[Wilber]

6 hours ago, paxamericana said:

It's part of his good cop bad cop routine. Its all negotiation tactics. He's done it plenty to North Korea. 

What’s he done with North Korea other than give its leader international recognition no NK leader has never had before and start a trade war with the one country he really needs in order to put pressure on Kim?

 

Oh, and suspend joint US, SK military exercises because Kim doesn’t like them.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Wilber

[paxamericana]

2 hours ago, Wilber said:

What’s he done with North Korea other than give its leader international recognition

LOLS, so what about fire and fury last year, everyone was freaking out about how we were going to go thermal nuclear war with NK. the RUssian and chinese even station troops on their border. 

We got our prisoners back, no more nuclear test for over 8 months, no more ballistic missile test for the same amount of time, we got some of our remains back. sounds like a pretty good deal for just a meeting. Did we lift sanctions? No, Is de-nuclearization still on going, yes. 

Suspending joint exercises was a concession to keep the peace and a good will gesture by the US. Again good cop bad cop. 

But hey if you want to believe the fake news media without finding an different view then that's your choice.

Edited August 7, 2018 by paxamericana

[Argus]

On 8/4/2018 at 9:47 PM, OftenWrong said:

Sounds reasonable. I think Donald Trump is like a gambler. He's playing high stakes economic... poker.

Yeah, you really want a guy whose casinos went bankrupt shortly after they opened gambling with your economy.

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

Yeah, you really want a guy whose casinos went bankrupt shortly after they opened gambling with your economy.

 

....then he became president of the United States...not too shabby for a gambler.

America has always taken bigger risks than Canada, with bigger rewards.

[Wilber]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

Yeah, you really want a guy whose casinos went bankrupt shortly after they opened gambling with your economy.

And someone who must raise money offshore because banks in his own country won't deal with him.

[kactus]

11 minutes ago, Wilber said:

And someone who must raise money offshore because banks in his own country won't deal with him.

Deutsche Bank was one of them that loaned money to Trump

[Wilber]

3 minutes ago, kactus said:

Deutsche Bank was one of them that loaned money to Trump

Bank of China as well. 

One wonders how much Russian money.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Wilber