Has Trump made it necessary to disband NATO?

[Zeitgeist]

5 hours ago, Argus said:

If Trump keeps pushing we may have to. But I'm not sure that's not his goal, along with his Russian masters'.

Break up NATO to leave Russia free to use its military muscle to push west.

I agree that there might be a bigger geopolitical play here, a new unwritten divide between the fascist oligarch kleptocracy (Russia, Trump’s remake of the Republican Party, and Saudi Arabia) versus a Sino-European Alliance (China, Europe, Iran).  Right now the UK sits closer to the former; Canada is closer to the latter.  In the end though, I think most Canadians feel most comfortable with UK institutions and values.  What’s also strange is that Russia has traditionally maintained better relations with Iran than the US has.  I’d like to think that the hard won post WW2 alliance holds, but guys like Trump or the new populist right leaders in Italy and Eastern Europe don’t seem to see the instability and terror that fascism can wrought.  

Maintaining a certain amount of neutrality in this new emerging order is essential to preserving liberal democratic values, but you need a strong military to have that independence. Canada needs a stronger military not so much because it needs to up its contributions to NATO, which it does, but rather because such alliances may not be there to rely on.  Like the US, we have had our fights with fascism and the Islamic extremism of Iran, Saudi Arabia and others, yet the US is starting to play favourites with some dirty players like Saudi Arabia and Russia, which in some ways is forcing countries to consider alliances with other strange bedfellows such as China, if only as a kind of defence.  I’d say Canada is in that position, looking at options to maintain its values.  We should strengthen the old alliances because the new ones are creepy. 

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

.... yet the US is starting to play favourites with some dirty players like Saudi Arabia and Russia, which in some ways is forcing countries to consider alliances with other strange bedfellows such as China, if only as a kind of defence.  I’d say Canada is in that position, looking at options to maintain its values.  We should strengthen the old alliances because the new ones are creepy. 

 

The U.S. has been allied with Saudi Arabia since before WW2 for several reasons (oil, Soviet Union), and FDR cemented the deal with the House of Saud.   There is nothing new or starting in this relationship that hasn't existed for over 75 years.   The Carter Doctrine was specifically directed at protecting U.S. access to Saudi/Gulf oil.

NATO has chosen to encroach on Russia as the alliance has expanded to eastern Europe, and Putin is responding as expected.

Americans and Canadians go into space on Russian Soyuz rockets...long before Trump ever took office  (contract ends in 2019).

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The U.S. has been allied with Saudi Arabia since before WW2 for several reasons (oil, Soviet Union), and FDR cemented the deal with the House of Saud.   There is nothing new or starting in this relationship that hasn't existed for over 75 years.   The Carter Doctrine was specifically directed at protecting U.S. access to Saudi/Gulf oil.

NATO has chosen to encroach on Russia as the alliance has expanded to eastern Europe, and Putin is responding as expected.

Americans and Canadians go into space on Russian Soyuz rockets...long before Trump ever took office  (contract ends in 2019).

Agreed.  Look, Russia is an amazing country.  I worked there for a year.  It also has many problems and Putin is basically a fascist.  Too many state run enterprises were handed over to his buddies. China has its own problems. I don’t think you or I want to see Canada or the US emulate either of these countries   Throw Saudi Arabia in there too.  It’s going to be harder for the US to maintain its values without alliances with other liberal democracies. 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Agreed.  Look, Russia is an amazing country.  I worked there for a year.  It also has many problems and Putin is basically a fascist.  Too many state run enterprises were handed over to his buddies. China has its own problems. I don’t think you or I want to see Canada or the US emulate either of these countries   Throw Saudi Arabia in there too.  It’s going to be harder for the US to maintain its values without alliances with other liberal democracies. 

 

Not agreed....the U.S. has been playing this high stakes game for a very long time, spending a lot more in blood and treasure than Canada.  The U.S. leads with economic and military power, the real "American values".    Other ideas are a feel good, soft power game best played by Canada instead, because it doesn't have the power to do otherwise.

The Saudis punched Canada right back in its "Canadian values" face, and other nations did not come to Canada's defense.    Trudeau and Freeland are too naive to understand why.

 

[Zeitgeist]

51 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Not agreed....the U.S. has been playing this high stakes game for a very long time, spending a lot more in blood and treasure than Canada.  The U.S. leads with economic and military power, the real "American values".    Other ideas are a feel good, soft power game best played by Canada instead, because it doesn't have the power to do otherwise.

The Saudis punched Canada right back in its "Canadian values" face, and other nations did not come to Canada's defense.    Trudeau and Freeland are too naive to understand why.

 

I always respected the UK’s values more than the US’s, but at least rhetorically the US publicly represented liberal democratic values and fair play.  This current administration has stripped off that veneer.  You’re right, Canada and countries like it are harder to come by thanks to your country’s repugnant leadership. 

[bush_cheney2004]

16 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I always respected the UK’s values more than the US’s, but at least rhetorically the US publicly represented liberal democratic values and fair play.  This current administration has stripped off that veneer.  You’re right, Canada and countries like it are harder to come by thanks to your country’s repugnant leadership. 

 

Why would American "leadership" matter when the game always involved alliances with "unsavory" regimes, thin veneer or not ?

As for UK values, a lot of the world's geopolitical problems can be traced back to that nation's history and foreign policy (Canada was part of the "Empire")...long before the USA became a superpower.

This is not a new idea, but Canada just got another lesson in realpolitik....Canada needs to be reminded once in a while.

 

Edited September 1, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Why would American "leadership" matter when the game always involved alliances with "unsavory" regimes, thin veneer or not ?

As for UK values, a lot of the world's geopolitical problems can be traced back to that nation's history and foreign policy...long before the USA became a superpower.

This is not a new idea, but Canada just got another lesson in realpolitik....Canada needs to be reminded once in a while.

 

No, you can’t keep leaning on the ends justify the means argument to rationalize bad behaviour. Accept the fact that your country is governed by an unsavoury regime. 

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

No, you can’t keep leaning on the ends justify the means argument to rationalize bad behaviour. Accept the fact that your country is governed by an unsavoury regime. 

 

Not only do I accept it, I applaud it, as it is in keeping with many previous American "regimes".

Canada can keep trying to sell its "goody two shoes" values, but the world ain't buying it...never has.

Trudeau just makes the charade more obvious.

 

[Zeitgeist]

It’s clear that values are a charade to you. Understand that there will be no Concordat with Napoleon, no deal with the devil. 

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

It’s clear that values are a charade to you. Understand that there will be no Concordat with Napoleon, no deal with the devil. 

 

There is no devil...just realpolitik.    Kissinger taught me that about 50 years ago, and he was/is right.

Canadian leaders have been blocked and mocked by several American regimes and well respected presidents...long before Trump.

Trump's "sin" is to put it all on public display, and enjoy doing it.

Still, nothing new here....remember this from 2003 ?

Quote

Liberal MP Carolyn Parrish said, "Damn Americans ... I hate those bastards."

 

[Zeitgeist]

29 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

There is no devil...just realpolitik.    Kissinger taught me that about 50 years ago, and he was/is right.

Canadian leaders have been blocked and mocked by several American regimes and well respected presidents...long before Trump.

Trump's "sin" is to put it all on public display, and enjoy doing it.

Still, nothing new here....remember this from 2003 ?

31 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

There is no devil...just realpolitik.    Kissinger taught me that about 50 years ago, and he was/is right.

Canadian leaders have been blocked and mocked by several American regimes and well respected presidents...long before Trump.

Trump's "sin" is to put it all on public display, and enjoy doing it.

Still, nothing new here....remember this from 2003 ?

 

I’m well aware of hawkish tactics, but we’re not some Cold War enemy power. No, this is not a fair game, so it’s best to leave the table. 

[bush_cheney2004]

21 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I’m well aware of hawkish tactics, but we’re not some Cold War enemy power. No, this is not a fair game, so it’s best to leave the table. 

 

They are not just tactics...they are also a strategy.   Each American "regime" decides how it wants to play the game.

Example: please recall what Eisenhower did to "NATO partners" France and UK during the Suez crisis.

Nobody is forcing Canada to stay at the table, or make so much noise about leaving. 

 

Edited September 1, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

Canada is the least of your challenges.  What a mess...

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is the least of your challenges.  What a mess...

 

True, but Canada is America's closest and oldest...enemy.

This chapter is just another in a border relationship that has been up and down many times, and it too will pass.

 

[Zeitgeist]

China is looking better and better in relation to the U.S.   Something tells me that by the time China outstrips U.S. power, the world will embrace it.  Nice going...

[bush_cheney2004]

11 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

China is looking better and better in relation to the U.S.   Something tells me that by the time China outstrips U.S. power, the world will embrace it.  Nice going...

 

So what's wrong with that ?     Canadians will still be able to watch lots of American television...just as they always have.

[Zeitgeist]

8 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

So what's wrong with that ?     Canadians will still be able to watch lots of American television...just as they always have.

Nothing is assured anymore.  I'm not sure Hollywood will retain its cool factor if it's seen as complicit with fascist leadership.  That hasn't happened yet.  Most of Hollywood is Democrat.  If Trump is an anomaly, America will move on with the rest of the world.  If he isn't, the world will move on without America.  China is quietly biding its time.

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Nothing is assured anymore.  I'm not sure Hollywood will retain its cool factor if it's seen as complicit with fascist leadership.  That hasn't happened yet.  Most of Hollywood is Democrat.  If Trump is an anomaly, America will move on with the rest of the world.  If he isn't, the world will move on without America.  China is quietly biding its time.

 

China should do whatever is in China's interests....just like America, which is not responsible for meeting Canadian or EU expectations, especially NATO deadbeats.

I have personally helped with technology transfer to the Chinese....20 years ago....to get access to their huge market.

...and it worked...China is now the USA's #1 trading partner, not Canada.

[Zeitgeist]

10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

China should do whatever is in China's interests....just like America, which is not responsible for meeting Canadian or EU expectations, especially NATO deadbeats.

I have personally helped with technology transfer to the Chinese....20 years ago....to get access to their huge market.

...and it worked...China is now the USA's #1 trading partner, not Canada.

Don't brag about your folly.  It's as bad as handing over IBM to the Japanese decades ago.  Yes, China is running with that tech and dominating the South China Sea.  The tentacles are spreading.  The infrastructure projects underway in China are the biggest the world has ever seen.  Its Silk Road project connecting China, India and Europe by land will carry more trade than any route in history.  Where U.S. leadership is rattling sabers, China is getting shit done.  Yes, the U.S. is heavily dependent now on Chinese trade and debt flows.  Ouch.

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Don't brag about your folly.  It's as bad as handing over IBM to the Japanese decades ago.  Yes, China is running with that tech and dominating the South China Sea.  The tentacles are spreading.  The infrastructure projects underway in China are the biggest the world has ever seen.  Its Silk Road project connecting China, India and Europe by land will carry more trade than any route in history.  Where U.S. leadership is rattling sabers, China is getting shit done.  Yes, the U.S. is heavily dependent now on Chinese trade and debt flows.  Ouch.

 

The U.S. is not nearly as dependent as is Canada on U.S. trade flows...why is that so much more acceptable ?    Strange.....

What do you have against China ?

[Zeitgeist]

12 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The U.S. is not nearly as dependent as is Canada on U.S. trade flows...why is that so much more acceptable ?    Strange.....

What do you have against China ?

I think China will be a necessary counter to US and Russian polarities.  The US used to be their moral superior.  If China has the one child policy and cultural revolution in its history and Russia the gulags and totalitarianism, the US has supplemented slavery with the Muslim ban and the upending of a critical international agreement on climate change.  Trudeau and the centre left (including in the US) are tilting towards China. 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

I think China will be a necessary counter to US and Russian polarities. 

 

Indeed...elephants have elephant business to tend to....mice just get to watch.

[Zeitgeist]

42 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Indeed...elephants have elephant business to tend to....mice just get to watch.

Just hand over the keys to China and Russia and return to Stormy Daniels videos.  Meanwhile let the right set up rules that only the poor have to obey and a tax code that strips the government of any capacity to fix social problems.  Screw the environment while you’re at it.  Who wants to raise the cost of SUV’s anyway?  Find me walled off from the inner city in 105 degree temps drunk on mojitos. 

[bush_cheney2004]

22 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Just hand over the keys to China and Russia and return to Stormy Daniels videos.

 

Who says America can't have both ?    Always have before.....and Canada likes to watch.

[taxme]

On 7/13/2018 at 6:41 PM, Argus said:

And take on all that debt!? Are you crazy!?

FYI, Trump just reduced the debt from 900 billion to 500 billion since he became President. Not bad, eh? So, just how much did Trudeau reduce our debt by lately?