Jump to content

Has Trump made it necessary to disband NATO?


Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Machjo said:

True. But if we can make ourselves as economically and culturally integrated as possible into the North American economy, the US military would soon become powerless against us. After all, I can't imagine many Americans appreciating the US military bombing their daughters and suns-in-law to death or US businesses appreciating the US military bombing their business partners' to the ground.

 

Really ?   See "U.S. Civil War".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Machjo said:

OK, I exaggerated. It would reduce the risk then, meaning that the US would have to be determined enough to attack Canada to accept killing its own people to do so.

 

If you are trying to rationalize why Canada need not spend money on defence to the NATO obligated 2% of GDP level, an unlikely attack from the United States is not the way to do it. 

Just leave NATO....be done with it and any international role for Canada.   Stay at the children's table.

Edited by bush_cheney2004
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

If you are trying to rationalize why Canada need not spend money on defence to the NATO obligated 2% of GDP level, an unlikely attack from the United States is not the way to do it. 

Just leave NATO....be done with it and any international role for Canada.   Stay at the children's table.

Finland and many other countries in the world have done fine outside of NATO, no?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

NATO leaders praise Donald Trump:

Trump's Nato approach helped make a difference, says May
Theresa May has defended Donald Trump’s approach to last week’s Nato summit, claiming it made all the difference in encouraging European allies to “step up” their defence spending. “Just in the last year we’ve seen an extra $41bn added to defence budgets across the Nato allies and there was a real sense at this summit, following the discussion that he initiated, that we would see people not just stepping up in terms of going to meet their 2%, but seeing that there was an increased urgency in doing this.”
Trump also clashed with Angela Merkel over German’s proposed pipeline deal with Russia, saying it was “totally inappropriate” for Berlin to buy billions of dollars worth of oil and gas while failing to meet Nato’s 2% defence spending target.

The $41B increase was achieved earlier this year, with credit given primarily to the US president:
NATO chief thanks Trump for leadership on military spending
NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg praised President Donald Trump on Thursday for pushing countries in the alliance to boost their defense spending, an issue that has driven a wedge between Trump and Europe before. “Let me thank you for the leadership you show on the issue of defense spending because it is very important that we all contribute more to our shared security, and it is really having an impact because, as you said, allies are now spending more on defense,” Stoltenberg said while taking reporters’ questions after the leaders met at the White House. “All allies are increasing their defense budgets.”

Rose Gottemoeller thanks Trump:
NATO Deputy Secretary General Praises Trump Leadership on Defense Spending
After a NATO summit marked by harsh criticism from Donald J. Trump of allies over defense spending, NATO Deputy Secretary General Rose Gottemoeller congratulated the US president for his leadership, which she said “has already shown results.” Gottemoeller, speaking at the final session of the NATO Engages event in Brussels co-hosted by the Atlantic Council, said that Trump’s sharp attacks led to “a very deep and intense discussion around the table about how the Alliance needs to intensify its efforts to fulfill its commitment to defense spending.”

World safe, for now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

NATO leaders praise Donald Trump:
 

 

You do realize they're just acknowledging and responding to his well-documented egotism and vanity, right? He is a "very stable genius", after all, to the extent he feels he must reassure us of this. I think it's really the "very stable" claim that's the major clue here. Years ago when I took a crisis prevention course at work (excellent training, by the way), we were told to respond in a calm fashion to and generally placate potentially unstable clients rather than verbally confront them. It was the only way to negotiate with them as confrontational responses often lead to an escalation in unreasonable, unpredictable and even violent conduct.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the NATO deadbeats are feeling the fire that President Trump lit under their asses, then it is "mission accomplished".

Trump is hardly the first U.S. president to criticize and threaten NATO deadbeats.

I still think NATO is obsolete, but if it must endure as is, then it should be properly funded by all members.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

If the NATO deadbeats are feeling the fire that President Trump lit under their asses, then it is "mission accomplished".

Trump is hardly the first U.S. president to criticize and threaten NATO deadbeats.

I still think NATO is obsolete, but if it must endure as is, then it should be properly funded by all members.

As I've noted before, Christiane Amanpour pointed out last week that following the collapse of the Soviet bloc the Europeans wanted to establish a stand-alone security system but were opposed in this by the Americans who wanted to remain involved in European security. (I've read that the British were also opposed due to their preference to sustain their "special relationship" with the U.S. and serve as a middleman of sorts between Europe and America.) So, it's hardly credible for the U.S. to argue that it's been stuck with European/NATO costs when this is the security system it preferred in the first place. But would Trump even know this, particularly given that he reportedly doesn't read? Likely not.

I too think NATO is obsolete and in the emerging Trumpian World Order maintaining it is probably counterproductive, although my concerns are likely grounded in different logic than are yours. Europe, and Canada too for that matter, would be better off adopting a MAGA mantra - Make America Go Away.

Edited by turningrite
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

If the NATO deadbeats are feeling the fire that President Trump lit under their asses, then it is "mission accomplished".

Trump is hardly the first U.S. president to criticize and threaten NATO deadbeats.

I still think NATO is obsolete, but if it must endure as is, then it should be properly funded by all members.

We need to move away from being a protectorate to having real partners. Not deadbeats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, turningrite said:

As I've noted before, Christiane Amanpour pointed out last week that following the collapse of the Soviet bloc the Europeans wanted to establish a stand-alone security system but were opposed in this by the Americans who wanted to remain involved in European security.

 

The Europeans did not push very hard for such independence after Europe lay in self inflicted, post WW2 ruins either.    The Marshall Plan was not funded by Europe.

NATO was designed to "keep America in, Russia out, and Germany down".     This did not change in 1991, and troubles would continue in Eastern Europe.

The Europeans may say they want their own security system, but talk is cheap.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, turningrite said:

You do realize they're just acknowledging and responding to his well-documented egotism and vanity, right? He is a "very stable genius", after all, to the extent he feels he must reassure us of this. I think it's really the "very stable" claim that's the major clue here.

Rubbish... there is no reason for them to do anything of the sort. You're essentially saying that these world leaders are liars.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

You're essentially saying that these world leaders are liars.

No, I'm saying they're biding their time. What else can they do? They can't interfere in U.S. politics to get rid of him, so they'll wait for his regime to discredit and/or defeat itself. They're likely hoping the midterms will undermine Republican control of Congress. So why give him any ammunition when they know he'll use it to ramp up the kind of rhetoric his base seems to favor. So, they'll stay calm, carry on and pander to Trump's narcissism, at least to a degree that's politically possible in their respective countries. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, turningrite said:

No, I'm saying they're biding their time. What else can they do? They can't interfere in U.S. politics to get rid of him, so they'll wait for his regime to discredit and/or defeat itself. They're likely hoping the midterms will undermine Republican control of Congress. So why give him any ammunition when they know he'll use it to ramp up the kind of rhetoric his base seems to favor. So, they'll stay calm, carry on and pander to Trump's narcissism, at least to a degree that's politically possible in their respective countries. 

Meanwhile they enjoy the money he got them, and praise him publicly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 weeks later...
On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 12:22 PM, turningrite said:

You do realize they're just acknowledging and responding to his well-documented egotism and vanity, right? He is a "very stable genius", after all, to the extent he feels he must reassure us of this. I think it's really the "very stable" claim that's the major clue here. Years ago when I took a crisis prevention course at work (excellent training, by the way), we were told to respond in a calm fashion to and generally placate potentially unstable clients rather than verbally confront them. It was the only way to negotiate with them as confrontational responses often lead to an escalation in unreasonable, unpredictable and even violent conduct.

So this has nothing to do with the increasing Russian threat, that has alarm bells ringing in a lot of European countries.....The fact that Europe has cashed in its peace bonds, let it's military strength slip to dangerous levels something that concerns the European union, everyone is talking about it....and now that the US finally has a voice that does not want to be politically correct and wants all the dead beats to pay for their own share of the defense of Europe and other NATO commitments that this is the US fault, we can't give him the credit for atleast forcing them into action, well besides Canada which told the world to F*** off we are not playing this game....because we know better...lets rephrase that a Canadian school teacher knows better some how....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/13/2018 at 6:25 PM, Army Guy said:

 I'm also sure that there is a list of good things that the monarchy has given us.... 

Dianna, Kate...sorry, can't think of much else.

While they DID leave us a system of some kind of government, it probably aborted any attempts by a possible set of founding fathers to define our future with the kind of foresight and good judgement that the Yanks had when they dumped Britain on its ass.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/18/2018 at 4:05 PM, paxamericana said:

We need to move away from being a protectorate to having real partners. Not deadbeats.

And who do you imagine likes you enough, any more, to want to partner with you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/18/2018 at 7:19 PM, Army Guy said:

So this has nothing to do with the increasing Russian threat, that has alarm bells ringing in a lot of European countries.....The fact that Europe has cashed in its peace bonds, let it's military strength slip to dangerous levels something that concerns the European union, everyone is talking about it...

Germany population 87 million, has 27,000 reserves (about the same as Canada). Stories this year included that it had just 4 fighter aircraft that were in working order, and equipped with missiles. Less than half their 250 tanks are operational (Russia has 4500). None of their submarines work.

France has only 32,000 reserves itself. Last year a report said 30% of its aircraft were operational.

Finland, population 5.5 million has 900,000 reserves. By way of comparison.

The Russians are starting a military exercise soon in western Russia, near NATO's borders, with 300,000 troops. I don't think they have any intention of crossing the border, but if they did, Germany could do nothing to stop them. They'd have the whole country conquered in the time needed to drive across it. Only mighty Poland stands in their way. LOL

Edited by Argus
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, cannuck said:

Dianna, Kate...sorry, can't think of much else.

While they DID leave us a system of some kind of government, it probably aborted any attempts by a possible set of founding fathers to define our future with the kind of foresight and good judgement that the Yanks had when they dumped Britain on its ass.

Basically  that they the UK are our founding fathers for a large part , I mean most of what we have today has been given to us by the UK, our form of government, the basis of our laws , I would even go out on a branch and say, the basis for our values and morals have been shaped by the UK. While some people will have issue with that , I don't see a problem with it.

What would Canada look like if we had followed the path of our brothers in the south.... I don't think we could of made it without influence from the UK. the good and bad....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/29/2018 at 8:14 PM, Argus said:

Finland, population 5.5 million has 900,000 reserves. By way of comparison.

Finland also has conscription - so you have no choice (except jail time) other than to serve.   You DO have a choice to do so in an armed service (the 900,000) or unarmed in support.   But, one way or another, every adult male will give the state one year of their lives.   Sweden has also a compulsory service deal, and in their case you are technically a reservist for life, subject to recall at any time.

Now, I personally don't have any great problem with that.   Instead of raising another generation who feel they are entitled to a free ride for life, giving every young adult a year of training and discipline is more likely to produce a generation of people who have some useful skills and some clear understanding of their responsibilities to their nation and fellow citizens is not a bad thing.   What I seem to recall from my past is that when the US had conscription, there was a workforce of civilians who ALL had some basic skills at least an idea of how things can be organized and accomplished.   IMHO, it was as important to the veracity of the economy as other fundamentals such as the Interstate system (also with a definite military component).  If I could be dictator for a term, we would have conscription much like Finland - with things such as fire, police, EMT, CO service counting towards one's required time.  Doing so would give disparate groups - such as aboriginals - a hell of a lot better start on adult life than what the current situation of dependence does.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Wilber said:

Some say we should be like neutrals such as Sweden and Switzerland. Both have compulsory  military service. When you are a neutral with no alliances, you have to look after yourself.

If Trump keeps pushing we may have to. But I'm not sure that's not his goal, along with his Russian masters'.

Break up NATO to leave Russia free to use its military muscle to push west.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Tell a friend

    Love Repolitics.com - Political Discussion Forums? Tell a friend!
  • Member Statistics

    • Total Members
      10,751
    • Most Online
      1,403

    Newest Member
    Betsy Smith
    Joined
  • Recent Achievements

    • wwef235 earned a badge
      Week One Done
    • phoenyx75 went up a rank
      Apprentice
    • User went up a rank
      Mentor
    • NakedHunterBiden earned a badge
      One Month Later
    • Videospirit earned a badge
      One Month Later
  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...