Queenmandy85 Posted July 10, 2018 Report Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) Growing the economy takes years. Our allies are not that patient. Our governments have already cut taxes to the point that the infrastructure is degrading, health care is suffering and the justice system can't keep up. We just don't have the money. We did adopt free trade. It is call NAFTA. What sort of de-regualation are you suggesting? Edited July 10, 2018 by Queenmandy85 Quote A Conservative stands for God, King and Country
Argus Posted July 10, 2018 Report Posted July 10, 2018 14 hours ago, turningrite said: d the military hardware, why waste money making or buying it? Germany, which spends a smaller percentage of its GDP on its military than does Canada, seems to be doing very well. Yes. You can do very well without a military. Until you need it. And, like insurance, once you need it, it's far too late to buy it. I have fire insurance. Always had it. Never needed it. By the logic above I should discard it as unnecessary. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
turningrite Posted July 10, 2018 Report Posted July 10, 2018 1 minute ago, Argus said: Yes. You can do very well without a military. Until you need it. And, like insurance, once you need it, it's far too late to buy it. I have fire insurance. Always had it. Never needed it. By the logic above I should discard it as unnecessary. It's not really a valid comparison because if you have a fire your insurance will likely cover the cost of most or all your damages after you cover the deductible. With defense, on the other hand, there's a substantial difference in scale to consider. The scale of the military forces we might confront, including the U.S. or Russia, are so vastly greater than anything this country can afford as to render military spending tokenism. If we were really to face an attack from another country, which is a very remote possibility in any case, we'd likely be defenseless even if we were to double or triple our current military spending. If you want to continue with the insurance analogy, maintaining a large military defensive capability would in Canada's case be like having an insurance policy were you could only pay to cover 10 or 15 percent of potential damages. In the modern era, there is really only one strategy that permits smaller nations to gain any military leverage, which is acquiring and maintaining nuclear weapons. Canada certainly has the technological capability to do this, but are we willing to do it? 1 Quote
GostHacked Posted July 10, 2018 Report Posted July 10, 2018 5 hours ago, paxrom said: Cited sources? What cites sources would you accept as legit? Quote
paxamericana Posted July 10, 2018 Author Report Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, GostHacked said: What cites sources would you accept as legit? Anything but Russian News like RT, Sputnik etc...and the sources can't stem from Russian sources either. Edited July 10, 2018 by paxrom Quote
GostHacked Posted July 10, 2018 Report Posted July 10, 2018 Paxrom https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-iraq-arms/arms-supplied-by-u-s-saudi-ended-up-with-islamic-state-researchers-say-idUSKBN1E82EQ Quote Conflict Armament Research (CAR) said most Islamic State weapons were looted from the Iraqi and Syrian armies. But some were originally provided by other countries, mainly the United States and Saudi Arabia, to Syrian opposition groups fighting against President Bashar al-Assad. Looting from Iraqi armies with the plethora of kit the USA though would be too expensive to bring back home. So they left it in Iraq and the terrorists took it all. Another stupid move by the USA. https://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/05/20/isis-captures-hundreds-of-us-vehicles-and-tanks-in-ramadi-from-i.html Quote The ISIS fleet of captured U.S. military vehicles, including M1A1 tanks, grew by more than 100 when Iraqi Security Forces (ISF) fled the provincial capital of Ramadi 60 miles west of Baghdad and abandoned their equipment , Pentagon officials said Tuesday. In addition, "there were some artillery pieces left behind," said Army Col. Steve Warren, a Pentagon spokesman, but he could not say how many. About 100 wheeled vehicles and "in the neighborhood of dozens of tracked vehicles" were lost to ISIS when the last remaining Iraqi defenders abandoned the city of about 500,000, Warren said. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-ria-turkey-rebels/fsa-commander-says-25000-syrian-rebels-back-turkish-force-in-syria-idUSKBN1FA0OK Quote AMMAN (Reuters) - Around 25,000 Free Syrian Army rebels are joining the Turkish military operation in northern Syria with the goal of recapturing Arab towns and villages seized by the YPG Kurdish militia almost two years ago, a rebel commander said on Sunday. Anyways there is another thread you can read through on here that has already gone through all of this. I will see if I can get that thread for you. Even though you will never go through it, at least I tried. https://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/21206-syrian-civil-war/ Quote
GostHacked Posted July 10, 2018 Report Posted July 10, 2018 9 minutes ago, paxrom said: Anything but Russian News like RT, Sputnik etc...and the sources can't stem from Russian sources either. Even if they are American journalists working for RT? Ed covers all that before his death. Quote
paxamericana Posted July 10, 2018 Author Report Posted July 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, GostHacked said: Even if they are American journalists working for RT? Ed covers all that before his death. I shudder at the useful idiots Russia finds. Ill respond to your other points once I finish fact checking and drawing up a conclusion. Quote
GostHacked Posted July 10, 2018 Report Posted July 10, 2018 42 minutes ago, paxrom said: I shudder at the useful idiots Russia finds. Ill respond to your other points once I finish fact checking and drawing up a conclusion. Fact check all you want. You'll be surprised at what you'll find. But the way MSNBC treated Shultz is how many US journalists are treated by many of the MSM outlets when they start speaking to the real truth. This is also why Andrew Breitbart is dead. Quote
Army Guy Posted July 10, 2018 Report Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) On 7/9/2018 at 4:37 PM, turningrite said: Quote Canada should declare itself a neutral state. Two of the Western world's most stable democracies, Switzerland and Sweden, have long been neutral. Although it played an important role in WWII, Canada today has no crucial role to play in Europe. And Canada should cease all formal association with America's military aspirations and apparatus. We have only one natural enemy and one natural ally, and in each case it is the U.S. We'd be better off to operate a civil defense force and let the Americans and Europeans take care of their own interests and security concerns. Today, the story of Sweden is rapidly changing , from a neutral country to one that is pressing to become a NATO member, a country that is already allowing NATO forces to exercise with in Sweden's own borders, and it has also taken part in NATO lead missions such as Afghanistan, Bosnia, etc...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_neutrality Canada has played an important role in most British lead expeditions, Boar war, WWI, WWII, along with the occupation forces of Europe assisting in the rebuilding of Germany, but also as a low tier contributor to NATO including NAVAL, AIR, and Ground forces up until the 1990's....lets not forget about our contributions to a full Brigade group to NORWAY, still ongoing although on a smaller scale. I'd say it is a little unfair to say Canada our role was confined to WWII. Canada does have forces in Latvia, still part of Europe I think....although it is a small role we are still there, Canada could have a much larger role if it had the forces to man it. Lets remember we disbanded an entire brigade group once we left Germany in the 90's . Canada has made up it's own mind on all it's mission it has undertaken, IE we did not take part in the Iraq invasion, although we do have combat forces there now. for the most part our interests foreign and domestic are linked...yes Canadians have made it part of our Canadian identity to be anything but American, but we are more alike than what separates us....and that pisses Canadians off. The last thing we need is big brother telling us what to do....right, or maybe we have reached that point were we need someone telling us ….get you shit together.... Canada has more than one enemy or threat to our nation , I spent 34 years in the military listening to thousands of intel briefs, not one of them listed the USA as a enemy...most if not all listed the US as being an allied, it also listed close allies as being the UK, Australia, New Zealand, all one has to do is look at the defensive treaties we have signed on to and these names will come up over and over....as will our nations threats.... What does a Civil defense force look like, how is it equipped, and what job does it have, how is it funded....Lots of questions...neutrality and a defense force to ensure it stays neutral is not cheap ask the SWISS. Edited July 10, 2018 by Army Guy 1 1 Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted July 10, 2018 Report Posted July 10, 2018 On 7/9/2018 at 4:37 PM, turningrite said: It's my recollection that you reacted to my statement that Canada should become a militarily neutral country, like Sweden, Switzerland, or, as I've noted in some other posts, Mexico. In a recent column the Toronto Star writer Thomas Walkom discusses the usefulness of NATO in a post-Soviet environment and whether Canada has any legitimate role to play in remaining in the alliance (link 1 below). Otherwise, though, where do Canada's strategic interests rest? No country is likely to invade us due to our proximity to the U.S., whether or not we maintain substantial military capabilities. The U.S., in fact, is the only foreign country ever since Britain defeated France on the Plains of Abraham to invade what we now consider to be Canadian territory, and that was more than 200 years ago. Canada's 1867 Confederation was formed at least in part to thwart the possibility of an American takeover in the aftermath of the Civil War. If Trump wants to bluster and insult, let him do so, but why play into his game? The Europeans are getting fed up and are discussing what amounts to a 'Plan B' alternative to NATO. France's Macron proposes the creation of a new EU security force capable of confronting Russia, although the UK remains, at least for now and perhaps due to the Brexit outcome, more attached to the NATO model, which Macron's model seems intended to replace (see link 2 below). If Trump pushes too hard, he may well see traditional American allies abandon NATO altogether. Where, then, will Canada stand? Better, I think to use abandonment of the American-designed model as leverage while we can. https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/07/05/what-is-the-point-of-nato.html https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41403394 Link one author is all over the place, he states now with the soviet union long gone, and yet ex warsaw nations are begging to join NATO for fear of Russian aggression, so much so that NATO has moved in thousands of troops to reassure them it is not going to happen, Some European nations have gone back to conscription because they to fear Russian aggression....Russia is rebuilding and has been for several years now, revamping Naval units, Air units, and ground units, expanding it's military that has a lot of NATO countries concerned....code for scared...not to mention Chinas massive military build up....SO what is it are these threats long gone....because it has NATO, and US military staff worried.... The old myth Canada is never going to get invaded, and yet our nations leaders had huge concerns over the very same thing once the NAZI's took control of most of Europe...what has change since then, well tech has grown in massive leaps and bounds.....making globalization that much easier...Just how large of an invasion force do you think would be required to get a foot hold in Canada....considering our military forces today.....and the state they are in. You see it as Trumps blustering , I see it as a guy that is pissed off his country has paid the bill for peace in our time , and "allied" have been cashing in on this peace bond, the more they cash in the more the US pays.....until NATO is nothing more than a shell....and if it gets to weak, it will no linger be a deterrent, and if that happens how many lives, US service members will have to pay that price...not to mention how many Canadians will be shipped overseas to fight a conflict that we are not prepared for....Why can't Canadians see that.... Europe has been talking and creating a Euro force for years now, and it has been slow going, hard to get them to put funding towards NATO let alone a fully equipped and manned Euro army. Euro nations are going to find our that putting together a Euro army is far more expensive than what they have been paying out now...This also the same concept Canada will face if they decide to leave and go it alone, that it is going to be far more expensive, than what they are paying now... I can remember when the US was talking about withdrawing from NATO due to all the bitching the euros were doing , in the face of US troop reductions, and down sizing....They seemed to be in panic mode, they new they would have to pay for all that protection the US was providing. Where will that leave Canada, it will leave them with the bill that's were...poor US relations, our economy will suffer, Canadians will soon learn They (US) does not need Canada, we need the US.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted July 10, 2018 Report Posted July 10, 2018 On 7/9/2018 at 5:50 PM, Queenmandy85 said: If the change is that dramatic, the government would be honour bound to place it before the electorate. It would involve a drastic increase in taxes and it is particularly true if withdrawing from the nuclear no-proliferation treaty is proposed and if conscription is being proposed. As for confronting Russia in the arctic, if we aprehended Russian ships in the Arctic, do you seriously think they would back off and leave it at that? You mean like going from a traditional peace keeping force to one that was a offensive combat one like we had in Afghanistan....or perhaps you can talk about Mulroney's massive White paper that included NUC subs for patrolling the artic, massive reforms to ground and air powers...Or perhaps you are talking about even larger changes i'm not sure, in any case these were PM's that had big dreams for DND only to find out the cost....No election or being honor bound to the tax payers....they decided , like most topics that never make it to the tax payers until they have been adopted....returning our Nuc wpns to the US did not require any vote, neither did conscription all ideas that were drafted and implemented in Parliament. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
taxme Posted July 10, 2018 Report Posted July 10, 2018 2 hours ago, paxrom said: I shudder at the useful idiots Russia finds. Ill respond to your other points once I finish fact checking and drawing up a conclusion. Gawd dam Trump and Putin. Those two are going to blow up the world. LOL. Quote
taxme Posted July 10, 2018 Report Posted July 10, 2018 On 7/4/2018 at 11:14 AM, paxrom said: Not to single you out canada but all nato-dead beat should renounce the virtue of a free liberal democracy. Why? Because you people are not willing to pay for it. Not willing to pay the ultimate price for freedom. Being under America's security umbrella has given these country un-precedented wealth and prosperity. Money that could be allocated to America's health care and other social policy has been in turn used to make up for our dead beat allies. I propose that in keeping with the wishes of both countries, Canada should quickly kowtow to beijing or russia. Renounce any notion of a free and independent country. Turn into hongkong, and elect leaders that are pre approved by the central government. It will make the Russian election meddling look like child's play. Criticism of the central government would be suppress and all dissidents will quickly disappear. Free and independent press would no longer be necessary. George orwell would turn over in his grave at the level of dystopia. But these issue are a small price to pay for getting rid of obnoxious American fascism. PS, i still love you Canada, but this is tough love. Canada should become like Switzerland. Remain neutral and get the hell out of NATO. Save me money. Alone we could not win a war with anyone anyway not that we would want to start a war with anyone. Why we cannot even seem to be able to defend our borders from illegal criminal invaders. Our police just stand there and watch as these criminals walk right past them and then will even carry their baggage for them. We are just too soft a country with soft politically correct leaders. I am always amazed as to how this country has lasted this long without imploding. I guess that zombie numbness and stupidity is somehow keeping it together. Amazing, eh? Quote
Army Guy Posted July 11, 2018 Report Posted July 11, 2018 On 7/9/2018 at 5:14 PM, Queenmandy85 said: Canada's deficits and surpluses, 1963 to 2015 CBC News · Posted: Apr 21, 2015 4:58 PM ET | Last Updated: February 11, 2016 Are you saying the Cons are responsible for all the debt occurred since 1963.....is that a white lie, or just plain BS I can't tell. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Jimwd Posted July 11, 2018 Report Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, taxme said: Canada should become like Switzerland. Remain neutral and get the hell out of NATO. Save me money. Alone we could not win a war with anyone anyway not that we would want to start a war with anyone. Why we cannot even seem to be able to defend our borders from illegal criminal invaders. Our police just stand there and watch as these criminals walk right past them and then will even carry their baggage for them. We are just too soft a country with soft politically correct leaders. I am always amazed as to how this country has lasted this long without imploding. I guess that zombie numbness and stupidity is somehow keeping it together. Amazing, eh? Perhaps it’s time to leave and apply south. Edited July 11, 2018 by Jimwd Quote
Queenmandy85 Posted July 11, 2018 Report Posted July 11, 2018 39 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Are you saying the Cons are responsible for all the debt occurred since 1963.....is that a white lie, or just plain BS I can't tell. No. Pierre Trudeau ran deficits as did Mulroney and Harper. Chretien managed to get surpluses. Quote A Conservative stands for God, King and Country
Queenmandy85 Posted July 11, 2018 Report Posted July 11, 2018 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: You mean like going from a traditional peace keeping force to one that was a offensive combat one like we had in Afghanistan....or perhaps you can talk about Mulroney's massive White paper that included NUC subs for patrolling the artic, massive reforms to ground and air powers...Or perhaps you are talking about even larger changes i'm not sure, in any case these were PM's that had big dreams for DND only to find out the cost....No election or being honor bound to the tax payers....they decided , like most topics that never make it to the tax payers until they have been adopted....returning our Nuc wpns to the US did not require any vote, neither did conscription all ideas that were drafted and implemented in Parliament. I think you and I have different concepts of 'drastic' change in policy. I want to see a force that can defend this country. That requires a massive investment in conventional forces. Do you think the government can just announce that with out a mandate? Even the request for the 2% is a pretty major hike in taxes. I am thinking that is what you have in mind, but I should not try to put words in your mouth. That is already part of the ten year plan but the US wants us to go for it now. If you were in government, how would you finance it, keeping in mind all the other competing demands in healthcare, and infrastructure in transportation, the justice system education and research? Quote A Conservative stands for God, King and Country
taxme Posted July 11, 2018 Report Posted July 11, 2018 18 hours ago, Jimwd said: Perhaps it’s time to leave and apply south. Maybe if people like you applied for citizenship in Cuba or Venezuela this country would be a lot better off. It is for sure that you are of no help in trying to make Canada great again. Bye-bye. 1 Quote
paxamericana Posted July 11, 2018 Author Report Posted July 11, 2018 3 hours ago, taxme said: Maybe if people like you applied for citizenship in Cuba or Venezuela this country would be a lot better off. It is for sure that you are of no help in trying to make Canada great again. Bye-bye. I find this political satire to be most accurate with the over political correctness. Quote
Army Guy Posted July 11, 2018 Report Posted July 11, 2018 On 7/9/2018 at 12:24 AM, Queenmandy85 said: Not to nitpick and God help me for not saying something againt the Liberals, but the Harper government pissed away the surplus left to them and buried us in deficit. Okay, so I am nitpicking. This bulletin has measured per-person federal debt that Canadian prime ministers have accumulated from 1870 to the end of Justin Trudeau’s first term in 2019. By the end of his term, Justin Trudeau is expected to be the largest debt accumulator among prime ministers who did not experience a world war or at least one economic downturn during their tenure. The only other two prime ministers to increase federal debt without fighting a world war or experiencing an economic downturn are Sir Mackenzie Bowell and Sir John Abbott who both served in the late 19th century.https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/analysis-of-federal-debt-in-canada-by-prime-ministers-since-confederation.pdf And while I agree with you Harper did rack up an impressive debt, but as I remember it it was mostly spent on economic growth, and at both the liberals and NDP request.....now if we are going to point fingers maybe we should have a look at those liberals, guys like Justins father , Mulroney adjust them to todays dollars and we will see who is really responsible for debt.... https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/analysis-of-federal-debt-in-canada-by-prime-ministers-since-confederation.pdf you don't like the source I can get another if you like..... 1 Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Jimwd Posted July 12, 2018 Report Posted July 12, 2018 5 hours ago, taxme said: Maybe if people like you applied for citizenship in Cuba or Venezuela this country would be a lot better off. It is for sure that you are of no help in trying to make Canada great again. Bye-bye. I am a patriot. I like my country. You on the other hand view it differently, so leave, Quote
Queenmandy85 Posted July 12, 2018 Report Posted July 12, 2018 37 minutes ago, Army Guy provided information on historical deficits. Thanks. Good sources. It puts the issue into better perspective. perspective. Quote A Conservative stands for God, King and Country
Army Guy Posted July 12, 2018 Report Posted July 12, 2018 I'm very disappointed at our PM performance at the NATO conference, He announces that Canada has NO plans to double our defense budget as we agreed to, infact we signed onto the agreement, an agreement we no longer have ANY inclinations of living up to....what does that say about Canadians…. Justin is having a spat with the leader of the free world,and instead of acting like the PM he is more like a teenager......I can not wait until 2019 election...... infact Justin is quit proud not only is Canada not living up to the agreed 2 % but we actually decreased our defense spending this year.....deferring once again another 8 bil in purchases until 2030 or beyond...He talks a good game, but he has no intentions to spend anything on DND.....all these new missions he is signing up for will come our of existing DND budgets.....no new funding...ya baby that's supporting those troops …..when are we going to wake up..... Justin had no intentions in keeping this agreement, SO why did he sign on to it....has he kept any of his promises..... https://globalnews.ca/news/3329833/federal-budget-2017-lack-of-defence-spending-draws-fire/ Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted July 12, 2018 Report Posted July 12, 2018 27 minutes ago, Jimwd said: I am a patriot. I like my country. You on the other hand view it differently, so leave, WOW, now that is the answer isn't , don't like what you here, it's time to pack them up and ship them off..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
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