The Great Immigration Debate

[ZavHoz]

On 7/24/2018 at 5:26 PM, Argus said:

Too bad the government didnt't put out proper data on costs of things like the immigration and refugee system, huh?

I guess that you can see this figure in such a top secret document like budget. 

Stop funding that fuckin IRCC!!!!!!!!!!! No money on immigration. Let them walk here with no papers!!!! 

[turningrite]

3 hours ago, ZavHoz said:

If we calculate how much taxes immigrants' babies pay in comparison to expenses, then...

Another "smart" guy here? 

Or by the most recent generation of immigrants you mean guys who arrived in 1940? Then why the fuck you are talking about merit based system?

All other immigrants haven't actually died yet. So, they are still paying, relax and stop posting bs... 

What are you going on about? Personally, I don't think you know what you're talking about but it's possible your real purpose is to employ emotional outbursts in an attempt to discredit those who rationally examine and/or criticize the economics of the Canadian immigration program. It's the kind of approach you appear to favor that undermines the ability of Canadians to engage in a reasonable discourse about immigration policy. And that might well lead directly to success for a party like the one proposed by Bernier.

And, by the way, the most recent generation of immigrants is generally meant to reference the cohort that's arrived during the past 25 to 30 years. If you think the most recent generation extends back to 1940, perhaps you're confusing human beings with tortoises or bowhead whales.

Edited August 30, 2018 by turningrite

[turningrite]

3 hours ago, ZavHoz said:

I guess that you can see this figure in such a top secret document like budget. 

Stop funding that fuckin IRCC!!!!!!!!!!! No money on immigration. Let them walk here with no papers!!!! 

It is in fact a real failure of accountability on the part of the federal government that the true net costs of the immigration and refugee programs are spread across and blended into several federal departmental budget lines in addition to unspecified costs associated with programs operated by provincial and municipal governments. The Fraser Institute, an NGO, has provided a public service by trying to shed light on the total extent of these costs and I believe has estimated the annual net fiscal cost to taxpayers at this point amounts to tens of billions of dollars.

By the way, I believe you need to calm down here. The tenor of your commentary (i.e. Stop funding that fuckin IRCC!!!!!!!!!!!) appears to be unsuitable for this site.

Edited August 30, 2018 by turningrite

[ZavHoz]

11 hours ago, turningrite said:

What are you going on about? Personally, I don't think you know what you're talking about but it's possible your real purpose is to employ emotional outbursts in an attempt to discredit those who rationally examine and/or criticize the economics of the Canadian immigration program. It's the kind of approach you appear to favor that undermines the ability of Canadians to engage in a reasonable discourse about immigration policy. And that might well lead directly to success for a party like the one proposed by Bernier.

And, by the way, the most recent generation of immigrants is generally meant to reference the cohort that's arrived during the past 25 to 30 years. If you think the most recent generation extends back to 1940, perhaps you're confusing human beings with tortoises or bowhead whales.

lol. So, you claim that you've calculated the impact of the immigrants' children on the Canadian economy, right?

You say that the last cohort that arrived 25-30 years ago, right?

So, how old are those children? Have they retired already? No? Then ///// your smart mouth. They are still paying taxes, dear. So, your calculation is not finished yet. And I used 1940, because I have brains. Or at least I try to think. Children of that generation most likely have already retired and don't pay taxes any more.

P.S. I don't give a fuck about Trudo. Moreover, my favourite Canadian prime minister is Harper.

[ZavHoz]

11 hours ago, turningrite said:

It is in fact a real failure of accountability on the part of the federal government that the true net costs of the immigration and refugee programs are spread across and blended into several federal departmental budget lines in addition to unspecified costs associated with programs operated by provincial and municipal governments. The Fraser Institute, an NGO, has provided a public service by trying to shed light on the total extent of these costs and I believe has estimated the annual net fiscal cost to taxpayers at this point amounts to tens of billions of dollars.

By the way, I believe you need to calm down here. The tenor of your commentary (i.e. Stop funding that fuckin IRCC!!!!!!!!!!!) appears to be unsuitable for this site.

First, don't tell me how to conduct my conversation and I won't tell you where you should go... ok? It's internet, baby!

Second, let's calculate the expenses on police. I bet they are also very hard to calculate. And... And what?

Let's get rid of police?

Let's get rid of IRCC?

Let's get rid of court system? Why not?

Every country has immigrants and HAS to have an entity to deal with immigrants. This entity is from the same range as police and courts. It's essential for any country.

So, what? You want to throw some number into my face and what? Does this number mean something?

Are you brothers with that one here who also likes absolute numbers which mean NOTHING without comparison?

You're claiming to be some sort of intellectual while saying bs. It looks ridiculous.

Edited August 30, 2018 by ZavHoz

[Argus]

16 hours ago, ZavHoz said:

If there is something I can agree with trump, this is that US immigration system SUCKS.

I totally agree with trump that the US needs a merit based system like in Canada or Australia.

Maybe you and Trump would like to consider that US immigrants have a lower unemployment rate and higher earnings than American born people. Canadian immigrants, meanwhile, have a higher unemployment rate and lower earnings than Canadian born people.

[Argus]

16 hours ago, ZavHoz said:

I guess that you can see this figure in such a top secret document like budget. 

No, you can't.

[Argus]

3 hours ago, ZavHoz said:

You're claiming to be some sort of intellectual while saying bs. It looks ridiculous.

I was thinking your posts show either a poor grasp of English or some kind of cognitive difficulty.

[turningrite]

4 hours ago, ZavHoz said:

First, don't tell me how to conduct my conversation and I won't tell you where you should go... ok? It's internet, baby!

You're claiming to be some sort of intellectual while saying bs. It looks ridiculous.

Or maybe you're a troll?

[turningrite]

4 hours ago, ZavHoz said:

You say that the last cohort that arrived 25-30 years ago, right?

So, how old are those children? Have they retired already? No? Then ///// your smart mouth. They are still paying taxes, dear. So, your calculation is not finished yet. And I used 1940, because I have brains. Or at least I try to think. Children of that generation most likely have already retired and don't pay taxes any more.

 

Canadians who were born into the generation born following, say, 1940 or 1950 (take your pick), actually paid taxes into the system to help fund the kind of services, like pensions and health care, they expect(ed) to receive in old age. It's called the "social contract" model. The most recent generation of immigrants has, conversely, become a benefits drain and yet will expect and likely receive the same benefits as prior generations of taxpayers. This illustrates a clear deficiency and inequity in Canada's approach to immigration. And it's likely not sustainable and will lead to increasingly inferior benefits for everybody, including both those who have been net contributors to the system and those who haven't.

If you think you have brains then please apply them to come up with a more coherent analysis.

[turningrite]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Maybe you and Trump would like to consider that US immigrants have a lower unemployment rate and higher earnings than American born people. Canadian immigrants, meanwhile, have a higher unemployment rate and lower earnings than Canadian born people.

This is a point that isn't often addressed. I recently read an analysis indicating that U.S. immigrants who've arrived in that country over the past couple decades are in fact net contributors to the tax base. This contrasts with the opposite situation in Canada. The big problem here, of course, is the extension of benefits to virtually all classes of migrants, including refugees and sponsored immigrants, in comparison to much more constricted access in the U.S. to public supports. How this might be remedied is a matter of controversy. I believe Australia's extensive study of its immigration programs addressed the issue of immigrant dependency and some countries in Europe have grappled with it as well. I think the best solution might be to transform Canada's so-called "universal" access model to a contributory one, granting eligibility credit both for years of residency as well as actual contributions into the system. Otherwise, we'll experience continuously declining public services, as we're already seeing with health care, and an expanding dependent class that's increasingly reliant on layered subsidies. At some point, taxpayers will revolt at this arrangement, particularly if they sense they can't or won't benefit from it.

[-TSS-]

There is always talk about white flight but there is also black flight going on in many LA-suburbs because Mexicans are chasing them away. Those two groups can't live anywhere near each other.

[Argus]

52 minutes ago, turningrite said:

This is a point that isn't often addressed. I recently read an analysis indicating that U.S. immigrants who've arrived in that country over the past couple decades are in fact net contributors to the tax base. This contrasts with the opposite situation in Canada. The big problem here, of course, is the extension of benefits to virtually all classes of migrants, including refugees and sponsored immigrants, in comparison to much more constricted access in the U.S. to public supports.

It's also the different way immigration works. Most US immigrants are sponsored by an American company. They have a job waiting for them before they get off the airplane. Most Canadian immigrants land, and then go searching for a job. And with their usually imperfect English they better hope their skill set is either in high demand, or they can find a job with one of their countrymen.

As the federal government prepares to open the door to more immigrants to drive economic growth, some who are already here say they're struggling to find jobs, despite being highly-educated and qualified.

In 2015, Statistics Canada found immigrants admitted to Canada for economic reasons, including skilled workers, earned a median annual income of $42,000, according to 2012 tax filings.

In comparison, immigrants admitted as refugees or for family reunification earned a median income of $28,000 per year.

Median after-tax income for a Canadian family of two or more was $71,100, according to StatsCan.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/immigration-employment-canada-1.3831468

Edited August 30, 2018 by Argus

[taxme]

33 minutes ago, -TSS- said:

There is always talk about white flight but there is also black flight going on in many LA-suburbs because Mexicans are chasing them away. Those two groups can't live anywhere near each other.

And things will only get worse as we keep bringing in many different races and with them their cultures where eventually there will be numerous tribal ghettoes being set up every where in Canada. It is just a matter of time. Sadly, no one is listening nor are able to see the writing on the wall. We already see that Mexicans and blacks do not like each other and do not get along in America. In Canada I know that Chinese people do not like East Indians and Koreans do not like Chinese and East Indians do no like people from India and Muslims do not like anybody and all those groups mentioned are getting bigger and bigger in population in Canada. Multiculturalism is a recipe for disaster for any country to implement but yet our politicians seem to feel that it is a wonderful game to be playing. A big mistake especially for the British/European people of Canada. They will slowly but surely become a minority if our present day immigration policy is allowed to carry on. My opinion. 

[taxme]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

It's also the different way immigration works. Most US immigrants are sponsored by an American company. They have a job waiting for them before they get off the airplane. Most Canadian immigrants land, and then go searching for a job. And with their usually imperfect English they better hope their skill set is either in high demand, or they can find a job with one of their countrymen.

As the federal government prepares to open the door to more immigrants to drive economic growth, some who are already here say they're struggling to find jobs, despite being highly-educated and qualified.

In 2015, Statistics Canada found immigrants admitted to Canada for economic reasons, including skilled workers, earned a median annual income of $42,000, according to 2012 tax filings.

In comparison, immigrants admitted as refugees or for family reunification earned a median income of $28,000 per year.

Median after-tax income for a Canadian family of two or more was $71,100, according to StatsCan.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/immigration-employment-canada-1.3831468

There is only one answer to this immigration fiasco and mess. It is time for a moratorium on all immigration and let's start to get our own house in order first and try to get people unemployed in Canada back to work first. Canadians do not need another 300,000 new legal and illegal immigrants/refugees every year to immigrate to Canada anymore. We have enough already. What the hell is the matter with Canadians like you anyway who just refuse to try and do or say anything about what should be really done? We have an immigration problem. It is now time to do something about it and solve it. Not just keep sitting on our asses and keep talking about it over and over and over again. Close the bloody border gates now. Works for me. 

[ZavHoz]

8 hours ago, Argus said:

Maybe you and Trump would like to consider that US immigrants have a lower unemployment rate and higher earnings than American born people. Canadian immigrants, meanwhile, have a higher unemployment rate and lower earnings than Canadian born people.

Who said that? Or it's just your wet fantasies?

[ZavHoz]

7 hours ago, turningrite said:

Or maybe you're a troll?

I'm definately a troll. The problem is ... can you think or not...

[ZavHoz]

8 hours ago, Argus said:

No, you can't.

I haven't been banned in Google unlike you 

https://www.google.ca/search?q=ircc+funding+2018&oq=ircc+funding&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.7108j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[ZavHoz]

7 hours ago, turningrite said:

Canadians who were born into the generation born following, say, 1940 or 1950 (take your pick), actually paid taxes into the system to help fund the kind of services, like pensions and health care, they expect(ed) to receive in old age. It's called the "social contract" model. The most recent generation of immigrants has, conversely, become a benefits drain and yet will expect and likely receive the same benefits as prior generations of taxpayers. This illustrates a clear deficiency and inequity in Canada's approach to immigration. And it's likely not sustainable and will lead to increasingly inferior benefits for everybody, including both those who have been net contributors to the system and those who haven't.

If you think you have brains then please apply them to come up with a more coherent analysis.

What's that? Have you yourself created this term? Like trump? I guess you suffer from the same dimentia, no?

What benefits?

Two sheets ago in this very topic I already caught one idiot who tried to claim that he could calculate the pros and cons of a particular immigrant. And you're a supermind. You've calculated the whole generation. I hope psycatrists will honor your contribution to "science".

[ZavHoz]

8 hours ago, Argus said:

I was thinking your posts show either a poor grasp of English or some kind of cognitive difficulty.

I think that my posts show a good grasp on idiots 

[Argus]

 

20 minutes ago, ZavHoz said:

I think that my posts show a good grasp on idiots 

Only 6 posts and I already think you're such a worthless waste of time I'm I'm putting you into my ignore filter.

[ZavHoz]

8 hours ago, turningrite said:

This is a point that isn't often addressed. I recently read an analysis indicating that U.S. immigrants who've arrived in that country over the past couple decades are in fact net contributors to the tax base. This contrasts with the opposite situation in Canada. The big problem here, of course, is the extension of benefits to virtually all classes of migrants, including refugees and sponsored immigrants, in comparison to much more constricted access in the U.S. to public supports. How this might be remedied is a matter of controversy. I believe Australia's extensive study of its immigration programs addressed the issue of immigrant dependency and some countries in Europe have grappled with it as well. I think the best solution might be to transform Canada's so-called "universal" access model to a contributory one, granting eligibility credit both for years of residency as well as actual contributions into the system. Otherwise, we'll experience continuously declining public services, as we're already seeing with health care, and an expanding dependent class that's increasingly reliant on layered subsidies. At some point, taxpayers will revolt at this arrangement, particularly if they sense they can't or won't benefit from it.

Who uses the health system more? Young immigrants or old Canadians?

[ZavHoz]

7 hours ago, Argus said:

In 2015, Statistics Canada found immigrants admitted to Canada for economic reasons, including skilled workers, earned a median annual income of $42,000, according to 2012 tax filings.

In comparison, immigrants admitted as refugees or for family reunification earned a median income of $28,000 per year.

Median after-tax income for a Canadian family of two or more was $71,100, according to StatsCan.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/immigration-employment-canada-1.3831468

Who were those immigrants? If you compare the income of a first year immigrant to a first year employed Canadian, I bet you won't see the difference. Why? Because Canadian employers don't give a fuck about your foreign experience. So, you have to start your career over again.

[ZavHoz]

7 hours ago, taxme said:

There is only one answer to this immigration fiasco and mess. It is time for a moratorium on all immigration and let's start to get our own house in order first and try to get people unemployed in Canada back to work first. Canadians do not need another 300,000 new legal and illegal immigrants/refugees every year to immigrate to Canada anymore. We have enough already. What the hell is the matter with Canadians like you anyway who just refuse to try and do or say anything about what should be really done? We have an immigration problem. It is now time to do something about it and solve it. Not just keep sitting on our asses and keep talking about it over and over and over again. Close the bloody border gates now. Works for me. 

Who will pay for your healthcare when you become old? Martians?

Hint: immigrants. Why? Because you don't have enough children. Sorry.

[ZavHoz]

7 hours ago, taxme said:

And things will only get worse as we keep bringing in many different races and with them their cultures where eventually there will be numerous tribal ghettoes being set up every where in Canada. It is just a matter of time. 

Ghettos? Like it has been since the arrival of the first immigrants here? What a nightmare? Canadians live in this nightmare for centuries? You need to stop this!!! Stop Canada to exist!!!

Btw, there is no other culture than law-abiding citizens. Sorry... If you wear burka, who fuckin cares? If you pay taxes and abide the law...