California Judge Rules In Favor Of Christian

[Omni]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

I hate to disappoint you but your life is not your own.  It belong to God and he will decide when it ends, whether you believe it or not.  You are also not your own authority in many ways and never have been.  When you grew up your mother or parents, whatever the case, decided many things for you and had some authority over you.  You are required to obey the laws of the land and cannot do whatever you please.  So no you are not your own boss in many ways.  You are under authorities.

Well I hat to disappoint you, but my life is no ones but mine and I will certainly try to be a party to decide when it ends. If I have a heart attack or forget to look both ways and step in front of a bus well that's the way the world goes round. And of course parents (hopefully) do parental duties. Then you grow up and move on and become responsible for yourself. I'm not sure what your reference to my abiding by, let's say, the speed limit on the road has anything to do with god?  

[Hal 9000]

58 minutes ago, Omni said:

Well I hat to disappoint you, but my life is no ones but mine and I will certainly try to be a party to decide when it ends. If I have a heart attack or forget to look both ways and step in front of a bus well that's the way the world goes round. And of course parents (hopefully) do parental duties. Then you grow up and move on and become responsible for yourself. I'm not sure what your reference to my abiding by, let's say, the speed limit on the road has anything to do with god?  

For now.

[betsy]

15 hours ago, Goddess said:

But, F*$@K everyone else's consciences?

I don't believe religious rights should trump human rights. 

We're talking about a court ruling.  Hello?

How is that affecting others' conscience?  

Do you understand - or, do you have any idea at all, what a conscience is?  Maybe I'm not seeing it from your angle - care to explain how that affects others' conscience.

 

What human right are you on about?  You mean the "human right" to force someone to do as you please?   Because you "believe" it's how it should be?   

 

Wakey-wakey.  This isn't about YOU! 

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

6 hours ago, Omni said:

Well you can think what you want, but you have no way to support that. I wonder why you think they would do that. Maybe they just wanted a damn cake so they went to a cake store. Why would they bother to go somewhere they thought they might be denied? Makes absolutely zero sense.

No it's not nonsense!  It's a form of entrapment. 

The baker explained his position.  What's the big deal about going away, and finding another baker? 

This baker even gave a referral of his competition who acommodate SS weddings.

Edited March 3, 2018 by betsy

[Michael Hardner]

10 hours ago, bcsapper said:

You would insist a Muslim baker put Muhammad on your birthday cake?  You're brutal!  I had no idea...

You would insist a logician put this on your analogy cake ?

[Michael Hardner]

10 hours ago, Omni said:

Sure. Wouldn't be a problem.

You took the cake bait... not a real analogy.  No employer can or should force you to go against conscience, and that's a clear and ridiculous case.  Making cakes for gay people isn't a sin.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You would insist a logician put this on your analogy cake ?

 

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You took the cake bait... not a real analogy.  No employer can or should force you to go against conscience, and that's a clear and ridiculous case.  Making cakes for gay people isn't a sin.

But wasn't the issue one of having them design a cake?  Obviously, I'm not going back and reading it all again, but weren't they perfectly happy to provide the cake, just not happy to create and put a design on it that they felt went against their beliefs?

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by bcsapper

[Guest]

10 hours ago, blackbird said:

Doctors have an assortment of medications they use today to make patients last days be as comfortable as possible.  There are professionals who are experienced and know all about these things.  

This is all true, but in the end it comes down to choice.

Person A wants to die.

Medical professional A wants to help them.

Everyone else in the world, no say in the matter.

At least, that's how it should be.

[Michael Hardner]

36 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

 

But wasn't the issue one of having them design a cake?  Obviously, I'm not going back and reading it all again, but weren't they perfectly happy to provide the cake, just not happy to create and put a design on it that they felt went against their beliefs?

 

It's not about cake, it's about religious rights.  It's pretty clear, as I believe at least, that you aren't supposed to make images of the Prophet in Islam but there's nothing wrong with doing things for sinners in Christianity.

 

If one can't agree on the analogies when discussing these things with people then maybe it's a non-starter to discuss.

[betsy]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

 Making cakes for gay people isn't a sin.

Correction.  That's not quite true.   You're not getting it. Concentrate, MH.  Focus:

 

 

If a gay person asks a baker to bake a birthday cake for him, I don't think a Christian would refuse to.

But, making cakes that celebrate the union of a gay couple, is another story.

 

I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.

 

Anyway, what isn't a sin to you......may be considered  a sin by the baker. 

You don't have any authority to dictate to anyone what they should or shouldn't see as a sin (after all, you lack knowledge of the Scriptures in the first place)....and, most importantly,  I think you don't believe Jesus Christ is who He claims to be, according to the Scriptures.   You and the baker aren't on the same page, so to speak.

Edited March 3, 2018 by betsy

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

It's not about cake, it's about religious rights.  It's pretty clear, as I believe at least, that you aren't supposed to make images of the Prophet in Islam but there's nothing wrong with doing things for sinners in Christianity.

 

If one can't agree on the analogies when discussing these things with people then maybe it's a non-starter to discuss.

Like I said, they were more than willing to provide the cake (doing things for sinners).

They weren't willing to perform a creative act celebrating something they believe their religion proscribes.

The analogy might be a bit sledgehammerish, but it stands.  Youre argument against it, not so much.

[Michael Hardner]

Correction: Make cakes that celebrate a union... is not a sin.

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, bcsapper said:

1. They weren't willing to perform a creative act celebrating something they believe their religion proscribes.

2. The analogy might be a bit sledgehammerish, but it stands.  Youre argument against it, not so much.

1. It proscribes these things for people in the religion.  Meat on Friday anyone ?

2. With the adjustment, you're right, it makes more sense to me.

[betsy]

57 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

 

But wasn't the issue one of having them design a cake?  Obviously, I'm not going back and reading it all again, but weren't they perfectly happy to provide the cake, just not happy to create and put a design on it that they felt went against their beliefs?

 

Yes.  Artistry is ruled as a form of expression - so the baker has the right not to express anything that goes against his religious belief.

MH is wrong.  It is about both - expression and belief.

[betsy]

13 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Correction: Make cakes that celebrate a union... is not a sin.

Maybe to you, it isn't. 

Hey....you're free to believe what you want.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by betsy

[Michael Hardner]

Exactly "to you", as in "I get to define sin".

You don't.  Otherwise I could make not squirting chocolate sauce on your blouse a sin.  And I would.

[Omni]

44 minutes ago, betsy said:

Correction.  That's not quite true.   You're not getting it. Concentrate, MH.  Focus:

 

 

If a gay person asks a baker to bake a birthday cake for him, I don't think a Christian would refuse to.

But, making cakes that celebrate the union of a gay couple, is another story.

 

I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.

 

Anyway, what isn't a sin to you......may be considered  a sin by the baker. 

You don't have any authority to dictate to anyone what they should or shouldn't see as a sin (after all, you lack knowledge of the Scriptures in the first place)....and, most importantly,  I think you don't believe Jesus Christ is who He claims to be, according to the Scriptures.   You and the baker aren't on the same page, so to speak.

One doesn't need to focus at all on what is an obvious attempt to deflect. I don't suppose a person walking into a bakery to ask for a birthday cake bothers to inform the baker of their sexual orientation. Perhaps if they did in the example you suggest, this baker would refuse. Bottom line is freedom of sexual orientation is protected by law in this country. If your religiosity causes you to discriminate against someone due to their sexual orientation, you're in contravention.   

[Hal 9000]

35 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Exactly "to you", as in "I get to define sin".

You don't.  Otherwise I could make not squirting chocolate sauce on your blouse a sin.  And I would.

It doesn't have to be a sin for a person to not want to create it.  It wouldn't be a sin for a Jewish baker to design a Hitler cake, but it would be offensive to the baker.  And, knowing that, most people (even Nazis) wouldn't stoop to insisting.  The gays however,...would.

[Hal 9000]

8 minutes ago, Omni said:

One doesn't need to focus at all on what is an obvious attempt to deflect. I don't suppose a person walking into a bakery to ask for a birthday cake bothers to inform the baker of their sexual orientation. Perhaps if they did in the example you suggest, this baker would refuse. Bottom line is freedom of sexual orientation is protected by law in this country. If your religiosity causes you to discriminate against someone due to their sexual orientation, you're in contravention.   

If someone who is clearly gay walks in and asks for a birthday cake, they would leave with a birthday cake.  That fact has already been established by every baker currently facing the wrath of the gays.

[Omni]

1 minute ago, Hal 9000 said:

If someone who is clearly gay walks in and asks for a birthday cake, they would leave with a birthday cake.  That fact has already been established by every baker currently facing the wrath of the gays.

OK. If YOU say so.

[Omni]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You took the cake bait... not a real analogy.  No employer can or should force you to go against conscience, and that's a clear and ridiculous case.  Making cakes for gay people isn't a sin.

If I owned a bake shop I think I would bake a Muhammad cake and display it front and center in my shop window, and hope a gay Muslim would come in to buy it. 

[betsy]

1 hour ago, Omni said:

One doesn't need to focus at all on what is an obvious attempt to deflect. I don't suppose a person walking into a bakery to ask for a birthday cake bothers to inform the baker of their sexual orientation. Perhaps if they did in the example you suggest, this baker would refuse. Bottom line is freedom of sexual orientation is protected by law in this country. If your religiosity causes you to discriminate against someone due to their sexual orientation, you're in contravention.   

No one is preventing them to be gay - therefore, nothing tampers to their freedom to be what they are.   Therefore, your "bottom line," is irrelevant.

 

Right now, this court had ruled in favor of the Christian.  In this case, the person's constitutional right to practice his religion, is upheld and protected.

Edited March 3, 2018 by betsy

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Omni said:

If I owned a bake shop I think I would bake a Muhammad cake and display it front and center in my shop window, and hope a gay Muslim would come in to buy it. 

This is why you don't own a bake shop.  The point of a bake shop is not to show Muslims your glorious personal beliefs but to sell baked goods.

[?Impact]

Who wants cake?

[betsy]

On 3/3/2018 at 1:58 AM, Omni said:

Well I hat to disappoint you, but my life is no ones but mine and I will certainly try to be a party to decide when it ends. If I have a heart attack or forget to look both ways and step in front of a bus well that's the way the world goes round. And of course parents (hopefully) do parental duties. Then you grow up and move on and become responsible for yourself. I'm not sure what your reference to my abiding by, let's say, the speed limit on the road has anything to do with god?  

 

 

Your life is not yours.  You can only imagine, or fool yourself into believing you have a say when it ends, and could even plan ahead for it (like giving don't resuscitate instructions, etc).   Some folks can't even get themselves dead by suicide!

 

Quote

“It was just before Thanksgiving when my son put a shotgun under his chin and pulled the trigger. He survived but the blast obliterated his face.” Judith Casey, author of the book, Face to Face, wrote the unimaginable.

https://www.dorriolds.com/face-to-face-—-a-mothers-story-of-her-sons-attempted-suicide/

 

 

Quote

 

Dad-of-two left paralysed, brain damaged and unable to speak after failed suicide bid

Jai Sharkey tried to hang himself but was discovered by a friend who had called in to check on him

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dad-two-left-paralysed-brain-9743705

 

 

 

You'll be dead only because God has allowed it.

Edited March 4, 2018 by betsy