Is your city on a road diet?

[GostHacked]

On 12/15/2017 at 11:54 AM, Bonam said:

Anti-road people genuinely believe that gridlock is not worsened by reducing road capacity, nor can it be improved by increasing road capacity. I've talked to plenty of them. They say with a straight face that no matter how much you increase road capacity, you'll always have gridlock, so you may as well decrease road capacity instead. The problem is, like with anything else in 2017, ideology comes before reality. 

I think this comes down to how people drive,  or how a good deal of people cannot drive.  Also one single accident on the 417 can bring everything to a stand still. I get into close to 3 accidents a day because of idiots, and when I call them out, I get flipped off. Awesome.

But for Ottawa, it's the LRT that is really fucking things up. Yes some pains need to happen to get it up and running. But because of the bus runs now, I can no longer exit or enter the 417 in certain areas.  For Eastbound, I cannot get on the hiway at Lees, or St. Laruent. Nor can I jump on the 416 and then to Orleans because that is blocked because of the bus lanes. 

The 416/417 merge going Westbound is also fucked.  They extended the right lane (should have done both lanes all the way through) and people want to move over to the right to get on to Vanier so they can double back to St Laurent area. \

Also try going downtown just as you get to Lees. Buses and cars backed up onto the hiway slowing my pass through to the west end.

[GostHacked]

On 12/15/2017 at 2:50 PM, ?Impact said:

Street calming is trying to address the excessive speeding that kills on city streets. Bicycle lanes take a very small fraction of real-estate, perhaps the single occupancy vehicle crown feels too entitled and anyone else that uses public spaces are the enemy.

Roads are public spaces, why do single occupancy vehicle drivers feel entitled to 110% of the real-estate?

Bullshit, the bike lanes take up a good deal of real-estate on the roads. I cannot stand driving downtown because of it. The real useless implementation of bike lanes is around O'connor , South of the 417.

When you buy a car, and gas your taxes paid on those items pay for that road infrastructure.  Better off to build isolated bike lanes when you can, otherwise, ban bikes in certain areas period.

Edited December 17, 2017 by GostHacked

[?Impact]

20 hours ago, Argus said:

small plows usually have treads, not tires

It is about 50/50 in Montreal these days, and the treads are rubber not heavy equipment (tanks or bulldozer) treads.

3 hours ago, GostHacked said:

When you buy a car, and gas your taxes paid on those items pay for that road infrastructure.

Nope, city infrastructure is paid for by property taxes and the single occupancy vehicle drivers have 10-50 times the use of what bicycles use at the same price. The bicycle drivers are subsidizing your wasteful ways by a long shot.

[Bonam]

8 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Nope, city infrastructure is paid for by property taxes and the single occupancy vehicle drivers have 10-50 times the use of what bicycles use at the same price. The bicycle drivers are subsidizing your wasteful ways by a long shot.

Wrong way to think about it. Most people have both cars and bicycles, and use both on various occasions. Almost all cyclists also have cars, and also make uses of roads in those cars, as well as on buses, as pedestrians, buy goods that are delivered to stores on trucks that drive on the roads, etc. Roads are a fundamental necessity for cities (especially North American ones) to work, and single occupant vehicles are one of only many types of uses that roads get. Improving road infrastructure to reduce congestion and travel times improves the economic and social activity of a city and even reduces pollution. Bike lanes are certainly an important piece of city infrastructure, one that I agree that should be expanded in many North American cities, but any infrastructure improvement should be driven by a rational and pragmatic analysis of what works and what doesn't work, rather than being ideologically motivated out of hatred for some modes of transportation and love of others. 

In particular, when it comes to "road diets", I believe that cities should only consider reducing road capacity if and when convenient and fast alternative transit options are available. Buses generally do not do the job, they are slow and inconvenient. For any medium or large sized city, the only currently viable transit alternative is a metro/subway system that is primarily underground. Stations should serve all neighborhoods of a city and never be more than a 15 minute walk from any location in the city. Once that metric is satisfied, diet away. 

Edited December 17, 2017 by Bonam

[Argus]

7 hours ago, GostHacked said:

But for Ottawa, it's the LRT that is really fucking things up.

Ottawa public transit got screwed up decades ago, by the transitway. It was supposed to make buses faster. It didn't. It just made them way more expensive. Before, the transit service didn't have to maintain a thing other than their own garage and buses. The city plowed the roads and sidewalks. Now we have separate bus roads that have to be plowed and lit, and all these big stations that have to be shoveled out and maintained. Massive cost increase, which meant massive increase for fares, as well as massive increases to subsidies, which translated into fewer routes running less often and more transfers. Now this freaking expensive LRT which will eat up God only knows how much money but it sure as hell will never come close to being able  pay for its own operations never mind the construction bill.

[Bonam]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Ottawa public transit got screwed up decades ago, by the transitway. It was supposed to make buses faster. It didn't. It just made them way more expensive. Before, the transit service didn't have to maintain a thing other than their own garage and buses. The city plowed the roads and sidewalks. Now we have separate bus roads that have to be plowed and lit, and all these big stations that have to be shoveled out and maintained. Massive cost increase, which meant massive increase for fares, as well as massive increases to subsidies, which translated into fewer routes running less often and more transfers. Now this freaking expensive LRT which will eat up God only knows how much money but it sure as hell will never come close to being able  pay for its own operations never mind the construction bill.

Trust me, Ottawa is getting a great deal by 2017 standards. Seattle just approved light rail construction that will cost over 10x as much ($54 billion USD) and take about 5x longer (25 years) to build (i.e. will never get built but $50 billion will be wasted until that realization is made). 

[Argus]

15 hours ago, Bonam said:

Trust me, Ottawa is getting a great deal by 2017 standards. Seattle just approved light rail construction that will cost over 10x as much ($54 billion USD) and take about 5x longer (25 years) to build (i.e. will never get built but $50 billion will be wasted until that realization is made). 

I wonder if any of these transit planners are taking into consideration what self-driving cars are going to do to their customer base in ten or fifteen years. If you can sleep on the ride to work, or watch TV, and then just step out of the car and have it go home, why take the bus or train? Especially when the car is almost certainly faster. It'll likely be an electrical car too, so no gas charges.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Argus

[?Impact]

19 hours ago, Argus said:

Before, the transit service didn't have to maintain a thing other than their own garage and buses.

Other cities have subways to maintain, I see the transitway as an alternative to a subway. Is it more or less expensive to maintain?

Do you have any empirical data to support the notion that buses are no faster one the transitway than on regular roads? That of course would be during rush hours, not off peak hours which is meaningless.

[Bonam]

15 hours ago, Argus said:

I wonder if any of these transit planners are taking into consideration what self-driving cars are going to do to their customer base in ten or fifteen years.

Doubt it. That said, when it comes to the US, there probably isn't much overlap. There's a very strong class divide when it comes to transit use, unlike in Canada or Europe. Poor people take transit, upper middle class people (and higher) do not. So mostly anyone who will be able to buy a new self-driving car in the next 10-15 years never takes transit anyway. 

Quote

If you can sleep on the ride to work, or watch TV, and then just step out of the car and have it go home, why take the bus or train? Especially when the car is almost certainly faster. It'll likely be an electrical car too, so no gas charges.

Well, if they kill enough car lanes, then even self-driving cars would be stuck in traffic. There's a physical limit to how many cars per hour can travel through any given lane. 

[GostHacked]

On 12/17/2017 at 7:11 PM, Argus said:

Ottawa public transit got screwed up decades ago, by the transitway. It was supposed to make buses faster. It didn't. It just made them way more expensive. Before, the transit service didn't have to maintain a thing other than their own garage and buses. The city plowed the roads and sidewalks. Now we have separate bus roads that have to be plowed and lit, and all these big stations that have to be shoveled out and maintained. Massive cost increase, which meant massive increase for fares, as well as massive increases to subsidies, which translated into fewer routes running less often and more transfers. Now this freaking expensive LRT which will eat up God only knows how much money but it sure as hell will never come close to being able  pay for its own operations never mind the construction bill.

Well, if that transit way was not there, then putting in the LRT would have been more a lot more expensive because it would have to all go underground. And you'll be spending money anyways if you want dedicated bus lanes.

[?Impact]

On 12/19/2017 at 3:43 AM, Bonam said:

Doubt it. That said, when it comes to the US, there probably isn't much overlap. There's a very strong class divide when it comes to transit use, unlike in Canada or Europe. Poor people take transit, upper middle class people (and higher) do not. So mostly anyone who will be able to buy a new self-driving car in the next 10-15 years never takes transit anyway.

Yes, it all comes down to dollars. It is TAXIs and Uber/Lyft drivers that will be out of work, some billionaire will buy the cars and undercut them by a small percentage.

[PIK]

On 12/15/2017 at 11:02 AM, Argus said:

I first heard of this in an issue of the New York Post, which I kind of dismissed because, well, its the Post. They accused the city of deliberately slowing down traffic in Manhattan in order to deter people from driving in and make them use public transit or bicycles. Of course the city denied it. And of course, Canadian cities never say they're doing this either. But from reading the papers over the last some years it looks evident to me that while they're denying it they're certainly doing it.  Street calming and bicycle lanes proliferate. In Ottawa, a number of streets have had their lanes cut, with Scott Street being the next to go - to make way for more bike lanes. The city is putting a lot of money into its new LRT system and it seems to me they're actively trying to make it harder to commute any other way. Of course, they deny it, but then, city politicians are rarely very honest. If they actually told people, most of whom commute by car "Yeah, we're trying to make your commute longer and more unpleasant to force you to take public transit" people would be furious. 

But city governments are notoriously Left wing. Left wingers ALWAYS know what's best for the rest of us, and are always determined to see we do it, like it or not. Since they lie to themselves they have no moral qualms in lying to the rest of us. 

It's for our own good, after all.

http://business.financialpost.com/opinion/lawrence-solomon-how-road-diets-are-making-our-car-commutes-even-more-painful

What really is sickening, is the fact they plow the snow off of bike lanes 1st in ottawa and people send in photos all the time about it. Can't walk or drive but can I take my bike.

Edited January 3, 2018 by PIK

[Bonam]

30 minutes ago, PIK said:

What really is sickening, is the fact they plow the snow off of bike lanes 1st in ottawa and people send in photos all the time about it. Can't walk or drive but can I take my bike.

Hmm, not sure it's that sickening. Walking on snow is not hard unless the hill is quite steep. Oftentimes, a snowcovered sidewalk is much easier to walk on anyway compared to one that's been scraped but has compact icy patches left. And cars can drive on snow with chains or winter tires quite well, compared to bikes that really can't handle snow at all. That said, I assume relatively few people are biking in the winter anyway. 

[Gingerteeth]

We should be cutting down roads in cities to reduce congestion and encourage transit use. The car makes zero sense in cities like Vancouver.

[PIK]

38 minutes ago, Bonam said:

Hmm, not sure it's that sickening. Walking on snow is not hard unless the hill is quite steep. Oftentimes, a snowcovered sidewalk is much easier to walk on anyway compared to one that's been scraped but has compact icy patches left. And cars can drive on snow with chains or winter tires quite well, compared to bikes that really can't handle snow at all. That said, I assume relatively few people are biking in the winter anyway. 

Tell that to the elderly, they can at least see the ice. And where are chains legal? And don't say the ice roads.lol

Edited January 3, 2018 by PIK

[Bonam]

40 minutes ago, PIK said:

Tell that to the elderly, they can at least see the ice. And where are chains legal? And don't say the ice roads.lol

Don't think I've ever been anywhere where they're not legal. In fact, having chains with you or on your tires is required in many areas I drive in in winter. 

[?Impact]

3 hours ago, PIK said:

What really is sickening, is the fact they plow the snow off of bike lanes 1st in ottawa and people send in photos all the time about it. Can't walk or drive but can I take my bike.

What is really sickening is the entitled attitude of drivers who think they should have their roadway plowed first. I don't see cyclists posting photos of a roadway that is plowed before a bike lane and crying like a little schoolgirl who didn't get the biggest piece of cake. Only the selfish, self entitled, single occupancy vehicle, environment disasters are the ones that act like that.

[herples]

Transit planning is pretty poor in North America compared to Europe.

[GostHacked]

On 1/3/2018 at 3:21 PM, Bonam said:

Hmm, not sure it's that sickening. Walking on snow is not hard unless the hill is quite steep. Oftentimes, a snowcovered sidewalk is much easier to walk on anyway compared to one that's been scraped but has compact icy patches left. And cars can drive on snow with chains or winter tires quite well, compared to bikes that really can't handle snow at all. That said, I assume relatively few people are biking in the winter anyway. 

In Ottawa, the bikers are year round, and there is a good number of them.

[GostHacked]

On 1/3/2018 at 6:44 PM, ?Impact said:

What is really sickening is the entitled attitude of drivers who think they should have their roadway plowed first. I don't see cyclists posting photos of a roadway that is plowed before a bike lane and crying like a little schoolgirl who didn't get the biggest piece of cake. Only the selfish, self entitled, single occupancy vehicle, environment disasters are the ones that act like that.

Roads should be plowed first. How do you think things move around in a city?

[Thinkinoutsidethebox]

Cheap autonomous vehicles would increase city traffic tenfold. Think about it, everybody from birth to death will be able to ride in these things along with delivering everything from kids to lunch to papers to diapers. Want to go shopping? Send it traveling around the block with your junk while your in the store. Baby's crying? Send it off for a soothing ride around town while you monitor it from the comfort of your couch. Don't feel like cooking? Feeling romantic? Need that widget? Need to show someone something across town? This is the tip of the iceberg. 

[taxme]

On 1/3/2018 at 12:33 PM, Gingerteeth said:

We should be cutting down roads in cities to reduce congestion and encourage transit use. The car makes zero sense in cities like Vancouver.

You must be a supporter and an admirer of Vancouver Mayor Mr. bike lane man Robertson, eh? So, do these people create any tax revenue for Vancouver or wherever else in Canada? Do they have to pay a tax for using those bike lanes? I know that as a vehicle user I have to pay some of my taxes to go towards roads and help create more bike lanes for others to use. I never use them. I drive a car. 

Maybe what is needed is what they do in Montreal. When I lived there I had to buy a licence plate for my bike to help pay for and fight against bicycle theft. It was the law that all bikes had to have a licence plate on them. If these bikers want more bike lanes to be built then force them to pay for them, plus help against bicycle theft, and force those bikers to have to put licence plates on their bikes. I wonder how many of them will like that idea? I am surprised that Mr. bike man Robertson has not thought about doing something like that? 

It maybe be zero sense to you but there are people who actually live in Vancouver that do drive their cars to work. They have paid enough taxes already for those roads so why should they not be able to drive to work on the streets of Vancouver that they paid for already? It can't be all about the bicycle people. They both have to learn to share the road together now. If the bikers do not like it then walk too work or play. The one thing that I have noticed about many of these bicycle people is that they are the biggest violators when it comes to the rules of the roads. Red lights and stop signs mean nothing to some of them. They are just a nuisance. 

[jbg]

New York City does everything it can to make motorists miserable.

[Machjo]

On 12/15/2017 at 11:54 AM, Bonam said:

Anti-road people genuinely believe that gridlock is not worsened by reducing road capacity, nor can it be improved by increasing road capacity. I've talked to plenty of them. They say with a straight face that no matter how much you increase road capacity, you'll always have gridlock, so you may as well decrease road capacity instead. The problem is, like with anything else in 2017, ideology comes before reality. 

There actually is some truth to that. For example, if a highway between downtown and a suburb experiences constant gridlock, that might encourage more people to move downtown and more businesses to move to the suburb to circumvent it. Some might even turn to tele-commuting. If you build another highway, it might reduce gridlock in the short term but will also encourage more people to move to the suburbs and reduce the incentive for businesses to move there too. As a result, the suburb grows and the gridlock returns. It's a question of whether we're looking for a short-term or long-term solution. Strangely, I found communiting in Hong Kong of all palces more convenient than anywhere else I've been to on my travels. I think the reason is that its city planner encourage small CBds stattered throughout the city with one within reasonable walking distance of anywhere.