The Price of Being Canadian

August1991 · July 22, 2017

Canada's population is about 35 million and every year, we add about 400,000 to that number: about 150,000 from births over deaths and about 250,000 net migration (we in fact receive about 300,000 immigrants each year but lose about 50,000 through emigration).

You can quibble with these migration numbers: I reckon that we under-count both immigrants and emigrants but the net migration is probably close to 250,000. But quibbles aside, Canada is a large, cold country: We could accept more. We have space (and true, most of it is on places like Baffin Island.)

In 2017, there are some 7 billion people in the world. Who should we accept? Who gets in? When Justin Trudeau announced that we would accept 30,000 Syrian refugees, the selection was narrowed to families, or single women.

More fundamentally, who gets to say: "I am Canadian." Should people born in Canada - by that fact alone - be "Canadian"? Well, in this 21st century world where a person born supposedly male can transmute to their true female self, what is "male"?

By that logic, if you have a Canadian passport, you are a Canadian. But now birth certificates don't identify whether the child is female or male; imagine a Canadian passport that doesn't identify the holder as a Canadian. (In fact, such a document exists.)

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Soon (within a few decades) I suspect, governments will adopt a "head tax" definition of citizenship. If you pay at least a "fixed tax" in a jurisdiction, the jurisdiction will recognize you as a citizen.

I was thinking about this while hiking in Germany recently and I saw a few cars with Norwegian plates drive by me. (Norway is certainly not part of Schengen; it is not even a member of the EU. Norway is the classic limousine liberal, or lutheran practical.)

I became more convinced when, dirty/sweaty, I presented my passport, my credit card and iPhone screen of the reservation at the local landhotel. It was the credit card that carried the most weight.

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To be Canadian, I think everyone, every year, should pay two taxes: one tax to the federal Canadian government and another tax to the provincial government of their residence.

There should be no exceptions; everyone should pay. It should be like election day where you put your finger in purple ink and show that you voted, and show also that you paid the price of being Canadian.

CITIZEN_2015 · July 22, 2017

Anybody who is a Canadian citizen and is living in Canada and is a tax payer is a Canadian regardless whether she or he is born here or the color of skin or national origin and must enjoy equal rights and with rights also comes responsibility like respect for other races and religions and especially respect for women. That said I would prefer to see more European immigrants and South Americans and even South East Asians rather than from Middle East, Africa and India/Pakistan because of cultural compatibility the former groups being more compatible and not skin color.

Edited July 22, 2017 by CITIZEN_2015

Argus · July 22, 2017

43 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Anybody who is a Canadian citizen and is living in Canada and is a tax payer is a Canadian

What if you aren't a taxpayer?

Wilber · July 22, 2017

Thatcher tried a poll tax and it went over like a lead balloon. Citizenship has to be portable but I do favour limits on non residency for things like benefits and voting privileges.

Argus · July 22, 2017

3 hours ago, Wilber said:

Thatcher tried a poll tax and it went over like a lead balloon. Citizenship has to be portable but I do favour limits on non residency for things like benefits and voting privileges.

If citizenship brings benefits, and it clearly does, should it not bring responsibilities? You are a member of this society but bear no responsibility for its upkeep?

Some will say, well, your only responsibility is to obey the law, but we require that and punish you if you fail. We won't let you not follow the law. Surely there has to be something more to the responsibility of citizenship than that.

What do we require of immigrants? Nothing. Not even loyalty. They are guaranteed all the benefits, but needn't even promise to live here.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Argus

Wilber · July 22, 2017

There is no requirement for any citizen to live here nor should there be. Loyalty is a very subjective thing. I see a lot of Canadian born citizens that I wouldn't consider particularly loyal. On this forum even. As far as benefits go, it depends on what you mean. If you mean state provided financial benefits and voting rights when living abroad for extended periods, I certainly agree.

CITIZEN_2015 · July 22, 2017

4 hours ago, Argus said:

What if you aren't a taxpayer?

Well in my view we have t be selective on immigrant so that they pay back Canada in the long term with taxes they pay over the usual 35 working years or most of that. I know this does not happen with our current immigration policies but that is because it is not perfect.

Argus · July 23, 2017

19 hours ago, Wilber said:

There is no requirement for any citizen to live here nor should there be.

There most certainly should be for people who say they want to immigrate here. Why are do you want to be a Canadian if not to live here? Clearly just for the benefits. A lot of Hong Kong millionaires have their Canadian passports in their safes, ready as an escape clause in case the government decides to change the rules. They've never set foot here, can't speak the language, have never contributed anything, but want the protection of that passport.

19 hours ago, Wilber said:

Loyalty is a very subjective thing. I see a lot of Canadian born citizens that I wouldn't consider particularly loyal. On this forum even.

Sure. And we have child molesters, too. Is that a reason why we shouldn't exclude child molesters from becoming Canadian citizens?

19 hours ago, Wilber said:

As far as benefits go, it depends on what you mean. If you mean state provided financial benefits and voting rights when living abroad for extended periods, I certainly agree.

There are many benefits. Yes, pension being one of them, even if you never contributed or worked. The fifty thousand "Canadians" who demanded we fetch them out of Lebanon when things started going to hell are another example. But in a general sense, you benefit from all this society offers you, from a peaceful, safe community, to roads, highways and bridges, airports, train stations, hospitals and schools. And if you have no responsibility to contribute anything back that seems to me to be a pretty damned one-sided relationship.

Argus · July 23, 2017

19 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Well in my view we have t be selective on immigrant so that they pay back Canada in the long term with taxes they pay over the usual 35 working years or most of that. I know this does not happen with our current immigration policies but that is because it is not perfect.

But what about people who are born here, grow up here, but never pay any taxes?

CITIZEN_2015 · July 23, 2017

16 minutes ago, Argus said:

But what about people who are born here, grow up here, but never pay any taxes?

Well depends why they don't. If tax evasion is the reason then they are citizens but bad citizens, but if they didn't pay taxes because they were poor then still citizen but poor citizens, well then taxes from the poor should not be expected as tax system is based on everybody paying their FAIR share. My comment was directed towards those who come here to contribute positively but somehow regard Canada as a charity and apply for social assistant and remain on it for many years or forever (to be on it for just a short time to settle but make up for it and contribute to tax system for a lifetime is okay but not more than a short time) .

When I came here in the 80's initially I paid very little tuition as tax payers paid my fees for several years as well free health care and I was student and not tax payer (no social assistance of any kind though) but later in the subsequent years I became a heavy tax payer and based on my calculations I have paid so far over half a million in taxes (income, sales tax and municipal combined) and will pay another half a million by the date I retire. This is how we should select immigrants in addition to cultural compatibility like respect for the rights and freedom of others and respect for women.

Edited July 23, 2017 by CITIZEN_2015

Argus · July 23, 2017

17 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Well depends why they don't. If tax evasion is the reason then they are citizens but bad citizens, but if they didn't pay taxes because they were poor then still citizen but poor citizens, well then taxes from the poor should not be expected as tax system is based on everybody paying their FAIR share.

Yes, but at what point did we decide that your fair share for living here and enjoying all the benefits of life in Canada was zero? Recall that one third of Canadians do not pay income taxes. In most cases they get their sales taxes refunded, too.

CITIZEN_2015 · July 23, 2017

I think the cutoff line is there already (the personal exemption which I think is about $12000 and $17000 for seniors) and everyone above that should pay taxes though those close to these figures much less than those who earn six digits above. I am not sure that as much as one-third of Canadians don't pay any taxes. I would have guessed it is about 10 to 15% only who are low income earner making under $12000 annually.

cannuck · July 23, 2017

1 hour ago, Argus said:

in a general sense, you benefit from all this society offers you, from a peaceful, safe community, to roads, highways and bridges, airports, train stations, hospitals and schools. And if you have no responsibility to contribute anything back that seems to me to be a pretty damned one-sided relationship.

You just described the vast majority of our aboriginal population

Argus · July 23, 2017

2 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I think the cutoff line is there already (the personal exemption which I think is about $12000 and $17000 for seniors) and everyone above that should pay taxes though those close to these figures much less than those who earn six digits above. I am not sure that as much as one-third of Canadians don't pay any taxes. I would have guessed it is about 10 to 15% only who are low income earner making under $12000 annually.

There are other ways to lower your income than the personal exemption amount. Having kids, for example, will lower it much more. According to information and cites I've posted previously, in fact, 50% of the population is responsible for paying 94% of income taxes. The other 50% pays just 4%.

The_Squid · July 23, 2017

3 hours ago, Argus said:

Yes, but at what point did we decide that your fair share for living here and enjoying all the benefits of life in Canada was zero? Recall that one third of Canadians do not pay income taxes. In most cases they get their sales taxes refunded, too.

Didn't you work for the federal civil service? Your income came from people with a real job. You didn't actually generate ANY tax income for Canada.

August1991 · July 24, 2017

On 7/22/2017 at 0:03 PM, Wilber said:

Thatcher tried a poll tax and it went over like a lead balloon. Citizenship has to be portable but I do favour limits on non residency for things like benefits and voting privileges.

I suspect that a poll tax will be used in the future. It costs now about $150 to get a passport. Imagine that fee rising to $1500.

To live in Montreal, I have to pay property/school taxes of about $5000 annually. Imagine such property taxes doubling or tripling. IOW, imagine the price of citizenship as a condo fee.

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It amounts to a gated community. Welcome to Norway!

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"Citizenship has to be portable.... " Wilber, WTF?

Edited July 24, 2017 by August1991

Wilber · July 24, 2017

33 minutes ago, August1991 said:

"Citizenship has to be portable.... " Wilber, WTF?

People need mobility without having to put their citizenship at risk.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Wilber

August1991 · July 24, 2017

44 minutes ago, Wilber said:

People need mobility without having to put their citizenship at risk.

WTF?

I strongly, strongly disagree.

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To me (and I have thought about this and I may have even violated my rule), to be Canadian (in this modern world), you must pay taxes in Canada. And you must have a physical presence in Canada; I'd say, at least once every year. To clarify: To be Canadian, you must pay all taxes in Canada, and you must return to Canada at least once every year. Otherwise, you're not Canadian.

Wilber, I have a different view of being Canadian than Trudeau Snr - and certainly Trudeau Jnr.

Wilber · July 24, 2017

Are you speaking of two classes of citizens, born here and immigrants? Dual citizens and single citizens?

Edited July 24, 2017 by Wilber

Argus · July 24, 2017

21 hours ago, The_Squid said:

Didn't you work for the federal civil service?

No. And that's a tired and stupid cliche.

The_Squid · July 24, 2017

14 minutes ago, Argus said:

No.

So are you lying now, or were you lying when you posted this:

Quote

That was when I was a clerk and then assistant/acting manager for CRA.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/24151-education-over-expulsion-at-dalhousie/?do=findComment&comment=1020269

Argus · July 24, 2017

3 hours ago, The_Squid said:

So are you lying now, or were you lying when you posted this:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/24151-education-over-expulsion-at-dalhousie/?do=findComment&comment=1020269

My mistake. I read 'didn't' as 'don't. In my own defense, however, the majority of your posts are generally nothing more than one-line, off-topic sneers so hardly worth spending much time on.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Argus

Stan · July 24, 2017

On 2017-07-23 at 4:22 PM, The_Squid said:

Didn't you work for the federal civil service? Your income came from people with a real job. You didn't actually generate ANY tax income for Canada.

So if you are asked to work for the government providing services the public needs you add no value to the country? Seems like a strange point to make.

hot enough · July 24, 2017

51 minutes ago, Argus said:

My mistake. I read 'didn't' as 'don't. In my own defense, however, the majority of your posts are generally nothing more than one-line, off-topic sneers so hardly worth spending much time on.

Your mistake, which you only sought to obfuscate. Does the right always get defended by lies and obfuscation?

Goddess · July 24, 2017

34 minutes ago, Stan said:

So if you are asked to work for the government providing services the public needs you add no value to the country? Seems like a strange point to make.

It's a common tactic here. Take that football and run all the way down the field towards the opposite end zone, and then claim that's where the person's football went, all on its' own.

LOL :lol: