Myths about the US Government/constitution

[JamesHackerMP]

A lot of myths float around about the US government.  Even Americans are often incorrectly taught in grade school civics classes.  There are plenty of misconceptions that float around on Maple Leaf Web, I've noticed.  Here are a few I've heard from people outside, and even inside, the United States.  It's also 2:50 a.m. and I am totally bored, so I figured I'd float this.

1.  The federal government was designed to have three, co-equal branches of government that would check each other.

2.  The presidency was intended to be the most powerful figure in the federal government.

3.  The president wasn't intended to serve for life.

4.  The electoral college was invented to keep the "common man" out of government.

5.  If you were 21, white and male, you qualified to vote in 1789.

6.  Legislation was supposed to be a tug-of-war or compromise between the president and the Congress.

7.  The budget was also supposed to be the product of compromise between the president and congress.

8.  Washington's actions showed monarchical tendencies.

9.  The delegates to the convention (the framers) mostly owned slaves and were all upper class/bourgeois types.

10.  Presidential vetoes are final.

11.  The US government is a calculating, monolithic bloc.

12.  There is still a "spoils system" in the US bureaucracy.

13.  The supreme court was vested with the power to nullify laws.

14.  The constitution is pretty much written in stone (and our constitution is mostly written at all)

That;'s about all I can think of.  But if anyone wants to discuss this crap, I'm game.  You can read some of this in the Federalist Papers but I haven't met anyone who has read the whole thing who isn't a college professor.  It's also 2:45 a.m. and I'm bored.....so, anybody? A Canadian taught me that US history is taught a lot in Canada; I'm curious to know exactly what they teach on these subjects.  (In fact, on an almost-related note, an Aussie told me that more Australians are aware George Washington was the first POTUS than are aware that Edmund Barton was their first prime minister; so I'm guessing they teach some of this stuff in some countries outside of the US?)

[bush_cheney2004]

One aspect of this topic has been discussed before here on MLW, in that Canada could easily join the the United States as part of the Constitution.   Partially true, but only with regards to the original Articles of Confederation forged in the wake of revolutionary war against the hated British.   The mongrel American rebels had the audacity to invite Canadian colonies (Ontario and Quebec) to join the U.S. as the 14th state.   Such language did not survive into the final U.S. Constitution.

 

Quote

Article XI of the Articles of Confederation:

“Canada acceding to this confederation, and adjoining in the measures of the United States, shall be admitted into, and entitled to all the advantages of this Union; but no other colony shall be admitted into the same, unless such admission be agreed to by nine States,” the document says.

 

Not so crazy an idea considering that so many American loyalists fled to Canada before and during the Revolutionary War.   The strains and frictions with the British would continue through yet another war in 1812.

[JamesHackerMP]

That was in the Articles, yes.  But the present government is more along the lines that I meant. That of the constitution of 1787.

[Moonlight Graham]

Canadians learn a lot about US history through US media we consume.  I didn't learn any US history in elementary/high school other than in a larger context of international history of the 20th century.  We have US history & politics courses in our universities, but not any more than we have Russian or African history etc.

Because of movies etc i'm sure most Canadians could name more US potus' than Canadian PM's prior to when they were born.  Schools aren't very good at teaching Canadian history, maybe it's changed?  I remember taking one or 2 courses in high school.

[hot enough]

On 7/17/2017 at 10:52 AM, Moonlight Graham said:

Canadians learn a lot about US history through US media we consume. 

That's not history, US or otherwise, that's rank, there is no other kind, US propaganda.

[Moonlight Graham]

5 hours ago, hot enough said:

That's not history, US or otherwise, that's rank, there is no other kind, US propaganda.

Some of it is blatant propaganda, some of it isn't.  Certain documentaries you find on the history channel or whatnot can be largely factual, while Hollywood movies almost always bend the truth..  Unless you think all media is propaganda to a certain extent.  All media has its biases.

[hot enough]

4 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Certain documentaries you find on the history channel or whatnot can be largely factual,

They make a major mockery of the word 'history'.

[JamesHackerMP]

and of course Hollywood has its biases.  You watch "The West Wing", it's pretty lefty.  They don't care much for Republicans.

There are some pretty weird myths that go around the US about Canada as well I might admit.

[JamesHackerMP]

Like in the song "Blame Canada!" from the South Park movie, one line is "they're not even a real country anyway!"  Some idiots in my country took that to mean Canada is a "territory" of some sort of British "Empire" still...

I talked to someone from Ireland who truly believed that most Americans walk around armed; and a young lady from Sweden who thought we only had private schools in the US.  A Canadian I talked to seemed to think we still have a spoils system in our civil service.

So they don't really teach anything about  the US Govt in Canada? You only know what you get from the news and popular culture?

I wouldn't expect any other countries' citizens to be forced to learn my country's history.  I'm not so nationalistic as to expect that.  But considering that a huge chunk of the international current events have to do with the USA, and the fact that it's Canada's immediate neighbor, it would probably not be a waste of time to teach at least one course about it.  It would certainly dispel some of the myths.

Edited July 21, 2017 by JamesHackerMP

[cannuck]

Well, since Quebec - fully 1/4 of the population of Canada - did not sign our "Constitution", it really doesn't have any force in law.   That, IMHO, means we fall back to where we were in 1982, governed by the British North America Act.  Yeah, pretty much a British Crown Colony.

Maybe not in Maryland, but I can tell you that damn near EVERYONE in WY (where I have an office) owns not "a" gun, but several, and a large percentage are carrying (which is why we really don't have much of a crime problem).

Spoils system?   You really think that is not being done in the USA (and Canada, and Mexico)???   We are deeply involved in a rather large case in New York.   I KNOW it is common.

[hot enough]

On 7/21/2017 at 10:39 AM, JamesHackerMP said:

But considering that a huge chunk of the international current events have to do with the USA, and the fact that it's Canada's immediate neighbor, it would probably not be a waste of time to teach at least one course about it.  It would certainly dispel some of the myths.

That would take much much more than one course, James, to unbundle all the centuries of US propaganda/movies/BS/... . 

Do you know that there are actually people who think the US is a force for good, a kind, generous, benevolent country?

Edited September 29, 2017 by hot enough

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, hot enough said:

That would take much much more than one course, James, to unbundle all the centuries of US propaganda/movies/BS/... . 

Do you know that there are actually people who think the US is a force for good, a kind, generous, benevolent country?

Guilty! 

Well, maybe not all the soppy stuff, but still better than any other country that might legitimately have a shot.

[JamesHackerMP]

It's funny, hot enough, how people hold the United States to a completely different (much higher) standard than any other superpower, including the two that spawned what is today Canada.  Unlike the Soviets, we didn't drop "toy mines" in any war.  Benevolent? Of course not! And I would also HOPE NOT!! you don't defend your people by being Mr Nice Guy.  Any government that tries to do so is guilty of gross negligence.

As far as the spoils system, the federal government used to have such a thing.  For example, the Republicans took the White House in 1880, so all the White House employees from the previous administration lost their jobs, including James Garfield's assassin.  But under Roosevelt (Teddy) and other presidents, there were reforms to make the civil service permanent employees of the state, rather than the personal servants of the ruler (see Coup d'Etat: A Practical Handbook by Edward N. Luttwak).  I'm not talking about the most senior people, the appointees today are a drop in the bucket compared to the almost 3 million federal civil servants.  So no, we don't still have a spoils system.  Again, it sounds like someone's holding us to a standard of perfect which, quite frankly, doesn't exist among democratic governments.

Edited September 29, 2017 by JamesHackerMP

[hot enough]

8 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said:

It's funny, hot enough, how people hold the United States to a completely different (much higher) standard than any other superpower, including the two that spawned what is today Canada.  Unlike the Soviets, we didn't drop "toy mines" in any war.  Benevolent? Of course not! And I would also HOPE NOT!! you don't defend your people by being Mr Nice Guy.  Any government that tries to do so is guilty of gross negligence.

One should hold the US to the standard that the US hypocritically pretends it holds itself to, James.

What is good about a nation that invades, and rapes and pillages the poor defenseless countries of the world? If one looks at the historical record you can see that that is what the USA has always done. Hawaii, Guam, the Philippines, Cuba, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Nicaragua, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, ...  all never to liberate, all only to steal others wealth. 

Do you consider that is what the US pretends to be about? The US is the stingiest nation of the planet, the US is thee only country ever to be convicted of international terrorism.

Do you consider it is Mr Nice Guy for the USA to hire, train proxies to slash women's breasts off, to skin people alive, to create death lists and pass them on to their ALWAYS brutal vicious right wing dictatorships so citizens of other countries can be beheaded, dismembered alive, tortured and killed in the most vicious manner possible?

No country has been condemned consecutively by the UNGA for a quarter century for terrorist actions against one country except the USA. 

What Mr Nice Guy!?

 

[hot enough]

8 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said:

Unlike the Soviets, we didn't drop "toy mines" in any war.

No, the US drops real mines, real cluster bombs, with a good portion specifically designed not to explode, gifts from America and Americans to the children of the poor countries of the world, toys they play with and are killed and maimed by. The US drops depleted uranium, phosphorus bombs, it carpet bombs, napalm men, women and children with wild abandon. 

The USA plays its political games, always money grubbing, no other reason, caring not a whit about how many civilians get killed. And they are all civilians because the US has zero right to decide what type of government the people of any country decide to have. 

The USA has had a dedicated school of terrorism since at least WWII, right there in the kind and benevolent USA. The USA hypocritically pretends there is a war on terror when it is the leading terrorist group/nation that has ever existed. 

Are you aware of Operation Gladio, a US/UK policy post WWII that saw permanently planted right wing, always vicious right wing, terrorist groups in western European countries to bomb and commit terrorist actions to blame of the communists/the left?

[JamesHackerMP]

Oh yeah, Operation Gladio.  They mentioned that in an episode of Archer.

Anywho, how is this on topic?

UNGA? Oh, the UN General Assembly: where the dictatorships outnumber the democracies by, what, 10 to 1? Certainly a lot of countries who will zero in on everything the US does while being blind to what goes on in their own backyards (or even their own countries)? Look at who's in it and that might clue you in.  but I'm probably being hopeful.

You know what I meant by "toy mines" right? The soviets dropped children's toys.  They looked like toys but they exploded in your hand when you picked them up.  The goal was to get adults away from the war effort (stop them from fighting the soviet union) by forcing them to have to stay home to take care of their mutilated, handicapped children.  A wounded child, reasoned the Politburo, was harder to take care of than a dead one.

On 9/29/2017 at 10:21 AM, hot enough said:

One should hold the US to the standard that the US hypocritically pretends it holds itself to, James.

Really? What standard is that? You ask most Americans, they don't understand why we meddle in the affairs of the rest of the world.  There seems to be a lot of that going around here.  I never said the US was Mr Nice Guy! I said--and I'll say it again for your benefit (maybe you're in Quebec and English is actually your second language?) that you do NOT play Mr Nice Guy when you plan for your nation's survival.  If you do, you're being negligent to your own people.  You assumed I believe that, and it seems to indicate a very bigoted approach in your thinking toward the United States.  We could go on for days bitching about the present--and former!--superpowers of the world and not get anywhere.  (Including the superpower with which Canada is in a personal union.

As an American, I appreciate the valiant effort Canadians have made contributing to the war on terror, and the NATO action in Afghanistan.  Is your army not vicious to Canada's enemies? I would hope to hell it is, for Canada's sake.  In this bastard of a world you do not survive by being Mr Nice Guy.

PS, what does this have to do with myths about the US Constitution and political system?

[JamesHackerMP]

On 7/18/2017 at 1:01 PM, hot enough said:

That's not history, US or otherwise, that's rank, there is no other kind, US propaganda.

What, like Michael Moore?

If there's any questions about the US government you may have---that is, those of you who came to this website for a learning experience rather than bash-the-USA---I'd be happy to answer.  Most of you patiently answered mine about Canada.

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by JamesHackerMP