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Women Who Cover Their Faces Shouldn't Be accepted To Enter Canada!


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8 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Do you not see how harmful your posts are to inflaming hatred against innocent Muslims in Canada. And I direct this to everyone. You certainly aren't the only one on this forum. 

 

I'm afraid that's complete bollocks.  For one thing, the only way it's true is if you and Dialamah go out and beat up some Muslims, and that's not likely to happen.  I just can't see you being that easy to radicalize.  Argus ain't gonna, and neither is DoP.  I'm not.  No-one on here who is unafraid to speak about Islam in the manner which it deserves is going to.  So who is having their hatred inflamed?

 

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I wish many Muslims and liberals would be so objective when looking at the brutally misogynistic behavior associated with some Muslims’ interpretations of sharia and reject the knee-jerk reaction that paints anyone who questions the modern Muslim world as Islamophobic. The refusal to do so is chilling those of us who unequivocally believe in women’s rights, who believe in freedom of expression, who believe in rationality and critical thinking.

http://www.salon.com/2016/10/29/liberals-blind-faith-the-silence-on-the-misogyny-in-the-muslim-world-is-deafening/

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But in particular the issue of Christian persecution has been ignored because the Left feels uncomfortable discussing Muslim-on-Christian violence, and Muslim bigotry generally. Muslims, as (generally) non-European minorities in the West, excite their need to protect the vulnerable. Yet outside of the West, the men of Islam are far from vulnerable or weak – quite the opposite.

And the problem for the Left is that once you look into religious freedom around the world it becomes very hard to sustain the idea that Islam is a tolerant faith, as they would like to believe.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2014/06/the-lefts-blind-spot-with-islam-opposing-bigotry-does-not-mean-liking-a-religion/

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5 minutes ago, Argus said:

You still refuse to address the opinion of Egyptians. The vast majority of whom believe in the things I've listed several times. I find it hard to believe no members of your Muslim family believes in Sharia, and all that that implies.

And again, you refuse to accept that an entire world-wide religion by which people live their lives, even cloaking themselves in black clothe head to foot for their entire lives, can influence people to violence and hatred, yet you feel a guy on a little-read internet web site can do it.

You know nothing about Egypt.   They don't kill gays, they don't stone adulterous women.  They don't cut off limbs.   Too many still practice FGM.  Being gay and leaving Islam are crimes, as far as I understand that.   I disapprove of all of that.   But unlike you and your ilk, I don't throw out everyone in that society because I also know that many people also disagree with those laws and those social more, and are working to change it.    Islamophobes don't understand that difference between spewing hate and criticism. 

By the way, have you ever contributed money towards the ending of child marriage in Middle Eastern lands, as I have?   

18 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Never a truer word spoken...

How does it help progressive Muslims when people like Argus say "If a woman is wearing a headscarf, she's an extremist who hates gays and apostates"?   Or DoP says "If someone who claims to be Muslim doesn't believe he has to be a jihadist, he's not really a Muslim" and endlessly declares how Muslims are a threat to Westerners.

Please, Sapper, explain exactly how that helps.   How do you suppose it makes a young Muslim in Toronto feel, to know that there are people like DoP and Argus with their one-size-fits-all-Muslims - ignorant, violent, backward, savage and barbaric?    How exactly is that "criticizing" Islam?

 

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2 minutes ago, Omni said:

A completely subjective statement. However not uncommon on here on this subject.

If one speaks about the acts that are done in the name of Allah, which are also thoroughly deserving of disgust, contempt and utter abhorrence, how is that subjective? 

Remember, I'm not talking about filling the poor box in Allah's name.

So, don't ever mention the bad stuff?

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8 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

If one speaks about the acts that are done in the name of Allah, which are also thoroughly deserving of disgust, contempt and utter abhorrence, how is that subjective? 

Remember, I'm not talking about filling the poor box in Allah's name.

So, don't ever mention the bad stuff?

That's not what either Argus or DoP do or others do.   They use those events to tell anyone who'll listen that all Muslims are the same.  So then, if a woman wears a headscarf, Argus decides she hates gays and she should not be welcome in Canada.  If a Muslim doesn't plan to ever kill an apostate, DoP declares him not a Muslim.     If a niqab-wearing woman threatens others with a knife, Betsy decides no niqab-wearing women should be in Canada.     

There is a world of difference between criticism and simply painting an entire group with the same ugly brush, regardless of the different customs and beliefs among them.  

Edited by dialamah
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21 minutes ago, dialamah said:

You know nothing about Egypt.   They don't kill gays, they don't stone adulterous women.  They don't cut off limbs.   Too many still practice FGM.  Being gay and leaving Islam are crimes, as far as I understand that.   I disapprove of all of that.   But unlike you and your ilk, I don't throw out everyone in that society because I also know that many people also disagree with those laws and those social more, and are working to change it.    Islamophobes don't understand that difference between spewing hate and criticism. 

By the way, have you ever contributed money towards the ending of child marriage in Middle Eastern lands, as I have?   

How does it help progressive Muslims when people like Argus say "If a woman is wearing a headscarf, she's an extremist who hates gays and apostates"?   Or DoP says "If someone who claims to be Muslim doesn't believe he has to be a jihadist, he's not really a Muslim" and endlessly declares how Muslims are a threat to Westerners.

Please, Sapper, explain exactly how that helps.   How do you suppose it makes a young Muslim in Toronto feel, to know that there are people like DoP and Argus with their one-size-fits-all-Muslims - ignorant, violent, backward, savage and barbaric?    How exactly is that "criticizing" Islam?

 

Like I said to WCR, how are these arguments getting to the young Muslim in Toronto? 

Muslims are a threat to Westerners.  (They are a bigger threat to other Muslims, of course) To say they are not is blatantly obtuse.  Recent events make that perfectly clear.  The problem is, exposing and finding them, and separating them from those Muslims who are not, is a job made increasingly difficult by the "Islam is a religion of peace" crowd, who are made up primarily of western liberals.  (It is mindmeltingly obvious that it is not a religion of peace)  That's why it took so long to believe and act on the over 1000 young girls who were being sexually abused in Rotherham, UK.  The fact it was Muslims committing the crimes can be laid in part at their cultural background, but the fact they got away with it for years is due to liberals too cowardly to do anything about it.  That's worse, because if it had been made clear right at the beginning that the same rules were going to apply, most of those girls would not have been subject to the horrors that they were.

I would also suggest it's not Muslims who try to prevent people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali speaking at Universities.

As for the one size fits all views, I disagree with both Argus and DoP on this issue at times, but only by degree.  I've argued the points many times.

Edited by bcsapper
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21 minutes ago, dialamah said:

You know nothing about Egypt.  

I know that 84% of the population supports Sharia law for all citizens, Muslims or not. 70% explicitly support the 'corporal punishments' under Sharia for thieves and the like. 81% favour stoning for adultery. 86% favour death for anyone who leaves Islam. I know they don't like Christians, and that any hint that a Christian said anything blasphemous will bring a Muslim mob with torches ready to burn them and their homes.

And I know that's not something you care about.

Quote

They don't kill gays, they don't stone adulterous women.  They don't cut off limbs. 

No, and you know why not? Because the will of the people was thwarted when the Muslim brotherhood government was overthrown. Otherwise you can be sure that, as they promised many times, Sharia law would have been implemented.

Quote

How does it help progressive Muslims when people like Argus say "If a woman is wearing a headscarf, she's an extremist who hates gays and apostates"?  \

How does it help progressive Muslims when people like dialahamah protest any time westerners criticize the wearing of headscarves, niquabs and burquas as a misogynistic cultural relic and assure Muslims they have a perfect right to wear them and be proud of themselves while doing so?

 

Edited by Argus
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33 minutes ago, Argus said:

Why do many liberals, who criticize Christianity and religious conviction in general, appear to open their arms to radical Islam so affectionately? Why are so many liberals, who call themselves the robust defenders of peace, social justice, and freedoms, apologetic for all types of fundamentalist Islamist laws?

If, as liberals argue, they support women's and LGBT rights, why, by their silence, do they condone gays executed and women subjugated on a daily basis throughout most of the enormous Muslim world? If liberals are in favor of freedom of speech, why do they turn a blind eye to Islamist governments such as Iran that, based on the government's radical, theocratic laws, execute people for expressing their opinion? And why do they not let people in the West express their opinion without attacking them before even giving them the respect of hearing what they have to say?

 

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10091/muslims-liberals-leftists

This whole thing assumes that objecting to some moron on the internet saying "Muslims are incipient terrorists, and want to kill gays and stone adulterers" is the same as saying "We want to see people blown up, gays killed and adulterers stoned".   

And who is being "silent" about the lack of rights for gays and women in those countries?  It's the government, not the citizens.   Many Canadians wish we'd boycott Saudi or Iran, or do something more than the gentle "Gee guys don't do that" that is currently the action of choice.   But hey - oil, right?   Our government puts oil above women's rights and gay rights, regardless of what I or any other citizen might want.

And do you really think the 'left' feels like the 'right' is respectfully listening?  

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3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

This whole thing assumes that objecting to some moron on the internet saying "Muslims are incipient terrorists, and want to kill gays and stone adulterers" is the same as saying "We want to see people blown up, gays killed and adulterers stoned".   

And who is being "silent" about the lack of rights for gays and women in those countries?  It's the government, not the citizens.

You simply refuse to believe that Muslims believe in Islam, don't you? It's simply not a matter open for discussion to you. Muslims don't believe in Islam, which means that if it weren't for their awful governments there'd be goodness and light and freedom and equality for women and gays - even though Islam says otherwise.

To you, the fact a person might pray five times a day and live their lives by Islam is absolutely no indication they believe in Islam! Of course not! So what if they wrap themselves in a black sheet their entire lives! That doesn't mean they're going to believe any of the other stupid stuff Islam says! Whyever would anyone think so!?

So what if 84% of Egyptians support Sharia law! They certainly don't MEAN it! Or at least, they don't mean those icky parts about killing gays and stoning women! Why would anyone but a moron think they did!? Just because they say they do!

Edited by Argus
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7 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Like I said to WCR, how are these arguments getting to the young Muslim in Toronto? 

 

Do you really think Argus and DoP are the only ones saying these kinds of things?  Do you think they came up with this stuff all by themselves?  Do you think Muslims, including teenagers and young adults, are unaware of the rising anti-Muslim sentiment in Canada?  Do you think they missed the 'barbaric cultural' practices hotline proposal?   The debate over the niqab?  The 'Canadian values' test proposed by Leitch?  Do you think they don't hear about Trump and the property crimes, harassment and physical attacks against Muslims that have been carried out in his name?   The Muslim ban?

If you think they're just merrily going on their way, all unaware of and not affected by the anti-Muslim rhetoric on social media, in the news, in their neighborhoods and on their Mosques, you are pretty dense.

 

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5 minutes ago, Argus said:

You simply refuse to believe that Muslims believe in Islam, don't you? It's simply not a matter open for discussion to you. Muslims don't believe in Islam, which means that if it weren't for their awful governments there'd be goodness and light and freedom and equality for women and gays - even though Islam says otherwise.

 

 

I'm reading this book I mentioned earlier, criticizing Islam basically.  There is so much contradictory stuff in there, they can believe whatever the F they want, and they're believing in Islam.   It's just like the Bible that way, so the Muslims who accept gays are just as Muslim as the ones who reject gays.

Quote

So what if 84% of Egyptians support Sharia law!

Which Sharia law, exactly?   There are quite a few to choose from.    

________________________________

Now, I'm going to say this one more time, using simple words so you maybe get it:

I do not agree with how Muslim countries are governed.   Objecting to you in your effort to paint all Muslims as the same does not mean I support gay killing/wife beating/pedophilia/etc or the way in which the governments in these countries oppress their citizens.  

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Argus said:

To you, the fact a person might pray five times a day and live their lives by Islam is absolutely no indication they believe in Islam! Of course not! So what if they wrap themselves in a black sheet their entire lives! That doesn't mean they're going to believe any of the other stupid stuff Islam says! Whyever would anyone think so!?

How many Canadian Muslim women wear the niqab do you suppose? You have no frikkin idea do you?  Just like you have not much idea about so many other over zealous, unsubstantiated assumptions you you try to sneak by us on this subject. How many times someone prays during a day, what skin is that off your arse? Relate to a specific incident by all means if you wish. Maybe try to relate to something other than pet peeve religion and stop trying to plaster a whole community with your typical broad brush "arguments". Dialamah pointed out something that I can attest to from some of my travels. I have roamed around Iran and for instance, when a man and a woman enter the airport security they must separate and go through separate screening. That's the government rules, not the peoples.    

Oh and I forgot to clue you in: Canadian Muslim women wearing the niqab...less than 2%.And most who do wear any sort of head covering, do so by choice, like a Christian might wear a cross.

Edited by Omni
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23 minutes ago, Argus said:

No, and you know why not? Because the will of the people was thwarted when the Muslim brotherhood government was overthrown. Otherwise you can be sure that, as they promised many times, Sharia law would have been implemented.

Missed this the first time:  it was the other way around - the will of the people was to rid themselves of the Muslim Brotherhood; Morsi was so determined to remain in power, despite massive protests, that he threatened to let Egyptian blood flow.  That was when the army stepped in and removed him.   At that time, the army was the savior of the people for getting rid of Morsi and Sisi is still widely supported for his actions against the MB.

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17 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Do you really think Argus and DoP are the only ones saying these kinds of things?  Do you think they came up with this stuff all by themselves?  Do you think Muslims, including teenagers and young adults, are unaware of the rising anti-Muslim sentiment in Canada?  Do you think they missed the 'barbaric cultural' practices hotline proposal?   The debate over the niqab?  The 'Canadian values' test proposed by Leitch?  Do you think they don't hear about Trump and the property crimes, harassment and physical attacks against Muslims that have been carried out in his name?   The Muslim ban?

If you think they're just merrily going on their way, all unaware of and not affected by the anti-Muslim rhetoric on social media, in the news, in their neighborhoods and on their Mosques, you are pretty dense.

 

Yeah, we are kinda straying from the point in order to call me dense.  I'm not saying there aren't people out there who hate Muslims.  Look at the Ottawa shooting.  Of course they are out there.  Their numbers are miniscule when it comes to the number of Muslims who hate infidels, but I know that doesn't include all Muslims.  Just as not all sane, Islam criticizing people are Islamophobes.  I am the obvious example of that, density notwithstanding. 

There is nothing wrong with a Barbaric Cultural Practices hotline, so long as it's not manned by liberals.  Then what would be the point?  It would be like crimestoppers.  Of course, crimestoppers could be used.  So long as something is.  It could save lives.

There is nothing wrong with a debate over the Niqab.  I would be against any ban, of course.

I was against the values test, as I saw little value in it.  I would prefer a system that was willing to deport without appeal those found guilty of the aforementioned "Barbaric Cultural Practices", once a suitable jail sentence was served.

I'm afraid you might be the one who is dense if you think the world's more fundamentalist Muslims can continue to behave in the manner that they do, and there will be no anti Muslim rhetoric.

 

Edited by bcsapper
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36 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

 

I'm afraid you might be the one who is dense if you think the world's more fundamentalist Muslims can continue to behave in the manner that they do, and there will be no anti Muslim rhetoric.

 

Until there were terror attacks, few people cared what fundamental Muslims did.  Now that so many Muslims are vociferously rejecting terrorism in Islam's name, and that there have been a bunch of fatwas against terror attacks, and Imams worldwide have declared terrorism non-Islamic, do you suppose people will stop claiming terror attacks a Muslim requirement and return to ignoring fundie Muslims?

 

Edited by dialamah
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2 hours ago, Argus said:

So you're equating my thoughts of dissaproval for murdering gays with thoughts of murdering gays.

I can see why you have no standards for people coming into Canada. A man with no moral or ethical values wouldn't, would he.

Yes I am equating your thoughts to Evil Incarnate.  Should you be shot for it? Nope. Restricted in your movements somehow? Nope. Banned from entering Canada? Nope. Denied the vote? Nope. Phones tapped? Followed by CSIS? Denied suspenders? Nope.

 Which is far more generous than what you want done with non-Canadian Values follk. Or poor folk. Even those that don't want gays murdered.

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2 hours ago, Argus said:

I wish many Muslims and liberals would be so objective when looking at the brutally misogynistic behavior associated with some Muslims’ interpretations of sharia and reject the knee-jerk reaction that paints anyone who questions the modern Muslim world as Islamophobic. The refusal to do so is chilling those of us who unequivocally believe in women’s rights, who believe in freedom of expression, who believe in rationality and critical thinking.

http://www.salon.com/2016/10/29/liberals-blind-faith-the-silence-on-the-misogyny-in-the-muslim-world-is-deafening/

    when looking at the brutally misogynistic behavior associated with some Muslims’ interpretations of sharia and reject the knee-jerk reaction that paints anyone who questions the modern Muslim world as Islamophobic.

Some muslim' interpretations, Argus. Some.  But thats not your position is it? No.  All Muslims think that way is your position.  You are very wrong about that.   

My on-occasion refusal to let the bs pass by is not standing up for effin ISIS or effin Imams or just plain ol muslims calling for death to gays. So the author here has got that bit wrong.  When I read that all muslims are fanatics and if not terrorists themselves then secretly support terrorism and therefore ALL muslims must be watched-banned-forbidden to wear niquabs I say Bullshit.   If you or this author wishes to clear the field for the reformers (What reformers? are they not Muslims? Are not women in niquabs fanatics?) then stop populating that same field with bullshit .

Edited by Peter F
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19 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Until there were terror attacks, few people cared what fundamental Muslims did.  Now that so many Muslims are vociferously rejecting terrorism in Islam's name, and that there have been a bunch of fatwas against terror attacks, and Imams worldwide have declared terrorism non-Islamic, do you suppose people will stop claiming terror attacks a Muslim requirement and return to ignoring fundie Muslims?

 

As a Brit from Bradford, I have known about fundamentalist Islamic beliefs for a long time. I think the first real eye opener was Salman Rushdie, though.   Still, you seem to be questioning the reasons for noticing, not that which is noticed.   Terror attacks are the cherry, for sure, but the rest of Islam still has an awful lot wrong with it. 

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1 minute ago, Peter F said:

ah. I saw a contradiction and pointed it out. Muslims are a threat to westerners except for the ones who aren't. I can live with that.

That would be exactly right. 

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