Russia bans Jehovah's Witnesses

[Goddess]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-jehovahs-witnesses-ban-extremists-religion-christian-sect-vladimir-putin-supreme-court-a7693671.html

 

 

Quote

 

Russia has banned Jehovah's Witnesses after the Supreme Court ruled the Christian sect to be an “extremist” group.

“The Supreme Court has ruled to sustain the claim of Russia's ministry of justice and deem the 'Administrative Centre of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia' organisation extremist, eliminate it and ban its activity in Russia,” said judge Yuri Ivanenko.

“The property of the Jehovah's Witnesses organisation is to be confiscated to the state revenue.”

 

 

The JW's were banned in Russia for a long time, but were finally given legal status in Russia (I think in the 80's??).  Since then, Russia has tried many times to ban them but it looks like they finally did - using anti-extremist laws.

While I'm not a fan of the JW's and believe it is a harmful cult, I'm not sure I agree with banning them.

At the same time, I feel their "charitable organization" status should be revoked in EVERY country, as they do absolutely nothing charitable.

In the last couple of years, the JW's have been the focus of Royal Commission investigations in Commonwealth countries, the one in Austrralia did not go very well for them - the Commission found over 1000 cases of unreported child molestation.  

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/nov/28/jehovahs-witnesses-did-not-protect-children-from-abuse-inquiry-finds

Shortly after this, the British Royal Commission launched an investigation.

In the US, they generally pay off people who try to sue them over child abuse, but Candace Conti won a $28 million dollar case against them.  They have gradually whittled that amount down through the appeals process.  But Candace was one of the first to refuse the "hush money" and wanted what they were doing to be exposed.

https://www.revealnews.org/article/jehovahs-witnesses-use-1st-amendment-to-hide-child-sex-abuse-claims/

 

Banning them only feeds into their persecution complex and convinces them that they are (as they put it)  "The Truth".

 

[Goddess]

Another interesting thing:

I was a JW when the paedophole scandals with the Catholic Church were going on, and the JW's used this to "prove" that Catholics were a false religion.

Now that it's happening to them, of course, it's just "human imperfection".

[dialamah]

Interesting.  I don't think any closed Christian group would do well if investigated for rampant sexual abuse of women and children.  But not really fair to just blame Christianity:  it seems sexually abusing the less powerful is hardwired into humans, especially male humans.  

[Goddess]

I'm not sure if the Royal Commission investigations had much, if anything, to do with the banning in Russia.  They are using anti-extremist laws to ban them.

I'm guessing, based on past legal battles in various countries, that the JW's will fight this to the death.  They have a lot of resources - it's basically nothing more than a "book publishing real estate company" masquerading as a religion and they are quite wealthy in other parts of the world, being based and originating in the US.  They have a very large and powerful legal department to fight these battles.

Since their property in Russia was also confiscated by the government, they will have to use funds from the US to fight this.

Remember that next time they ask for a "donation" for their magazines.....a lot of that money is going to hush up child sexual abuse (an investigation in the US revealed tens of millions have been paid out to make court cases disappear and they always ask for a gag order on the victim, too)  and fight these kinds of governmental interference.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Interesting.  I don't think any closed Christian group would do well if investigated for rampant sexual abuse of women and children. 

Probably better than any Muslim group. In Islam you have a religion where women have no voices or power and can be easily abused by religious authorities.

[Goddess]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-jehovahs-witnesses-ban-extremists-religion-christian-sect-vladimir-putin-supreme-court-a7693671.html?amp

 

Quote

Russia changed its legal definition of extremism in 2006, removing requirements for violence or hatred but stating the “incitement of….religious discord” as criteria, leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses with the same legal status as Isis or Nazis.

 

I also read somewhere that in 2009, the laws were changed in Russia so that proselytizing outside of churches was forbidden.  The JW's in Russia would have ignored this, as they believe the door-to-door work is mandatory and you can't be saved if you don't do it.  They even changed their own internal rules about 10 years ago so that the elderly or disabled can report a minimum of 15 minutes of proselytizing to be considered an "active" JW and not lose out on salvation.

I'm not sure I agree with banning them, the same as I wouldn't support a ban on Islam, but some of their teachings and requirements are not exactly benign - refusals of blood transfusions even for minor children, the requirement of shunning even family members and the constant instruction to not be freinds with anyone considered "worldly".  Women are to be in submission, although wife-beating is frowned upon. Wives who are victims of domestic abuse are counseled to be in submission and try not to anger their husbands and are told that divorce/seperation is only an option if they really feel their life is in danger or if the husband is requiring them to stop attending in meetings and participating in the door-to-door work.

That being said, they do preach that only they have The Truth, all other religions are false religion and everyone who is not a JW will be destroyed by God at Armageddon, including all governments.

[hot enough]

7 hours ago, Goddess said:

I'm guessing, based on past legal battles in various countries, that the JW's will fight this to the death.

Okay.

[Bob Macadoo]

18 hours ago, Argus said:

Probably better than any Muslim group. In Islam you have a religion where women have no voices or power and can be easily abused by religious authorities.

You're reaching DoP/BC level of "pavlovianous".  The topic is a christian sect.....no need for thread drift.

[Guest]

I'm a big Jdub fan.  About ten years ago they came around and respectfully asked the neighbouhood not to put up Christmas lights.

So now I don't have to put up Christmas lights.

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

I'm a big Jdub fan.  About ten years ago they came around and respectfully asked the neighbouhood not to put up Christmas lights.

So now I don't have to put up Christmas lights.

LOL

Really? I'm not doubting you because I can totally see some of them doing that, but it would be a personal thing, not ordered by the old white guys in NY.

Still LOL'ing 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

LOL

Really? I'm not doubting you because I can totally see some of them doing that, but it would be a personal thing, not ordered by the old white guys in NY.

Still LOL'ing 

It's true.  And now, every year, when it gets to -25 and it's time to put up the lights, I refuse.  In the interests of tolerance and diversity.

[Goddess]

9 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

It's true.  And now, every year, when it gets to -25 and it's time to put up the lights, I refuse.  In the interests of tolerance and diversity.

HahaHa!

FYI: they don't like being tickled when they come to your door.

[Rue]

Well as someone with family who died in the holocaust I am well aware that JW's alongw ith 7th Day Adventists were shipped to the death camps refusing to swear allegiance to Hitler and willing to die for their beliefs. For that legacy I have to be deeply respectful. From a practical perspective uh yah they can be a tad annoying coming to the door preaching but hell how the hell could anyone call them dangerous? Putin is just a sordid hateful sob. He does stuff like this he gets harder to differentiate from Hitler. What next does he intend to round them all up? Then what?

Not to digress but back in the Duplessis days of Quebec, Marcel Duplessis triggered the first religious persecution case using his government to harass JW's and in particular one from getting  a job with the Liquor Board triggering the first major case prohibiting governments from discriminating against people based on their religion.

Let's be fair. JW's are not dangerous or violent and follow all the laws everywhere. They are not terrorists or extremists.Who next? 7th Day Adventists? Christian Scientists? Amish? Christian sects have the right to their individual approaches to Christianity. Name me one JW who is violent or threatens any state? . I defend them from discrimination. JW's are not terrorists or violent and its precisely why he picks on them. Its what cowards do-go after pacifists. Leave them alone and let them worship their God in peace.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Rue

[Rue]

2 hours ago, Goddess said:

HahaHa!

FYI: they don't like being tickled when they come to your door.

No  I was just  having a bad day.  Can I come back? You bought the JW line did you. I said Jew not JW.

[OftenWrong]

They came to my door a few times, a couple of years ago. Was a young guy, teenager almost and a girl. I went out on the porch and asked what they wanted. They said "We want to talk to you about God." I said, ok. So we had a nice chat. After a while they could see I had my own religious beliefs and they wanted to encourage me to go to the Kingdom Hall. I told them I would not do that, nor attend any church really, because I don't associate those institutions with the true beliefs of Jesus Christ. This troubled them, and they left.

They came back about two weeks later, this time the young guy, girl, and an old man. Brought out the reinforcements, I see. So me and the old man had a nice long discussion again, I talked about what I call "The institutionalization of Christ", which I feel is antithetical to the very words which Jesus is purported to have said. And same goes for Kingdom Hall. Eventually they tired of me and left on their own accord. They never returned.

Edited April 22, 2017 by OftenWrong

[Goddess]

2 hours ago, Rue said:

Well as someone with family who died in the holocaust I am well aware that JW's alongw ith 7th Day Adventists were shipped to the death camps refusing to swear allegiance to Hitler and willing to die for their beliefs. For that legacy I have to be deeply respectful. From a practical perspective uh yah they can be a tad annoying coming to the door preaching but hell how the hell could anyone call them dangerous? Putin is just a sordid hateful sob. He does stuff like this he gets harder to differentiate from Hitler. What next does he intend to round them all up? Then what?

Not to digress but back in the Duplessis days of Quebec, Marcel Duplessis triggered the first religious persecution case using his government to harass JW's and in particular one from getting  a job with the Liquor Board triggering the first major case prohibiting governments from discriminating against people based on their religion.

Let's be fair. JW's are not dangerous or violent and follow all the laws everywhere. They are not terrorists or extremists.Who next? 7th Day Adventists? Christian Scientists? Amish? Christian sects have the right to their individual approaches to Christianity. Name me one JW who is violent or threatens any state? . I defend them from discrimination. JW's are not terrorists or violent and its precisely why he picks on them. Its what cowards do-go after pacifists. Leave them alone and let them worship their God in peace.

I agree with nearly everything you said. 

You might find this interesting, as I did. I had no idea of it when I was a JW and it greatly disturbed me when I found out about it. It was just one of many discoveries that prompted me to leave the religion.

https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/hitler-nazi.php

I'm not trying to minimize the Holocaust or deny that JW'S also were persecuted by the Nazis. Just some additional information.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Goddess

[Goddess]

2 hours ago, Rue said:

No  I was just  having a bad day.  Can I come back? You bought the JW line did you. I said Jew not JW.

I was a born-in JW. Third generation.

[hot enough]

5 hours ago, Rue said:

I am well aware that JW's alongw ith 7th Day Adventists were shipped to the death camps refusing to swear allegiance to Hitler and willing to die for their beliefs. For that legacy I have to be deeply respectful.

As opposed to the US who did a lot of business with the Nazis.

[hot enough]

2 hours ago, Goddess said:

I was a born-in JW. Third generation.

Now I understand.

[Rue]

On ‎2017‎-‎04‎-‎22 at 5:59 PM, Goddess said:

I agree with nearly everything you said. 

You might find this interesting, as I did. I had no idea of it when I was a JW and it greatly disturbed me when I found out about it. It was just one of many discoveries that prompted me to leave the religion.

https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/hitler-nazi.php

I'm not trying to minimize the Holocaust or deny that JW'S also were persecuted by the Nazis. Just some additional information.

Yah Godess. I understand. Got you. Sympathize with you and agree with you. You use the same reasoning and have the same feelings I do towards ultra orthodox Judaism. I get you.  Sad stuff.

[Rue]

On ‎2017‎-‎04‎-‎22 at 8:38 PM, hot enough said:

As opposed to the US who did a lot of business with the Nazis.

The US? You mean specific industrialists in the US. You smeer an entire nation of people. Sure why not. Its why your words have such credibility on this board. Here's a reminder yes there were pro Nazi supporters in the US. There were also thousands who dies defeating Hitler. The US is a bug country full of a lot of people. Stop using sweeping stereotypes of an entire nation's people and no the US government did not do business with Nazis, individual companies like Ford Motor Company did.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Rue

[Goddess]

8 minutes ago, Rue said:

Yah Godess. I understand. Got you. Sympathize with you and agree with you. You use the same reasoning and have the same feelings I do towards ultra orthodox Judaism. I get you.  Sad stuff.

We didn't stick up for the Jews.

I felt awful about it when I found out.

[hot enough]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

We didn't stick up for the Jews.

I felt awful about it when I found out.

And you never learn. Now you are doing it to the Muslims, Iraqis, Cubans, Guatemalans, Nicaraguans, ... . 

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, hot enough said:

And you never learn. Now you are doing it to the Muslims, Iraqis, Cubans, Guatemalans, Nicaraguans, ... . 

Take it to one of your loony topics, please.

[-TSS-]

I don't know how it is around where you are but here in Finland the main-centre of the JW's is like some sort of castle with huge walls. Many embassies of big countries have less impressive buildings and premises.