The Ill feeling between left and right on immigration

[Omni]

49 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

But even more so in Canada, where the ongoing fight over public funding for religious schools has flared up again and abortions are still very difficult to get in PEI.   It's a constant battle.....immigrants may wonder what kind of backward nation they have chosen.

Have you bothered to study abortion laws in the US? BTW abortions are available in PEI. Try to keep up OK.

[Argus]

56 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

So you are clearly good at picking criteria that will exclude countries you don't like.

I'm clearly good at picking criteria that will exclude people I don't want on social value grounds.

If I was to pick countries I didn't want on economic grounds I would exclude the entire middle east and most of Asia, including South Korea and China.

 

[dialamah]

Just now, Argus said:

I'm clearly good at picking criteria that will exclude people I don't want on social value grounds.

 

Me too!  But I like to keep such exclusions to my personal circle, not the entire country.  Much as I might find conservatives frustrating and annoying, I also believe they must bring something of value to the country, else why would we have them?

 

[Argus]

57 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I just want to say that I agree with you more than I don't.   

I think "vast numbers" is relative.  There are about 35 million people in Canada and just over 1 million Muslims.  

Muslims currently make up 3.2% based on the 2011 census. If increases hold true to the same pattern they've demonstrated for the last forty years the next cenus in four years will show their numbers at 7.5%. And the one after that at 15%

57 minutes ago, dialamah said:

But aside from that, I think the error people are making is assuming that the most conservative people choose to come to Canada.  Why would they?  They aren't as ignorant as so many like to think: they have access to social media, to our television programs, they watch our elections and they read our media outlets. They have a pretty good idea of what they're choosing, so even before they apply they've figured out that gays are tolerated and women are equal.  They may assume or hope or expect that their own family will maintain their 'home-country' values, but they may also be eager to experience a more liberal society.  

And they may not be. I've never heard of any Muslims who came here eager to experience liberal society. I suppose if they're secretly gay they would, though.

I have heard of lots of Muslims here who send their kids home for schooling in their teenage years, or at least, to find a 'proper' spouse, because they dislike the values of Canadian kids.

 

57 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Perhaps if all the immigrants were being lifted, willy-nilly, from small villages where they have no internet and rampant illiteracy

Like the 100,000 odd Syrians, you mean?

57 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Religious tyranny is more likely from Christians than Muslims, imo.  Look at what is happening in Republican states:  l

There are no Christian theocracies in the world and there hasn't been one, as far as I know, basically since the Holy Roman Empire. The same can't be said for Islamic theocracies. There are also no Christian terrorist or guerilla groups or even political parties that I'm aware of in the West striving for a Christian theocracy. There are Muslim political/terrorist/guerrilla groups pursuing an Islamic theocracy in pretty much all Muslim countries that are not CURRENTLY Islamic theocracies.

So your statement makes zero sense.

[Argus]

58 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Egypt doesn't want to execute gays either; they just jail them - like Russia does.  Nigeria imposes the death penalty; half of Nigeria is Christian.  Do Nigerian Christians have to pass a 'values' test?  

Definitely.

[Argus]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Me too!  But I like to keep such exclusions to my personal circle, not the entire country.

I am more forward thinking than you.

[dre]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

As for the 'problem of coming up with a universal set of values' being impossible. I don't think so. We're not looking to screen out anyone who isn't a fanatic about something. Is it a universal value we don't kill homosexuals? I think it is. Is it a universal value we don't beat up our wives whenever we feel like it, or execute people for blaspheme? I'm pretty sure that's the case.

We DO screen out people that kill homosexuals, beat their wives, or murder other people. Pretty sure anybody that answers yes to any of those questions isn't going to get let in.

BTW... ever think of a single useful question to put on your little quiz? Last time I asked you couldn't think of a single one.  

I think we need to see some more specifics on how this is going to work. Right now its just boiler plate crap. This isn't the same as tests a company might have for employees. If there are fixed sets of questions, then they will be useless. They will all be posted on the internet with instructions how to avoid adverse results. You COULD have a person ask questions on a case by case basis, and try to chase potential unsubs into corners... probably is someone doing that would need to be a doctor for the results to mean much. Thats going to get extremely expensive.

This idea is a nice "feel good" idea, and its smart politics. In practice though if you want to spend more money on screening immigrants we would get better bang for the buck by strengthening traditional background and security checks.

[hot enough]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

There are also no Christian terrorist or guerilla groups or even political parties that I'm aware of in the West striving for a Christian theocracy.

You ignore the USA, as you always do, which has been striving for world dominance for some time, slaughtering tens of millions in the process.

[Michael Hardner]

8 hours ago, Argus said:

Definitely.

Is the 'values' test required from every country ?  Would you prohibit citizens from some countries, aside from such a test ?

[PIK]

18 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Canadians are Muslim too.  If you don't want that, then you should direct your energy to changing the constitution to make Canada a Christian state.

We are, but trudeau making sure that ends with him.

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, PIK said:

We are, but trudeau making sure that ends with him.

And me.  I don't want a Christian State any more than I want an Islamic State.  Keep your religious paws off my government. 

[PIK]

33 minutes ago, dialamah said:

And me.  I don't want a Christian State any more than I want an Islamic State.  Keep your religious paws off my government. 

I agree, but Islam is getting special treatment from this government. Trudeau is becoming very dangerous.

[Hydraboss]

10 hours ago, hot enough said:

You ignore the USA, as you always do, which has been striving for world dominance for some time, slaughtering tens of millions in the process.

Please cite these "tens of millions".  I must not have been watching the news on those days and I'm very interested in where all these people were from.

Thanks,

[Argus]

11 hours ago, dre said:

We DO screen out people that kill homosexuals, beat their wives, or murder other people. Pretty sure anybody that answers yes to any of those questions isn't going to get let in.

Except nobody asks those questions.

Quote

BTW... ever think of a single useful question to put on your little quiz? Last time I asked you couldn't think of a single one.  

I have already told you that designing personality tests is not my area of expertise. As I understand it they ask a series of questions which all seem harmless to the respondent, but taken together lead to an inevitable conclusion. Certainly when designing a questionnaire for Muslims you would pose questions about a variety of tenets of Islam to ascertain how firm the support was for them.  I don't really think you need to ask a very religious Muslim from Pakistan what he feels about gays. He feels they should be killed. 

Quote

I think we need to see some more specifics on how this is going to work. Right now its just boiler plate crap. This isn't the same as tests a company might have for employees.

It"s not really much different. Companies design these tests to to assess honesty, initiative, and how well a candidate gets along with others. Those are exactly the sorts of things we need to test, too.

Quote

If there are fixed sets of questions, then they will be useless. They will all be posted on the internet with instructions how to avoid adverse results.

How do you imagine a candidate leaving a two hour test with scores of questions is going to be able to immediately post them all on the internet, never mind the answers? I've taken a number of such tests, particularly in applying for both external and internal jobs for the government. No one ever told me which questions I got right or wrong. I simply got a pass or fail on the test, or sometimes a percentage of correct questions.

 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Argus

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, PIK said:

I agree, but Islam is getting special treatment from this government. Trudeau is becoming very dangerous.

Not really.  Jews get equally 'special' treatment, since they are also subject to religiously motivated harassment and hate crimes.

[hot enough]

9 minutes ago, Argus said:

 I don't really think you need to ask a very religious Muslim from Pakistan what he feels about gays. He feels they should be killed. 

How are you and your fellow travelers any different, Argus? You actively support the murder of millions by the USA/UK. You actively support the slaughter of children. 

Get off your hypocritical high horse which is simply racist based. If Canada increased the number of immigrants from your favorite whitey countries you would be, as you have often stated, simply thrilled. 

[Argus]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Is the 'values' test required from every country ?  Would you prohibit citizens from some countries, aside from such a test ?

Were I in charge of immigration I would assign a panel of experts to decide how many based on demographics. Then I would have them decide on who to let in based on economics and cultural suitability. I have no problem with testing ALL applicants from anywhere on Earth. 

My personal preference under both economic and cultural suitability would be young Europeans as the government itself suggests they are the most economically successful, and I believe they are the most culturally suitable and would fit in the easiest.

As a conservative, I do not think immigration should be used to appeal to the liberal desire for change, novelty, and diversity. I regard it as a purely economic tool, and if it isn't helpful to the economy it should not exist. If it is helpful then it should be done with as little cultural disruption as possible. I do not understand why liberals regard that position as somehow less moral than theirs.

[Hydraboss]

17 minutes ago, hot enough said:

the murder of millions by the USA/UK

Please provide a credible cite for this accusation.

Thanks,

[PIK]

23 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Not really.  Jews get equally 'special' treatment, since they are also subject to religiously motivated harassment and hate crimes.

Not even close.

[Argus]

5 minutes ago, Hydraboss said:

Please provide a credible cite for this accusation.

Thanks,

Please don't get him started. If you want to talk about lunatic stuff he's started a number of such topics for you to investigate.

[PIK]

25 minutes ago, hot enough said:

How are you and your fellow travelers any different, Argus? You actively support the murder of millions by the USA/UK. You actively support the slaughter of children. 

Get off your hypocritical high horse which is simply racist based. If Canada increased the number of immigrants from your favorite whitey countries you would be, as you have often stated, simply thrilled. 

Whitey built this country in 150 yrs, while it seems muslim countries after 1000 yrs are still cesspools. The ME countries have barely changed over the last 1000 yrs. And if you don't like it here.........................

Edited April 25, 2017 by PIK

[hot enough]

5 minutes ago, PIK said:

Whitey built this country in 150 yrs, while it seems muslim countries after 1000 yrs are still cesspools. The ME countries have barely changed over the last 1000 yrs. 

Whitey committed genocide "building" this country. More racist based support for the illegal invasions, the murders of the OTHERS. Nice guys you all are. 

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, hot enough said:

Whitey committed genocide "building" this country. More racist based support for the illegal invasions, the murders of the OTHERS. Nice guys you all are. 

 

No genocides have ever occurred in Canada.

[Argus]

It occurred to me the other night, that in regard to Haitdt's social values testing, what liberals have done, essentially is made embracing diversity a matter of moral imperative. Thus was multiculturalism born. Which means they have taken something THEY believe is of highest moral importance - without regard to consequences - and basically made it mandatory throughout society 

Yet as Haidt teaches, conservatives don't embrace change and diversity with nearly as much enthusiasm. They feel more emotionally comfortable and secure in tradition, familiarity and dependability. And what liberals in media, academia and government have done is decree that conservative views on social morality - which unlike liberal views take into account ingroup/loyalty are actually IMmoral, in effect, imposing their own social morality on conservatives.

With respect to immigration this leads to the liberal media/political elites delighting in massive immigration of people from a vast array of cultures which bear little similarity to ours, which are, in fact, even hostile to ours largely in order to indulge their delight in change and novelty and in spite of economic evidence which suggests this is costly to our economy and causes disruption to our culture.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Argus

[hot enough]

8 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

No genocides have ever occurred in Canada.

You are so un-genge.