The Ill feeling between left and right on immigration

Omni · April 24, 2017

4 minutes ago, Argus said:

If you got a couple of minutes to go over a file there's not much chance of noticing a bad smell. I posted this previously, TO YOU.

The reason for the lack of interviews is the focus on achieving predetermined quotas. The immigration bureaucracy, led by immigration ministers of different stripes, has put greater importance on the number of people who are admitted to Canada each year, rather than ensuring that those who are admitted will integrate well into our communities.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/23559-this-week-in-islam/?do=findComment&comment=1222698

Yes and I sent this back to you. I especially agree with his comment that Kellie Lietch's suggestion is nothing more than " a solution going in search of a problem"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/kellie-leitch-misses-the-point-about-immigration/article32804170/

dialamah · April 24, 2017

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

We do NOT screen them except for criminal records. And speaking of failing to break Canadian laws...

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawas-most-wanted-have-you-seen-these-men

LOL. How about I post all the pics of all the immigrants who have never broken any laws at all. Will that prove to you that the vast majority of immigrants are law-abiding?

Omni · April 24, 2017

9 minutes ago, dialamah said:

LOL. How about I post all the pics of all the immigrants who have never broken any laws at all. Will that prove to you that the vast majority of immigrants are law-abiding?

It will prove it, but I doubt the proof will be accepted.

Bonam · April 24, 2017

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

What about people like Betsy or Blackbird, who do not 'prefer' Canada's secular law but would prefer to install some kind of Christian-based system. Why do they get to be a Canadian with different views than mine, but a Muslim does not? As long as Betsy and Blackbird and other Christians like them follow the law, they are entitled to believe that abortion is wrong, gays are disapproved by God (and can be cured) and that women should submit to men. Same with Muslims, even if I disagree with what they believe.

Presumably because they are already here. Just like Muslims who are already here are also free to believe whatever they want. But it doesn't mean we want to bring in lots more of either.

dialamah · April 24, 2017

43 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I'm sorry I have to dignify this by posting the links for you.

I was confused by this at first, why you'd think you were dignifying anything. Then I read both articles and I see the blogger, who was also there, failed to see a crazed mob 10s or 100s strong; the blogger did see that she was being manhandled (at the very least) and that she was quickly rescued by Egyptian males who took her to safety... Fully dressed, if somewhat mussed. This account certainly is very different fdrom Lara's account and would not fit the view you prefer of Muslims, I guess. But thanks for posting it despite your distaste.

My opinion: clearly, Lara experienced something that frightened her, and I hope she is lying about the degree of violence she experienced because nobody should have to live with that.

dialamah · April 24, 2017

13 minutes ago, Bonam said:

Just like Muslims who are already here are also free to believe whatever they want. But it doesn't mean we want to bring in lots more of either.

Perhaps we need to also forbid fundamental, conservative Christians from growing their numbers too, so we can assure ourselves we aren't allowing people to choose unCanadian values.

Goddess · April 24, 2017

14 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I was confused by this at first, why you'd think you were dignifying anything. Then I read both articles and I see the blogger, who was also there, failed to see a crazed mob 10s or 100s strong; the blogger did see that she was being manhandled (at the very least) and that she was quickly rescued by Egyptian males who took her to safety... Fully dressed, if somewhat mussed. This account certainly is very different fdrom Lara's account and would not fit the view you prefer of Muslims, I guess. But thanks for posting it despite your distaste.

My opinion: clearly, Lara experienced something that frightened her, and I hope she is lying about the degree of violence she experienced because nobody should have to live with that.

My distaste is that the articles are typical victim blaming - "I didn't see anything bad happening so therefore she is lying." and "She shouldn't have been there in the first place, therefore deserves what she got."

Why would you hope that she is a liar?

Maybe read her account and the account of those who were with her. This person may not have seen all of what happened, but her rescuers confirm she was naked and beaten and only she herself can say whether she was penetrated once or mulltiple times. She was hospitalized and couldn't work for many months.

Why would a reporter who had previously sympathized with Muslim struggles make this up?

Why would you say you hope she's a liar?

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This account certainly is very different fdrom Lara's account and would not fit the view you prefer of Muslims,

I'm surprisednotsurprised by your comments. Could it be that you prefer the liar version because it fits the view you prefer of Muslims?

I prefer to believe her, not because of any view of Muslims but because I see no reason why she would have lied. Or why those with her would have supported her in lying.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Goddess

Goddess · April 24, 2017

22 minutes ago, Goddess said:

that she was quickly rescued by Egyptian males who took her to safety... Fully dressed, if somewhat mussed.

This may be what the witness saw, but I believe this was the beginning of the attack they saw, not the end. It was a 40 minute attack.

The males were not "taking her to safety". Quite the opposite.

Really surprised anyone would prefer the narrative that she made it up. But then, I did read her account and the accounts of those with her. And my first reaction to a woman's rape experience is not to suggest they are lying.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Goddess

Bonam · April 25, 2017

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Perhaps we need to also forbid fundamental, conservative Christians from growing their numbers too, so we can assure ourselves we aren't allowing people to choose unCanadian values.

I dislike religion. All religion, Christianity most certainly included. I would be happiest if no one believed in all these dumbass fairy tales that have caused so much harm throughout human history. That said, I don't support violent or discriminatory solutions towards that end, what I hope for is that religious idiocy will slowly wither away. In Western countries we've done pretty well with reducing the role of religion to a mostly voluntary one, people can associate with religious institutions if they want, or they can not give a damn about religion if they want. That separation took hundreds of years to become an accepted part of the culture, and is still not fully accepted in some places, US "bible belt" states for example.

Today, we are bringing in vast numbers of people from places where that kind of separation is not the norm and not part of the culture. They come from places where religion is essentially compulsory, and where irreverence to religion is met with outrage and, often, serious punishment. If we stopped bringing more of them in now, I expect that over the next several generations, their children would slowly adopt the voluntary mindset towards religion that most Canadians hold. However, at present rates of immigration, it is entirely unclear if that will happen, or if instead Canadian culture will shift to more closely resemble that of these origin countries.

I want the fragile progress that Western civilization has made to draw the line against religious tyranny to be preserved and strengthened, not to be sacrificed for the sake of political correctness or dubious and unproven economic benefits.

Michael Hardner · April 25, 2017

12 minutes ago, Bonam said:

I want the fragile progress that Western civilization has made to draw the line against religious tyranny to be preserved and strengthened, not to be sacrificed for the sake of political correctness or dubious and unproven economic benefits.

I know of a country where about 75% of the citizens find homosexuality morally unacceptable. Should we accept citizens from there ?

dialamah · April 25, 2017

2 hours ago, Goddess said:

My distaste is that the articles are typical victim blaming - "I didn't see anything bad happening so therefore she is lying."

1

Well, it seems pointless to debate exactly what happened. Either Lara is lying and Temoris Grecko (the blogger) Benjamin Starr, Amr Fekry, and Abdulrahman Elsayed are not or vice versa. Or possibly something happened after Elsayed and several other young men delivered her to the soldiers are the Museum Military post. Or perhaps these witnesses saw a different blonde woman being harassed and have mistaken her for Lara. In any case, the comments in the first blog post and in the follow-up are quite interesting reading.

3 hours ago, Goddess said:

"She shouldn't have been there in the first place, therefore deserves what she got."

Didn't see that in Temoris's article; did see her say that journalists tend to try to keep a low profile in those kinds of situations and that Lara may have drawn attention to herself by the way in which she was dressed, the fact that she was with a well-recognized media outlet.

Another interesting first-person event in Tahrir Square the night Mubarek stepped down, here.

Quote

In an instinctive response, I wanted to smack the molesters, but they disappeared fast. Touching and pulling went on for some minutes when people around me started to notice what was happening.

My Egyptian friends and other friendly Egyptians closed the space around me, and gave precise instructions: while I was pulled forward, they told me to finger point to those people who were molesting me. They looked different from the bright, celebrating faces. After taking me out of the crowd, my new bodyguards turned against the attackers. An awful quarrel started.

dialamah · April 25, 2017

3 hours ago, Goddess said:

This may be what the witness saw, but I believe this was the beginning of the attack they saw, not the end. It was a 40 minute attack.

The males were not "taking her to safety". Quite the opposite.

One of the witnesses was involved in taking her (or someone) to safety. So the attack as Lara described either did not happen, or happened after she was taken to the soldiers at the Museum Military post, or the witnesses saw and were involved in rescuing someone different.

Quote

Really surprised anyone would prefer the narrative that she made it up. But then, I did read her account and the accounts of those with her. And my first reaction to a woman's rape experience is not to suggest they are lying.

I read the only account I found, which was hers; one person (her producer, I think?) said he saw her after but did not mention her being naked.

I think women's claims of assault should be believed as well but if a witness or four comes forward and says "That's not what I saw", then I think it's ok to take that into account as well. Certainly, something happened to Lara that was traumatic - I'm just not sure what it was, exactly. I would only hope she's making it up because I wish that didn't happen to her, whatever it was. Whether she was groped and harassed by a large group, or groped, harassed and stripped naked - it must have been absolutely terrifying for her.

Argus · April 25, 2017

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

I think they have a backlog because they do a thorough job of checking the applications.

The information I have posted says otherwise.

“In a busy Asian office, an officer who dealt exclusively with visitor visas said that she was expected to make seventy-five decisions a day, which translated to about three minutes per file, not including the time she devoted to writing up her notes in the database.

In the same office, another officer who handled temporary foreign workers said, ‘I spend about five to seven minutes per file’…. In another Asian office, a Canada-based officer said that she makes about 100 decisions a week on all types of temporary resident files but was being pressured to increase that to 75 a day. She noted that a locally engaged non-immigrant officer in her office made over 14,000 decisions in 2011 alone, compared to her own 4,400.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/26254-immigration-of-religious-fanatics/?do=findComment&comment=1211531

Edited April 25, 2017 by Argus

Argus · April 25, 2017

4 hours ago, Omni said:

Yes and I sent this back to you. I especially agree with his comment that Kellie Lietch's suggestion is nothing more than " a solution going in search of a problem"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/kellie-leitch-misses-the-point-about-immigration/article32804170/

Here's an idea. We re-institute the screening and we don't let foreigners sue us because they think it was unfair. How complicated is that? We owe foreigners precisely NOTHING. We screened them and we decided no. Thanks for applying. We've decided to go with another applicant. There, problem of being sued solved.

As for the 'problem of coming up with a universal set of values' being impossible. I don't think so. We're not looking to screen out anyone who isn't a fanatic about something. Is it a universal value we don't kill homosexuals? I think it is. Is it a universal value we don't beat up our wives whenever we feel like it, or execute people for blaspheme? I'm pretty sure that's the case.

Argus · April 25, 2017

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

LOL. How about I post all the pics of all the immigrants who have never broken any laws at all. Will that prove to you that the vast majority of immigrants are law-abiding?

Did I suggest all immigrants were breaking the law? I was simply countering your silly point about immigrants failing to break Canadian laws.

Argus · April 25, 2017

38 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I know of a country where about 75% of the citizens find homosexuality morally unacceptable. Should we accept citizens from there ?

With proper screening we could. But even the Russians don't want to execute gays.

Michael Hardner · April 25, 2017

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

With proper screening we could. But even the Russians don't want to execute gays.

So you are clearly good at picking criteria that will exclude countries you don't like.

dialamah · April 25, 2017

31 minutes ago, Bonam said:

I dislike religion. All religion, Christianity most certainly included. I would be happiest if no one believed in all these dumbass fairy tales that have caused so much harm throughout human history. That said, I don't support violent or discriminatory solutions towards that end, what I hope for is that religious idiocy will slowly wither away. In Western countries we've done pretty well with reducing the role of religion to a mostly voluntary one, people can associate with religious institutions if they want, or they can not give a damn about religion if they want. That separation took hundreds of years to become an accepted part of the culture, and is still not fully accepted in some places, US "bible belt" states for example.

1

I just want to say that I agree with you more than I don't.

Quote

Today, we are bringing in vast numbers of people from places where that kind of separation is not the norm and not part of the culture. They come from places where religion is essentially compulsory, and where irreverence to religion is met with outrage and, often, serious punishment. If we stopped bringing more of them in now, I expect that over the next several generations, their children would slowly adopt the voluntary mindset towards religion that most Canadians hold. However, at present rates of immigration, it is entirely unclear if that will happen, or if instead Canadian culture will shift to more closely resemble that of these origin countries.

I think "vast numbers" is relative. There are about 35 million people in Canada and just over 1 million Muslims.

But aside from that, I think the error people are making is assuming that the most conservative people choose to come to Canada. Why would they? They aren't as ignorant as so many like to think: they have access to social media, to our television programs, they watch our elections and they read our media outlets. They have a pretty good idea of what they're choosing, so even before they apply they've figured out that gays are tolerated and women are equal. They may assume or hope or expect that their own family will maintain their 'home-country' values, but they may also be eager to experience a more liberal society.

Perhaps if all the immigrants were being lifted, willy-nilly, from small villages where they have no internet and rampant illiteracy, this fear of extreme conservatism amongst Muslims emigrating to Canada would be warranted. But that's not the case, except possibly in the case of refugees - but even they are given a choice of emigrating to a liberal country or staying where they are closer to home/family. Given what even Argus has posted about conservative vs. liberal, surely it must be clear that the majority of immigrants are going to be of the 'open' variety - open to new experience, open to new cultures, open to what Canada offers for personal freedom. Many conservatives have alluded to this in their fear that immigrants will choose to vote for a 'progressive' party instead of 'conservative' party, even though the rate of immigration has remained essentially unchanged regardless of whether liberals or conservatives are in charge.

Refugees are a different matter, of course, so their level of conservatism may well be higher. Still, even they are given a choice and many choose to stay close to home, close to what's familiar. Even if they are more conservative, they comprise only 10% of the total number of immigrants we accept each year.

Quote

I want the fragile progress that Western civilization has made to draw the line against religious tyranny to be preserved and strengthened, not to be sacrificed for the sake of political correctness or dubious and unproven economic benefits.

Religious tyranny is more likely from Christians than Muslims, imo. Look at what is happening in Republican states: laws against gays and abortion are constantly being proposed and passed. Each time the religious right wins a 'Christian' court case, it goes for another. It's a constant battle, one that many people are entirely unaware of. Consider how happy the religious right is with Trump: they see him as their ticket to a 'Christian' nation - one that oppresses gays, women and anyone who believes 'differently'.

dialamah · April 25, 2017

6 minutes ago, Argus said:

Did I suggest all immigrants were breaking the law? I was simply countering your silly point about immigrants failing to break Canadian laws.

You're right: I forgot to say the vast majority of immigrants fail to break Canadian laws. Just like the vast majority of born-in-Canada Canadians fail to break Canadian laws.

bush_cheney2004 · April 25, 2017

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

....Religious tyranny is more likely from Christians than Muslims, imo. Look at what is happening in Republican states: laws against gays and abortion are constantly being proposed and passed. Each time the religious right wins a 'Christian' court case, it goes for another. It's a constant battle, one that many people are entirely unaware of. Consider how happy the religious right is with Trump: they see him as their ticket to a 'Christian' nation - one that oppresses gays, women and anyone who believes 'differently'.

But even more so in Canada, where the ongoing fight over public funding for religious schools has flared up again and abortions are still very difficult to get in PEI. It's a constant battle.....immigrants may wonder what kind of backward nation they have chosen.

Edited April 25, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

dialamah · April 25, 2017

6 minutes ago, Argus said:

With proper screening we could. But even the Russians don't want to execute gays.

Egypt doesn't want to execute gays either; they just jail them - like Russia does. Nigeria imposes the death penalty; half of Nigeria is Christian. Do Nigerian Christians have to pass a 'values' test?

dialamah · April 25, 2017

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

But even more so in Canada, where the ongoing fight over public funding for religious schools has flared up again and abortions are still very difficult to get in PEI. It's a constant battle.....immigrants may wonder what kind of backward nation they have chosen.

Glad your bot is working so well, alerting you to any reference to the States.

But, since you have chosen to weigh in - not "even more so". PEI is just one province; how many republican states do you have who are doing their damndest to erode the rights of gays and women?

bush_cheney2004 · April 25, 2017

Just now, dialamah said:

Glad your bot is working so well, alerting you to any reference to the States.

But, since you have chosen to weigh in - not "even more so". PEI is just one province; how many republican states do you have who are doing their damndest to erode the rights of gays and women?

Off topic, but you had to go there, so reap the reward. Other provinces and territories are also "abortion challenged", some sending women to very Republican states for abortions instead. Thousands of Canadian women were going to the "states" each year until passports were required. Many still do.

Canada's backward ways for religious preferences and discrimination do not go unnoticed by emigres or citizens. Motion M-103 is a fine example of the half-ass, politically motivated discrimination that is not only tolerated in Canada, but now openly encouraged.

dialamah · April 25, 2017

12 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Off topic, but you had to go there, so reap the reward. Other provinces and territories are also "abortion challenged", some sending women to very Republican states for abortions instead. Thousands of Canadian women were going to the "states" each year until passports were required. Many still do.

Canada's backward ways for religious preferences and discrimination do not go unnoticed by emigres or citizens. Motion M-103 is a fine example of the half-ass, politically motivated discrimination that is not only tolerated in Canada, but now openly encouraged.

You are probably right. I am certain I could get an abortion if I wanted, other than PEI, I'm unaware of any controversy about abortion. But my point still stands: we're more likely to experience religious tyranny under the religious right than under Muslims.

bush_cheney2004 · April 25, 2017

8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

You are probably right. I am certain I could get an abortion if I wanted, other than PEI, I'm unaware of any controversy about abortion. But my point still stands: we're more likely to experience religious tyranny under the religious right than under Muslims.

"Theocratic" tyranny to accommodate Muslim women for segregated pool hours says otherwise, and is only one example.

If not so accommodated, then it's off to a HRC hearing, another creative experience in tyranny, but not from the "religious right".