The Ill feeling between left and right on immigration

[Bonam]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

That's a bad analogy.

It's not an analogy, it's an example. And your reply isn't much of a reply. 

[Bonam]

2 minutes ago, Omni said:

Many of the people who immigrate here, that you seem to be so afraid of, are doing so to escape such laws, so I doubt they will decide to try and rearrange our society into the ones they fled.  

So why not a "values check" to at least attempt to verify that the ones we are getting are indeed the ones that want to "escape such laws" and prefer Canada's secular laws? 

[Argus]

3 minutes ago, Omni said:

Many of the people who immigrate here, that you seem to be so afraid of, are doing so to escape such laws, so I doubt they will decide to try and rearrange our society into the ones they fled.  

I have never seen any evidence that the people who come here are coming to escape the laws and culture of the lands they left. I've never heard that from any individual Muslim either. You are simply saying it because you want it to be true, and have been able to convince yourself that it is.

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Argus

[Argus]

10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

No, but they 'want' to come to a secular society by definition.

They want to come somewhere they aren't being bombed by definition. Most refugees know little about this place before getting here. As to immigrants, they want to come somewhere they can live nicely. As Muslims. They might be willing to put up with a secular society to do so but that doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer things to be more Islamic if possible.

And again, I'm not speaking of all Muslims. Some would be perfectly content or even prefer a secular system. The trick is to bring in those ones and less of the other kind. Something that for some reason the left is dead set against even attempting.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Argus

[Omni]

1 minute ago, Bonam said:

So why not a "values check" to at least attempt to verify that the ones we are getting are indeed the ones that want to "escape such laws" and prefer Canada's secular laws? 

It continues to fall on deaf ears that the immigration system in Canada HAS a screening process, and has had for a long time. This Kellie Lietch addition to that system just makes little sense.

[Michael Hardner]

5 minutes ago, Bonam said:

It's not an analogy, it's an example. And your reply isn't much of a reply. 

How's this: Christian missionaries coming to a sparsely populated 17th century land isn't analogous to today.

[Goddess]

19 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Lara Logan was a lying rhymes with witch, eh?

I did actually just find an article that says she is lying about the whole thing.

Not sure why a woman who was always talking and reporting on the plight of innocent muslims in their struggles, would want to make up such a story.

[Argus]

3 minutes ago, Omni said:

It continues to fall on deaf ears that the immigration system in Canada HAS a screening process, and has had for a long time. This Kellie Lietch addition to that system just makes little sense.

You can lie as often as you want but that doesn't make it true. There is NO screening system in place aside from routine checks for criminal records and to see if a potential immigrant is a known terrorist. That's it. There is nothing more.

[dialamah]

4 minutes ago, Bonam said:

So why not a "values check" to at least attempt to verify that the ones we are getting are indeed the ones that want to "escape such laws" and prefer Canada's secular laws? 

 

What about people like Betsy or Blackbird, who do not 'prefer' Canada's secular law but would prefer to install some kind of Christian-based system.  Why do they get to be a Canadian with different views than mine, but a Muslim does not?   As long as Betsy and Blackbird and other Christians like them follow the law, they are entitled to believe that abortion is wrong, gays are disapproved by God (and can be cured) and that women should submit to men.  Same with Muslims, even if I disagree with what they believe.   

[Argus]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

What about people like Betsy or Blackbird, who do not 'prefer' Canada's secular law but would prefer to install some kind of Christian-based system.  Why do they get to be a Canadian with different views than mine, but a Muslim does not?  

First, I doubt they do. Second, what you are basically saying is a variation of "Look, we have many criminals in Canada, so isn't it unfair to screen potential refugees for criminal records?"

The answer is that of course it's not.

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I did actually just find an article that says she is lying about the whole thing.

Not sure why a woman who was always talking and reporting on the plight of innocent muslims in their struggles, would want to make up such a story.

 

What's the link?  Given that in the story I read she names colleagues who were there, it seems odd that she'd even briefly get away with lying.   

[dialamah]

Just now, Argus said:

First, I doubt they do. Second, what you are basically saying is a variation of "Look, we have many criminals in Canada, so isn't it unfair to screen potential refugees for criminal records?"

The answer is that of course it's not.

 

Wrong.  Neither Betsy nor Blackbird are criminals as far as I'm aware.

What I'm saying that one of Canadian values is that people have the right and the freedom to believe as they wish, as long as they obey the law.   Even if they're Muslim, they get to believe as they want, as long as they don't break Canadian laws while they live in Canada.

 

[Omni]

6 minutes ago, Argus said:

You can lie as often as you want but that doesn't make it true. There is NO screening system in place aside from routine checks for criminal records and to see if a potential immigrant is a known terrorist. That's it. There is nothing more.

All I can tell you is do some research before you spout off.

[Argus]

5 minutes ago, Omni said:

All I can tell you is do some research before you spout off.

I have already posted the evidence, which I know you read because we discussed them earlier. You have posted nothing but a broad overview of the refugee process which says nothing whatsoever about what they do to investigate backgrounds. However, we've already read previously all they CAN do is check criminal records and lists. They aren't given the time or money to actually look into immigrants backgrounds. They have to process those files rapidly, within minutes, unless something really smells bad. Same goes for immigrants.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Argus

[Argus]

10 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Wrong.  Neither Betsy nor Blackbird are criminals as far as I'm aware.

Not the point. The point is you assert they want a theocratic state and then say it's thus wrong to bring in newcomers who want a theocratic state given some Canadians have the same beliefs. My analogy was simply designed to show how silly that is. We have the right as a society to use whatever screening criteria we want on admitting newcomers to our cities and towns. To suggest it's wrong to give preference to those with values more like us, or more willing to adopt our values is quite frankly, crazy.

I posted this earlier and it's largely been ignored, which it shouldn't have been, because, to my mind, it's very central to the conflict between liberals and conservatives on this subject.

In her telling, showily, absolutely insisting on unconstrained diversity “pushes those by nature least equipped to live comfortably in a liberal democracy not to the limits of their tolerance, but to their intolerant extremes.” And once authoritarians are activated, the outcome depends in part on how its conservatives react. If they side with the authoritarians, repressive policies follow. But under the right conditions, conservatives can be counted on to rally behind pluralism and tolerance. One condition is that they feel reassured "regarding established brakes on the pace of change, and the settled rules of the game.”

Thus my alarm. When it comes to immigration, many conservatives presently fear that there are no brakes on the pace of change, and that the rules of the game are being broken.

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Argus

[Omni]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

I have already posted the evidence, which I know you read because we discussed them earlier. You have posted nothing but a broad overview of the refugee process which says nothing whatsoever about what they do to investigate backgrounds. However, we've already read previously all they CAN do is check criminal records and lists. They aren't given the time or money to actually look into immigrants backgrounds. They have to process those files rapidly, within minutes, unless something really smells bad. Same goes for immigrants.

And if something smells bad guess what, you ain't coming to Canada.

[dialamah]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

Not the point. The point is you assert they want a theocratic state and then say it's thus wrong to bring in newcomers who want a theocratic state given some Canadians have the same beliefs. My analogy was simply designed to show how silly that is. We have the right as a society to use whatever screening criteria we want on admitting newcomers to our cities and towns. To suggest it's wrong to give preference to those with values more like us, or more willing to adopt our values is quite frankly, crazy.

 

We already screen them and they already fail to break Canadian laws, regardless of their personal religious beliefs.  That is what we expect of our citizens, born here or not. 

[dialamah]

8 minutes ago, Argus said:

I have already posted the evidence, which I know you read because we discussed them earlier. You have posted nothing but a broad overview of the refugee process which says nothing whatsoever about what they do to investigate backgrounds. However, we've already read previously all they CAN do is check criminal records and lists. They aren't given the time or money to actually look into immigrants backgrounds. They have to process those files rapidly, within minutes, unless something really smells bad. Same goes for immigrants.

I talked to a co-worker about their experience emigrating to Canada from South Africa.  A huge amount of paperwork and a two-year wait before they were approved.

[Argus]

9 minutes ago, Omni said:

And if something smells bad guess what, you ain't coming to Canada.

If you got a couple of minutes to go over a file there's not much chance of noticing a bad smell. I posted this previously, TO YOU.

The reason for the lack of interviews is the focus on achieving predetermined quotas. The immigration bureaucracy, led by immigration ministers of different stripes, has put greater importance on the number of people who are admitted to Canada each year, rather than ensuring that those who are admitted will integrate well into our communities.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/23559-this-week-in-islam/?do=findComment&comment=1222698

Edited April 24, 2017 by Argus

[Goddess]

8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

What's the link?  Given that in the story I read she names colleagues who were there, it seems odd that she'd even briefly get away with lying.   

https://temorisblog.wordpress.com/2011/02/21/rape-women-stripped-what-really-happened-to-lara-logan/

https://temorisblog.wordpress.com/2011/05/05/lara-logan-and-cbs-dont-care-about-racism-theyre-not-helping-the-womens-cause-either/

 

It seems this person witnesses part of what was going on and didn't see anything too bad, so....

Quote

 

I witnessed part of the mob attack against CBS’s Lara Logan at Cairo’s Tahrir square on the evening of Friday, February 11th. I was struck when I read CBS’s February 15th communiqué describing the attack as a “brutal and sustained sexual attack”, and attributing her rescue to “a group of women and an estimated 20 Egyptian soldiers.” This account does not fit with what I, and others, witnessed.

I was buying tea from a vendor in Tahrir with two friends, Amr Fekry, a 26 year old Egyptian call center agent, and Andi Walden, a San Francisco political science student. Then we heard the noise and saw the mob coming. A blonde woman, neatly dressed with a white coat, was being dragged and pushed. It didn’t seem to me she was panicking, but rather trying to control the situation.

Later I spoke with two young male activists who helped the person I later learned was Lara Logan (I didn’t know her before, I don’t usually follow US networks).  They were Omar El Shennawy, a 21 year old teacher of English, and Abdulrahman Elsayed, a 25 year old teacher of physical education. They said they had formed a human chain with other young men to protect Logan, and then delivered her to the Egyptian Museum military post.

 

This person also objected to it being called a "rape"  and goes on to state reasons why Lara Logan shouldn't have been there in the first place.

I want to be clear here:

I DON"T AGREE WITH THESE ARTICLES CALLING INTO QUESTION WHAT THIS REPORTER WENT THROUGH, NOR DO I AGREE THAT THIS WAS NOT A TECHNICAL RAPE, NOR DO I AGREE THAT SHE DESERVED IT BY BEING IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME.

I'm sorry I have to dignify this by posting the links for you.

 

[Omni]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

We already screen them and they already fail to break Canadian laws, regardless of their personal religious beliefs.  That is what we expect of our citizens, born here or not. 

Yes and those are the facts but it almost seems listening to some folks on here that there are suicide bombs going off daily in Canada's major centers. 

[Argus]

Just now, dialamah said:

I talked to a co-worker about their experience emigrating to Canada from South Africa.  A huge amount of paperwork and a two-year wait before they were approved.

So? You think they spent two years checking her out?

It took two years because there's a big backlog. Once she filled in the forms they sat in someone's in-basket for two years.

 

[Argus]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

We already screen them and they already fail to break Canadian laws, regardless of their personal religious beliefs.  That is what we expect of our citizens, born here or not. 

We do NOT screen them except for criminal records. And speaking of failing to break Canadian laws...

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawas-most-wanted-have-you-seen-these-men

 

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

So? You think they spent two years checking her out?

It took two years because there's a big backlog. Once she filled in the forms they sat in someone's in-basket for two years.

 

I think they have a backlog because they do a thorough job of checking the applications.

[DogOnPorch]

39 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I would call this "changing the topic because I can't refute what she said".  

What happened to Lara Logan was horrific, absolutely devastating.  Along with that, both male and female Muslims tried to help, protecting her when they could and beating back the mob, as did the Muslim soldiers who rescued her.   You and Goddess and Argus trying to make an out-of-control mob and criminal behavior by men as the defining characteristics of all Muslims is just wrong.    

 

 

Actually, I have you right where I intended: defending the rapists.