The Ill feeling between left and right on immigration

[hot enough]

10 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Yes, because of your multicultural situation and being atheists, you will likely not be much use in defending our historic Judeo-Christian civilization from the threat of Islamization.   The issue is not about a group of people who are assimilating and getting along with each other.  That is not the real problem .  The problem is the third world immigrants who bring a hostile religion and demand to change our culture to accommodate themselves and their religion.

Right out of the crazy right, breitbart, rebel media, rush limbaugh, Donald Trump, ... .

Even with all the evil that these christian nations have heaped upon the people of the Middle East, nothing of any import is happening, despite all the "the sky is falling" nonsense.

Edited April 19, 2017 by hot enough

[kactus]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

I am not Jewish but see Jews as good Canadian citizens.   They are part of our Judeo-Christian heritage.

Fine....We agree to disagree because I really cannot understand this mindset being so selective. Maybe Because I don't judge people by their religion.

[blackbird]

3 minutes ago, kactus said:

Well according to some posters native canadians are white christians only. If so you are discriminating against everyone else including thise practising judaism

No.  Never said anything like that.  I'm not responsible for what posters say.  I've never heard anything like that anyway.  You're trying to create something.

[kactus]

Just now, blackbird said:

No.  Never said anything like that.  I'm not responsible for what posters say.  I've never heard anything like that anyway.  You're trying to create something.

I think the notion of making Canada only for white Christians and now according to you Judaism as well is very selective and insulting to others who are equally Canadians....

[blackbird]

2 minutes ago, kactus said:

Fine....We agree to disagree because I really cannot understand this mindset being so selective. Maybe Because I don't judge people by their religion.

So I guess you believe in open borders and allow anyone in no matter what it does to our civilization?  Most countries restrict who gets into their country in order to protect the country, but you wouldn't. Interesting.  Many of those people walking across the border from the U.S. in Manitoba might have criminal records.  You ok with that?

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, kactus said:

I think the notion of making Canada only for white Christians and now according to you Judaism as well is very selective and insulting to others who are equally Canadians....

I am not talking about people who are already here.   Immigration policy is a legitimate issue for discussion except with leftists who want to impose their way on everyone else and shut down debate.  Liberals and leftists are natural totalitarian authoritarians who would outlaw freedom of speech.

[kactus]

Just now, blackbird said:

So I guess you believe in open borders and allow anyone in no matter what it does to our civilization?  Most countries restrict who gets into their country in order to protect the country, but you wouldn't. Interesting.  Many of those people walking across the border from the U.S. in Manitoba might have criminal records.  You ok with that?

I think it is wrong to be judgemental the way you are. By saying Canada belongs to people from Judeo/Christians you are saying it is ok to have jews, Christians but it is not ok to have hindus, japanese, chinese, muslims etc. That is utterly and blatantly a racist view.

I am not ok with people with criminal records crossing the border. I believe in a fair system that treats criminals as they are regardless if they are muslims, jews or christians! It is absolutely absurd to define people by their religious identity...

[kactus]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I am not talking about people who are already here.   Immigration policy is a legitimate issue for discussion except with leftists who want to impose their way on everyone else and shut down debate.  Liberals and leftists are natural totalitarian authoritarians who would outlaw freedom of speech.

Here we go. As soon as one is presented with counter argument then the other party is blamed for being a lefty. Don't you kind of think you are doing the same thing here by labelling people and shutting them down?

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, kactus said:

I think it is wrong to be judgemental the way you are. By saying Canada belongs to people from Judeo/Christians you are saying it is ok to have jews, Christians but it is not ok to have hindus, japanese, chinese, muslims etc. That is utterly and blatantly a racist view.

I am not ok with people with criminal records crossing the border. I believe in a fair system that treats criminals as they are regardless if they are muslims, jews or christians! It is absolutely absurd to define people by their religious identity...

OK so you define yourself as a globalist and believe everyone from anywhere in the rest of the world has the right to immigrate to Canada.  You believe in open borders and Canada has no rights as a sovereign nation to decide who comes in.

[cannuck]

15 minutes ago, kactus said:

Who makes that choice that anyone who is judo christian is ok to integrate and whoever isn't it is not ok?

it's all a matter of perception and preference if you are affiliated with the two above and in your head.

I would like to introduce you to a novel concept:  democracy.   If the majority of Canadians want this to remain a Judeo-Christian, predominantly white county, than that IS very much OUR choice to make.

What puzzles me is why it is not alright for us to wish to maintain our cultural identity, whereas virtually EVERY other country is fiercely protective of theirs.   Worse than that, we are the "racists" when we won't bend over and take it up the hoop to accommodate foreign cultures and religions within OUR country. 

Go and spend some time in Saudi Arabia or Japan, THEN come back here and tell me what you think racism is and what is or is not acceptable behaviour here.

[Michael Hardner]

24 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I am not Jewish but see Jews as good Canadian citizens.   They are part of our Judeo-Christian heritage.

This is a new term made up to create an easier line of xenophobia to defend, in my experience.

You have already exchewed multiculturalism and religious differences, so using the term 'Judeo-Christian' is just wallpapering over incorrect ideas of "good" and "bad" groups based on religion only.  Is an Israeli Jew allowed into your Canada, being non-European ?

 

[kactus]

26 minutes ago, cannuck said:

I would like to introduce you to a novel concept:  democracy.   If the majority of Canadians want this to remain a Judeo-Christian, predominantly white county, than that IS very much OUR choice to make.

So far you are the only one who has said this but do carry on...

 

Quote

What puzzles me is why it is not alright for us to wish to maintain our cultural identity, whereas virtually EVERY other country is fiercely protective of theirs.   Worse than that, we are the "racists" when we won't bend over and take it up the hoop to accommodate foreign cultures and religions within OUR country. 

There is nothing wrong with preserving one's own cultural identity. The problem arises as one only wants to defines themselves with a certain group or religion. That's what I have difficulty to fathom.

Quote

Go and spend some time in Saudi Arabia or Japan, THEN come back here and tell me what you think racism is and what is or is not acceptable behaviour here.

 

Spent six months in Japan for work and must say I cannot see myself living there because there is no sense of individuality. Everything is attributed to teams and group work. But I do admire them for what they have achieved in their country without having to rely on foreign workers. The West is not the same. We relied for too long on immigration and countries like US reaped and are still reaping the benefits. As for Saudi Arabia no I don't wish to live there. But is that what it comes down to? Compare Canada with Saudi Arabia? Really!? On another note it never stopped the West from doing business with this despicable regime.

Edited April 19, 2017 by kactus
adding extra comment

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

This is a new term made up to create an easier line of xenophobia to defend, in my experience.

You have already exchewed multiculturalism and religious differences, so using the term 'Judeo-Christian' is just wallpapering over incorrect ideas of "good" and "bad" groups based on religion only.  Is an Israeli Jew allowed into your Canada, being non-European ?

 

Of course an Israel Jew would be welcome.  They come from the same Judeo-Christian or western cultural background. Non-Europeans from certain other places such as the U.S., Australia, New Zealand would fit into our culture as well.  The point was well made by a recent poster.  What is wrong with trying to keep Canada as a majority Judeo-Christian caucasian people?  As he aptly said, other countries protect their own religions and cultures.  Why shouldn't Canadians be able to do the same thing?

[hot enough]

52 minutes ago, blackbird said:

What is wrong with trying to keep Canada as a majority Judeo-Christian caucasian people?  As he aptly said, other countries protect their own religions and cultures.  Why shouldn't Canadians be able to do the same thing?

Because Canadians overwhelmingly reject this type of virulent racism. You "majority Judeo-Christian caucasian people" are the ones who started and continued a century long genocide, so who in their right mind would ever consider this same group to have any say in anything that has questions of morality within.

[cannuck]

13 minutes ago, hot enough said:

Because Canadians overwhelmingly reject this type of virulent racism. You "majority Judeo-Christian caucasian people" are the ones who started and continued a century long genocide, so who in their right mind would ever consider this same group to have any say in anything that has questions of morality within.

Who in their right mind?    The majority, that is who.  I don't remember in my entire life of taking part in ANY "genocide" (I should add: my children are eligible for status but outrightly reject anything as racist as accepting it).  Morality has nothing to do with it, plurality does.

Edited April 19, 2017 by cannuck

[Argus]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Are you from Brazil?   LOL     What you believe in is called multicultural marxism.   It would never work for a variety of reasons.  Multiculturalism has already proven to be a failure.  European immigrants blend in and accept Canadian culture because they come from the same cultural/religious background.  Other reliigious groups do not blend in but seem to want to form their own enclaves.  They do not accept Canadian culture very well.  They want to advance their own religion.   So you idea is a non-starter.  You obvously haven't done any research or given it any serious consideration.

Look back to My OP and you find his idea perfectly predictable. He has no particular interest in Canadian traditions, or in the protection of our culture, values or identity. He welcomes change, even if it causes chaos, and his lack of respect for institutions/authority and ingroup/loyalty combine to produce the standard, almost cliche'd anti-Western, anti-Capitalist mentality of the hard left.

[hot enough]

6 minutes ago, cannuck said:

I don't remember in my entire life of taking part in ANY "genocide" (I should add: my children are eligible for status).

Neither did a lot of WWII Germans. Have you then renounced the christian devils?

[cannuck]

1 minute ago, hot enough said:

Neither did a lot of WWII Germans. Have you then renounced the christian devils?

I don't live in WWII Germany under the National Socialist Party, and I have no interest in ANY religious BS of any sort.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, kactus said:

Isn't the underlying factor the racial issues and not high unemployment rates which is masking the prejudice against colour and values??

Afterall both Irish anf English are whiter and closer culture to Canadians as you have repeatedly said.

That IS an issue for both sides. As I said earlier, quoting from Haidr, 'open' types love novelty, difference, change, and diversity. Their virtually unanimous support for heavy immigration is coloured(no pun intended) by that. Were the newcomers all pretty much identical to the main population already here I believe their support would fade and they would consider other things, like the economics of heavy immigration, or whether heavy immigration put downward pressure on the jobs of lower skilled workers.

On the other side of the spectrum, one of the social values of the 'closed' type is familiarity and continuity, as well as a strong attachment to ingroup/loyalty, ie, the preservation and safety of the group, or tribe. If all the immigrants had similar cultural values as those already here, had much the same attachment to secularism and and were much more likely to assimilate without greatly changing the 'tribe' I think the strong opposition against immigration would fade from 'closed' types at least in that respect. But I think if you analyze the economic information, most conservatives would still likely oppose immigration. Well, except that if everyone coming was from Europe their economic success would likely be much higher so the opposition on economic grounds would be much weaker.

Anecdotally, I have mentioned once before how, long ago, when i was on an inter-city bus, a Black guy got on and sat down next to me. My initial emotional response was negative. Once he opened his mouth and started to talk, however, he had no accent, and his attitudes and opinions were not dissimilar to mine. I realized then it wasn't that he was black that had initially caused my unwelcome attitude, but that he was likely a foreigner. Once he revealed himself not to be I engaged with him as I would have anyone else. I have also mentioned before that I would rather take ten thousand Lebanese Christians than one thousand Lebanese Muslims. That is not a devotion to Christianity. I am secular and don't go to church except for funerals and weddings. But my belief is that Christians will likely assimilate within the next generation or so, and Muslims, with their values so hostile to mine, probably will not.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, kactus said:

Not according to Argus who prefers brits to portugese. Both christians one whiter...,

Don't speak for me. I was referencing Haidr, and his social values. Brits would be MORE similar to our culture and values. That would thus make an influx of them less upsetting to those who possess the social value of ingroup/loyalty. You really should look at the video. Haidr is an excellent speaker and the video is actually amusing as well as informative.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Argus

[Argus]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Of course an Israel Jew would be welcome.  They come from the same Judeo-Christian or western cultural background.

Some Israeli Jews would be welcome. Ultra-Orthodox Jews would NOT be.

[cannuck]

1 hour ago, kactus said:

So far you are the only one who has said this but do carry on...

There is nothing wrong with preserving one's own cultural identity. The problem arises as one only wants to defines themselves with a certain group or religion. That's what I have difficulty to fathom.

Spent six months in Japan for work and must say I cannot see myself living there because there is no sense of individuality. Everything is attributed to teams and group work. But I do admire them for what they have achieved in their country without having to rely on foreign workers. The West is not the same. We relied for too long on immigration and countries like US reaped and are still reaping the benefits. As for Saudi Arabia no I don't wish to live there. But is that what it comes down to? Compare Canada with Saudi Arabia? Really!? On another note it never stopped the West from doing business with this despicable regime.

I don't think I am the only Canadian who believes in the rule of law within a democratic institution.

I don't really consider myself part of any particular religious identity or culture, nor am I all that fussy about defining myself by race (although what my ancestry is remains a fact).  My only concern is that Canadians have a choice in defining what they want Canada to look like and BE like - and that at this point in time is very much dependent upon immigration policy.

I can see you actually DID spend time in Japan, as only one with first hand experience would appreciate that the most offensive thing there is to Japanese is an individual (which is why one of my personal heroes is Soichiro Honda).  Unlike you, and most Westerners, I am completely at home and ease within MENA, particularly KSA.  I can fit in very well there, but the last thing I would EVER expect to do or have them recognize is changing their culture to accomodate mine.   So why would I want to change my country to suit them???

[hot enough]

42 minutes ago, cannuck said:

I don't live in WWII Germany under the National Socialist Party, and I have no interest in ANY religious BS of any sort.

I said 'did', that is past tense, as in the WWII era.

Good on you for the second part. 

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, hot enough said:

Because Canadians overwhelmingly reject this type of virulent racism. You "majority Judeo-Christian caucasian people" are the ones who started and continued a century long genocide, so who in their right mind would ever consider this same group to have any say in anything that has questions of morality within.

Since you constantly accuse westerners of genocide, who would ever take you seriously on the subject of Canadian immigration?  I have never had anything to do with geneocide and don't know anyone who has.   So what's the point of harassing everyone about it?  What could you possibly say about immigration since that is the subject, not genocide?

[kactus]

57 minutes ago, cannuck said:

I don't think I am the only Canadian who believes in the rule of law within a democratic institution.

I don't really consider myself part of any particular religious identity or culture, nor am I all that fussy about defining myself by race (although what my ancestry is remains a fact).  My only concern is that Canadians have a choice in defining what they want Canada to look like and BE like - and that at this point in time is very much dependent upon immigration policy.

I can see you actually DID spend time in Japan, as only one with first hand experience would appreciate that the most offensive thing there is to Japanese is an individual (which is why one of my personal heroes is Soichiro Honda).  Unlike you, and most Westerners, I am completely at home and ease within MENA, particularly KSA.  I can fit in very well there, but the last thing I would EVER expect to do or have them recognize is changing their culture to accomodate mine.   So why would I want to change my country to suit them???

I think you misunderstood I didn't say I wanted to change the hapanese culture to accomodate mine. I am just not accustomed to it. I did like every little detail from the punctuality of their Shinkanzen to their hot springs, karaoke sessions and peace and tranquiility and beauty of their landscape. I guess the bit that was alien to me was having my photo taken by japanese girls who were not used to see many foreigners followed by a series of questions about what I liked or disliked about japanese culture.

I don't think anyone is asking about changing Canada to suit foreigners. I just find it a bit racist when someone posted here earlier that Canada is for judeo/ christians as if religion is the determinent factor of who belongs to the "club"...