Targeting Muslims, just a new Red Scare

[Argus]

Just now, kactus said:

Getting into labelling people you don't agree with as 'liberals' is quite lame

Who did that?

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, Argus said:

Calling the tories murderers is silly hyperbole.

100% agree here, speaking as a poster.

As a moderator, there are no rules against hyperbole or silly statements nor could there ever be.  I do like the idea of ALL reasonable posters calling out silly statements respectfully, regardless of their personal politics.

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, kactus said:

The problem with this forum is that it no one wants to concede when they are wrong despite being provided with ample of evidence ..

I see that as a badge of honour, and proof that one is reasonable.  More often I see people making hyperbolic statements and then refusing to back down.

 

But... we're drifting the thread. Let's get back to the OP, hm ?

[kactus]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

Who did that?

Tons of posts I have encountered...It is either lumped as lefty or liberal. There is this tendency to label anyone as if being a liberal is a sin....

[Argus]

Just now, kactus said:

Tons of posts I have encountered...It is either lumped as lefty or liberal. There is this tendency to label anyone as if being a liberal is a sin....

Why bring it up here? What do you think of labeling all conservatives as murderers?

[kactus]

Just now, Argus said:

Why bring it up here? What do you think of labeling all conservatives as murderers?

The topic being discussed here is muslims. If one is not a muslim then they become muslim sympathiser or worse lefty or liberals. Before you know it had the people in the world are labelled as such. Why such divisive tactic when one can argue the merits of an argument and really and I mean really try to see the other person's point of view?

I don't agree with the conservative as murderers either.  It is just a label we feel comfortable and perhaps to a certain extent may be valid when addressing the leaders of a certain generation. But every single person? Common! 

[kactus]

The worst that can happen is extremists in any camp deciding to take on the centre stage and attack the other groups. You can bet your bottom dollar this will feed the fanatic muslims as well as christians and others and inevitably the rest will suffer the consequences...

[Argus]

9 minutes ago, kactus said:

The topic being discussed here is muslims. If one is not a muslim then they become muslim sympathiser or worse lefty or liberals.

When one defends an ideology it's tricky not to become seen as a supporter of that ideology. And it is aspects of the political ideology of much of Islam which I condemn, particularly its view of non-Muslims, its misogyny and the violence inherent in its sharia law. Likewise it's impossible to condemn this ideology as intellectually and morally bankrupt while at the same time expressing respect for those who embrace it.

I'm not saying those here who defend Islam embrace the tenets of its ideology, but at the same time they condemn those of us who attack it and who express disrespect for those who DO embrace those tenets.

Why can I not express disdain for people who believe women are inferior and must always obey men?

 

Edited March 29, 2017 by Argus

[cannuck]

1 hour ago, hot enough said:

A typical uniformed response, gleaned from equally uninformed right wing websites. You can tell where you are coming from by your added comment.

 

your posted:  "When Hitler came to power he attempted to dismantle trade unions and the shell that remained loyal to him; he supported the actions of leading industrialists, actions far removed from socialism which tends to want the opposite. Hitler used the fear of socialism and communism as a way of terrifying middle and upper class Germans into supporting him. Workers were targeted with slightly different propaganda, but these were promises simply to earn support, to get into power, and then to remake the workers along with everyone else into a racial state. There was to be no dictatorship of the proletariat as in socialism; there was just to be the dictatorship of the Fuhrer."

Are you trying to tell me that in the Union of SOCIALIST Soviet Republic, Stalin was a "dictator of the proletariat"?????  Or in Chaiman Mao's workers' utopia (who, BTW, gladly starved 100 MILLION people just for the hell of it) this was the case?    You don't seem to realize that whether we are talking about religion or politics, all of the fooking "isms" are just a plain crock of shyte to get fools to fall in line to the very small band of leaders' hands.  YOU are the perfect foil for such crap.

 

[kactus]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

Why can I not express disdain for people who believe women are inferior and must always obey men?

 

Fair enough! Do it but rationally instead of attacking and generalising that everyone who is a muslim is indoctrinated by the same principle which isn't true. By all means criticise their government but going after every individual who happens to be a muslim is not the way and for sure it will inflame more alienation of their community. 

Do you really think by adopting such an approach it will facilitate the assimilation into the western society?

Edited March 29, 2017 by kactus

[kactus]

6 minutes ago, cannuck said:

You don't seem to realize that whether we are talking about religion or politics, all of the fooking "isms" are just a plain crock of shyte to get fools to fall in line to the very small band of leaders' hands.  YOU are the perfect foil for such crap.

 

Same with any religion...Islam, Christianity, JudaISM even HinduISM. Those fools are from every fooking religion... 

[Argus]

5 minutes ago, kactus said:

Fair enough! Do it but rationally instead of attacking and generalising that everyone who is a muslim is indoctrinated by the same principle which isn't true.

Nor have I ever said it was true. At the same time, we are speaking about some things which are fairly central to that religion, and which polls have shown are embraced by vast numbers of ordinary, everyday Muslims in most of the world's Muslim nations. In some cases we're talking 70%-80%-90% of those polled. Therefore, dismissing concerns as if they are only aimed at a tiny minority of Muslims is illogical.

5 minutes ago, kactus said:

By all means criticise their government but going after every individual who happens to be a muslim is not the way and for sure it will inflame more alienation of their community. 

Do you really think by adopting such an approach it will facilitate the assimilation into the western society?

Why should my criticism be restricted to a government when those beliefs are central to the religion, are shown in government laws across the Muslim world, and which polls show are strongly supported by the Muslims there. As an example, I am no fan of the Saudi government. From all I have seen, however, if you were to immediately grant the people of Saudi Arabia a one-man one vote democratic choice in their leadership they would vote in a government which makes the current people seem like religious moderates.

Islam is not going to change without external pressure. And the people who come here from Pakistan and the like, many filled with religious bigotry and intolerance (just look at what polls show of Pakistan) are not about to reconsider the wisdom of their beliefs if all we do is tell them we respect them and have no problem with their medieval value system.

 

[hot enough]

27 minutes ago, Argus said:

Islam is not going to change without external pressure.

Might I point out that that is expressly against the central tenets of western society. 

And, I might also point out that this is about the lies that has seen 4 million Muslims murdered, not from the west's desires to advance anyone - anyone who believes that is or has ever been the motive of the USA is completely deluding themselves. 

But having said that, I welcome any constructive discussion that might help to end this madness, this new Red Scare. 

[blackbird]

35 minutes ago, Argus said:

Islam is not going to change without external pressure. And the people who come here from Pakistan and the like, many filled with religious bigotry and intolerance (just look at what polls show of Pakistan) are not about to reconsider the wisdom of their beliefs if all we do is tell them we respect them and have no problem with their medieval value system.

 

That is partially true except Islam is not going to change with any kind of pressure.  Read the Quran and you will see the goal of Islam is the complete submission of the world.  How do you change that fact?  It is not inherently something that you can accommodate or work with to change.  Maybe we should look at bible prophecy and see where all this is heading.

Edited March 29, 2017 by blackbird

[hot enough]

7 minutes ago, blackbird said:

That is partially true except Islam is not going to change with any kind of pressure.  Read the Quran and you will see the goal of Islam is the complete submission of the world.  How do you change that fact?  It is not inherently something that you can accommodate or work with to change.  Maybe we should look at bible prophecy and see where all this is heading. 

Why do people keep repeating these nonsensical memes? Where did you learn them but from Islamaphobic right wing websites. If you were an expert on Islam and what it actually says, this post of yours might have some merit. 

It has none. 

You are posting this in a thread which illustrates how this is all just another phony Red Scare. With no shame, I might add.

Edited March 29, 2017 by hot enough

[Argus]

11 minutes ago, hot enough said:

Might I point out that that is expressly against the central tenets of western society. 

What tenets?

11 minutes ago, hot enough said:

And, I might also point out that this is about the lies that has seen 4 million Muslims murdered, not from the west's desires to advance anyone - anyone who believes that is or has ever been the motive of the USA is completely deluding themselves. 

What lies? The reason people are suspicious of Muslims is the daily tide of intolerance and violence coming from the Muslim world. You can try to blame that on the West but it's coming from ALL over the Muslim world, including areas which have never been colonized and where there has been no western military incursions in generations, if ever.

 

[blackbird]

Just now, hot enough said:

Why do people keep repeating these nonsensical memes? Where did you learn them but from Islamaphobic right wing websites. If you were an expert on Islam and what it actually says, this post of yours might have some merit. 

It has none. 

Check the website religion of peace dot com:

Quote Does the Quran really contain over a hundred verses promoting violence?

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter. Unquote

So how do you manage to get around the facts?

[Argus]

7 minutes ago, blackbird said:

That is partially true except Islam is not going to change with any kind of pressure.  Read the Quran and you will see the goal of Islam is the complete submission of the world.  How do you change that fact? 

You persuade people that the interpretation on certain aspects of the religion were a product of the historical time and place in which that interpretation was made, and that other aspects should be DE-emphasized. For example, there is no reason one cannot be a good Muslim while wearing western dress, just as I have known Sikhs who cut their hair and do not wear turbans.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, hot enough said:

Why do people keep repeating these nonsensical memes? Where did you learn them but from Islamaphobic right wing websites. If you were an expert on Islam and what it actually says, this post of yours might have some merit. 

It has none. 

 

Yes it does....the U.S. owes nothing to Islam or radical Islamic extremists, regardless of what "it" says.

Muslims who come to America, (and they keep on coming no matter what nonsense is offered here), will just have to deal with the U.S. on American terms, just like every other emigre.     Don't like it ?    Go home and see how much better it is there...you know...the places they abandoned because it was so great there.

Islam has been in the U.S. for 150 years....the "scare" is not working very well.

[hot enough]

4 minutes ago, Argus said:

What tenets?

What lies? The reason people are suspicious of Muslims is the daily tide of intolerance and violence coming from the Muslim world. You can try to blame that on the West but it's coming from ALL over the Muslim world, including areas which have never been colonized and where there has been no western military incursions in generations, if ever.

 

4 million murdered Muslims since 1990 against the tiny number of westerners clearly points up the myriad lies. 

The USA used as their justification for these murders - the lies of 911, the lies of Afghanistan, the lies of Iraq. 

[Argus]

Just now, hot enough said:

4 million murdered Muslims since 1990 against the tiny number of westerners clearly points up the myriad lies. 

The USA used as their justification for these murders - the lies of 911, the lies of Afghanistan, the lies of Iraq. 

You are babbling. And nothing you've said makes any sense.

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

You persuade people that the interpretation on certain aspects of the religion were a product of the historical time and place in which that interpretation was made, and that other aspects should be DE-emphasized. For example, there is no reason one cannot be a good Muslim while wearing western dress, just as I have known Sikhs who cut their hair and do not wear turbans.

And where do you get the opportunity to persuade people of anything?  Do you go to a mosque and speak to some people?  Why would they listen to you?  The Imam is the one who has the authority to interpret.  Do you think they are going to listen to a non-believer tell them how to interpret the Quran or other holy writings?  Besides, even if you became familiar with the Quran, you are still a "non-believer" to them.  Many of the violent verse are apparently not in a context that you could explain.  Apparently the context is ambiguous and could just as easily be interpreted as applying today. At least that is what I read by critics.  But the first problem is there is no way you can get to talk to them except maybe the isolated individual.

[hot enough]

8 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Check the website religion of peace dot com:

Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter. Unquote

So how do you manage to get around the facts?

Quote

 

Given this violent legacy, religion historian Philip Jenkins decided to compare the brutality quotient of the Quran and the Bible.

Defense Vs. Total Annihilation

"Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible," Jenkins says.

Jenkins is a professor at Penn State University and author of two books dealing with the issue: the recently published Jesus Wars, and Dark Passages , which has not been published but is already drawing controversy.

Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible.

Philip Jenkins, author of 'Jesus Wars'

Violence in the Quran, he and others say, is largely a defense against attack.

"By the standards of the time, which is the 7th century A.D., the laws of war that are laid down by the Quran are actually reasonably humane," he says. "Then we turn to the Bible, and we actually find something that is for many people a real surprise. There is a specific kind of warfare laid down in the Bible which we can only call genocide."

 

I never try to get around the facts. That is your province. Look at all of you folks who are terrified of looking at the science that shows the US official 911 story is false. 

[hot enough]

8 minutes ago, Argus said:

You are babbling. And nothing you've said makes any sense.

And you are, as you always are, running and hiding from the truth, from the facts. Remember, you are taking part in another Red Scare. How much blood do you want on your hands?

[blackbird]

3 minutes ago, hot enough said:

I never try to get around the facts. That is your province. Look at all of you folks who are terrified of looking at the science that shows the US official 911 story is false. 

Are you a Muslim?