Flawed Immigration Process

[betsy]

Lack of face-to-face interview!

How is that? 

 

It used to be that every immigration applicant was interviewed, but not anymore.  Since 2002, only immigrants from the spousal category are interviewed.  Are all applicants for immigration, coming as spouses?

 

 

Quote

 

In the “bad old days” prior to 2002, officers were allowed to award points for an applicant’s personal suitability for Canada. They could  assess the individual’s ability to communicate in English or French right there, because they were in the same room together. Likewise, I interviewed applicants with obvious prison tattoos or gang related tattoos, which was a big red flag. That kind of instant vetting is all gone now.

 

CIC has lost complete control of the selection process, simply because there is very limited human interaction with persons applying for immigration to Canada.

Realistically, the decline in interviewing skills cannot be reversed, as CIC has closed so many offices around the world. Most initial processing, and a significant amount of the decision making, is now made by staff in Canada. These staffers – and it really isn’t their fault – have very limited knowledge of the country and circumstances of the applicants they are assessing.

 

If CIC wants to stop fraud in the immigration system, they should bring back the concept of looking an applicant in the eye when talking to them. Until then, the fraud will continue.

 

http://paceimmigrationlaw.com/canadian-immigration-needs-interview/

 

In this context, what Kelly Leitch proposes in her campaign, can't be called extreme at all.  It's only sensible, and definitely, the right thing to do.

 

What we have in place now - hardly any proper screening/vetting at all  - is, what's extreme.  It's recklessly irresponsible!

Security of a nation and its citizens, has to be the highest priority!

Edited February 11, 2017 by betsy

[CITIZEN_2015]

If true this is ridiculous that Canada accepts people into this country for a lifetime without even seeing them who they are and a chance to assess their suitability and adaptability!!. What is wrong with the system in this country!!!!!!!.

[Argus]

Have a look at how hard it is to become a Swiss citizen, and compare that to Canada. I guess the Swiss think their citizenship has value.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38917130

[Rue]

The law firm you see represents immigrants that line up and will follow the rules when applying to get into Canada as a immigrant. You could find of course other lawyers who will disagree with this one because their clients want it as easy as possible to get entry into Canada.

When assessing what lawyers say on immigration and they make a living on the subject matter, they will have a vested financial interest in taking certain positions.

Then you have all kinds of interest groups that range from those who think anyone should be able to come to those who won't want any.

There has to be a middle ground in such discussions.

With that said, this lawyer is speaking common sense what-ever side of the debate you are on.

If you can't physically interview someone, its just sheer insanity.

The huge cut-backs to immigration did not start with the Liberals to be fair.

They started with the premises we should use more technology to save having to hire people.

That is part of the craze to cut the size of government when-ever possible.

Immigration is nasty area of law. It runs the range of dirt poor desperate economic migrants and genuine political refugees to line jumping liars, fugitives, criminals, every category of human and I would say the vast majority of people who want to come to Canada are seeking medical care, the kind they will get in Canada for free and could never get where they are coming from which could mean the difference between life and death.

Its not a nice area of practice. I had my share of people asking me to make up stories for them.

If you represent legitimate immigrant applicants and you see how easy it is to jump the line to age into Canada what do you say to your client? They tell you its crazy for them to play by the rules as it only disadvantages them.

Immigration has to juggle concepts of state security, what the economic needs of the country are that would be best met by the immigrant's skills. their chances of becoming a contributor in a positive way to  Canada, and inversely the likelihood of them becoming a burden on the state due to lack of skills, and yes physical and mental disability.

All of that has to be considered.

Its an emotional debate because most jump to extreme generalizations either for or against immigration.

The fact is we need immigrants to replace our baby boomers to keep the economy and tax basin functioning. That said, we  also need an immigration system that does not reward line jumpers or bring in people who are only interested in what Canada can give them not what they can give Canada.

On this one issue, I have to agree with Besty its just nuts, insane, sheer stupidity. I totally agree with this law firm's comments on this issue.

[?Impact]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Have a look at how hard it is to become a Swiss citizen, and compare that to Canada. I guess the Swiss think their citizenship has value.

I agree we need to review our citizenship process, I have said that many times already. This thread however is about immigration, not citizenship.

[Argus]

10 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

I agree we need to review our citizenship process, I have said that many times already. This thread however is about immigration, not citizenship.

Perhaps, but immigration leads to citizenship. And my point in posting that was to put some perspective out there. The kind of efforts the Swiss currently go through seem to make even Trump's proposed 'extreme vetting' look pretty shallow and lackadaisical. And at the same time we have Trudeau openly stating that Kellie Lieitch's proposal for face to face interviews to try to weed out people whose values are hostile to ours is 'fringe'. I'm pretty sure if anyone in Canada proposed this level of effort to look into potential citizens the media and politicians would be aghast, and there'd be all kinds of references to extremism and alt-right and racism and anti-immigration. Yet the Swiss are a pretty moderate bunch, though careful.

How many of our current immigrants do you think would win Canadian citizenship if we put them through this kind of thing?

Edited February 11, 2017 by Argus

[?Impact]

6 minutes ago, Argus said:

Perhaps, but immigration leads to citizenship. And my point in posting that was to put some perspective out there. The kind of efforts the Swiss currently go through seem to make even Trump's proposed 'extreme vetting' look pretty shallow and lackadaisical.

Immigration may be on the road to citizenship, but there are other paths along that road. The Swiss are fairly open in immigration, limited only by numbers. It is citizenship they are very stringent about. The article you link to is more about the automatic right to citizenship we grant to people who are born in Canada, and that has absolutely nothing to do with immigration. Even children of tourists that are born here are granted citizenship, that is something we should be reviewing.

[betsy]

As for refugees, the following articles might be of interest to some:

 

Quote

Evaluation of Government Assisted Refugees (GAR) and Resettlement Assistance Program (RAP)

 

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/evaluation/gar-rap/section2.asp

 

 

An explanation on Prima Facie status:

http://www.unhcr.org/3db9636c4.pdf

 

 

Guidelines on International Protection No. 11: Prima facie recognition of refugee status

http://www.unhcr.org/544f5b0b6.pdf

Edited February 11, 2017 by betsy

[H10]

Explain to me how interviewing someone face to face would allegedly stop any purported fraud?

[capricorn]

19 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Even children of tourists that are born here are granted citizenship, that is something we should be reviewing.

Agree fully. As you are probably aware, babies born over Canadian airspace are also automatically granted Canadian citizenship.

[Omni]

19 minutes ago, hernanday said:

Explain to me how interviewing someone face to face would allegedly stop any purported fraud?

Exactly, and that point has been brought here a few times but it seems those who are sold on this Kellie Leitch idea have bought it hook, line and sinker.

[capricorn]

33 minutes ago, hernanday said:

Explain to me how interviewing someone face to face would allegedly stop any purported fraud?

I would not discount human interaction so swiftly. Israel has used human interaction techniques in airport screening quite successfully. I would expect the same techniques are employed with individuals aiming to immigrate to Israel. Here is a very good analysis of the benefits of face to face interaction in dealing with such issues.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-wagner/what-israeli-airport-secu_b_4978149.html

[betsy]

1 hour ago, hernanday said:

Explain to me how interviewing someone face to face would allegedly stop any purported fraud?

  You have to ask?

 

Did you even read the article in the OP?  It gave an example how.

 

If you've got Jihad  Allahu Akbar tattooed on your forehead, or the teardrop tattoo of a Russian Mob member - what do you think will happen?

 

They get you with questions!  Inconsistencies in your answers.  You think interviewers are not trained to ask questions?  They catch frauds the same way they catch spousal frauds with tricky questions!

Edited February 11, 2017 by betsy

[Argus]

2 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Immigration may be on the road to citizenship, but there are other paths along that road. The Swiss are fairly open in immigration, limited only by numbers. It is citizenship they are very stringent about. The article you link to is more about the automatic right to citizenship we grant to people who are born in Canada, and that has absolutely nothing to do with immigration. Even children of tourists that are born here are granted citizenship, that is something we should be reviewing.

I absolutely agree. I would be less interested in testing potential immigrants if we were more careful about who we granted citizenship to. As it stands it's almost automatic after a few  years. And nobody stops to ask if they've made any effort to assimilate and embrace Canadian values and culture the way the Swiss do. In fact, the Liberal government plans to make it even easier, reversing changes the Tories had made. Now you won't even have to learn the language or profess an intention to live here.

Among the proposed amendments is a reduction in the amount of time permanent residents have to live in Canada in order to become eligible to apply for citizenship, from four out of six years to three out five years. Moreover, certain applicants who spent time in Canada on temporary status would be able to count a portion of this time towards the three-year requirement. The proposed amendments would also repeal the intent to reside provision and remove language proficiency requirements for certain applicants.

In addition, the new legislation would repeal a contentious provision that revoked citizenship from dual Canadian citizens convicted of terrorism, treason or espionage. With a majority government in place, it is expected that the proposals will become law in the near future.

 

http://www.cicnews.com/2016/03/canadian-citizenship-act-immigrants-apply-earlier-easily-037352.html

[CITIZEN_2015]

My friend's child is sick. She is a born Canadian and so are my parents and grandparents. Her teenage child is very sick and needs treatment. I heard today that government only pays part of it!!!!! She has to pay the rest which is thousands of dollars and she cannot afford it. I could not believe that Canadian government does not pay fully for a very sick teenage citizen while spending hundreds of millions of dollars to bring refugees from abroad who have no association with Canada. I am sad. I m also sad when I see homeless citizens sleeping in the cold in downtown Montreal. What the hell is wrong with our system? In this one of the top democracies in the world!!!!

[betsy]

7 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

My friend's child is sick. She is a born Canadian and so are my parents and grandparents. Her teenage child is very sick and needs treatment. I heard today that government only pays part of it!!!!! She has to pay the rest which is thousands of dollars and she cannot afford it. I could not believe that Canadian government does not pay fully for a very sick teenage citizen while spending hundreds of millions of dollars to bring refugees from abroad who have no association with Canada. I am sad. I m also sad when I see homeless citizens sleeping in the cold in downtown Montreal. What the hell is wrong with our system? In this one of the top democracies in the world!!!!

 

Also, our own indigenous people are living in conditions similar, or even worse than some third world countries. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

My friend's child is sick. She is a born Canadian and so are my parents and grandparents. Her teenage child is very sick and needs treatment. I heard today that government only pays part of it!!!!! She has to pay the rest which is thousands of dollars and she cannot afford it. I could not believe that Canadian government does not pay fully for a very sick teenage citizen while spending hundreds of millions of dollars to bring refugees from abroad who have no association with Canada. I am sad. I m also sad when I see homeless citizens sleeping in the cold in downtown Montreal. What the hell is wrong with our system? In this one of the top democracies in the world!!!!

Correction:

I meant to say her parents and grandparents are born Canadians not "my". But the power of editing has been taken away from me!!!!!!

[Army Guy]

8 hours ago, betsy said:

  You have to ask?

 

Did you even read the article in the OP?  It gave an example how.

 

If you've got Jihad  Allahu Akbar tattooed on your forehead, or the teardrop tattoo of a Russian Mob member - what do you think will happen?

 

They get you with questions!  Inconsistencies in your answers.  You think interviewers are not trained to ask questions?  They catch frauds the same way they catch spousal frauds with tricky questions!

Betsy.....that would be damn unCanadian if we tried to trick anyone with tricky questions. would it be to much if we sub contracted that to say, jordan or maybe Saudi Arabia...they expects at tricky questions.....

[H10]

13 hours ago, capricorn said:

I would not discount human interaction so swiftly. Israel has used human interaction techniques in airport screening quite successfully. I would expect the same techniques are employed with individuals aiming to immigrate to Israel. Here is a very good analysis of the benefits of face to face interaction in dealing with such issues.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-wagner/what-israeli-airport-secu_b_4978149.html

Israel has many measures, many of which aren't public.   I'm not interested in being a police state or apartheid state like israel.

 

12 hours ago, betsy said:

  You have to ask?

Did you even read the article in the OP?  It gave an example how.

If you've got Jihad  Allahu Akbar tattooed on your forehead, or the teardrop tattoo of a Russian Mob member - what do you think will happen?

They get you with questions!  Inconsistencies in your answers.  You think interviewers are not trained to ask questions?  They catch frauds the same way they catch spousal frauds with tricky questions!

This right here is the problem with having a little knowledge, it is much more dangerous than no knowledge.  No serious muslim jihadi would ever have a tattoo because tattoo are forbidden or haram in Islam.  You are just making comments on the spot with no actual evidence.  The interview skills of the CIC officers have declined so far that they have no real ability to conduct interviews.  And determining french or English proficiency on the spot is not easy.  A person who is nervous can underperform, they can get lucky in the line of questionings, a corrupt agent could forward the questions to potential applicants who simply memorize the answers.  We all know they aren't stopping russian mafia members, these complaints about immigrats are aimed at non-white immigrants.  Plus, what is to stop any tear drop russian mafia member from applying makeup to cover his tattoo before the interview?

Why didn't questions stop those 35 9/11 hijackers from entering USA?  No in person interview is necessary to vet someone.

[betsy]

3 hours ago, hernanday said:

Israel has many measures, many of which aren't public.   I'm not interested in being a police state or apartheid state like israel.

 

This right here is the problem with having a little knowledge, it is much more dangerous than no knowledge.  No serious muslim jihadi would ever have a tattoo because tattoo are forbidden or haram in Islam.  You are just making comments on the spot with no actual evidence.  The interview skills of the CIC officers have declined so far that they have no real ability to conduct interviews.  And determining french or English proficiency on the spot is not easy.  A person who is nervous can underperform, they can get lucky in the line of questionings, a corrupt agent could forward the questions to potential applicants who simply memorize the answers.  We all know they aren't stopping russian mafia members, these complaints about immigrats are aimed at non-white immigrants.  Plus, what is to stop any tear drop russian mafia member from applying makeup to cover his tattoo before the interview?

Why didn't questions stop those 35 9/11 hijackers from entering USA?  No in person interview is necessary to vet someone.

 

Of course nothing is 100% guaranteed.  How many would-be terrorists were denied entry by interaction?  How many  lives saved because of it? You don't, and you won't know that either.

 

We don't know what other methods they use for interaction.  It's a specialized field.  Of course, if we hadn't been doing that for decades, our officers will need training. 

Israel has been doing an excellent job since theirs' is borne out of real necessity - their survival  pretty much depends on who they let in.  We could learn a thing or two from them.

You mentioned corruption - I wouldn't count that out. 

 

Edited February 12, 2017 by betsy

[H10]

7 hours ago, betsy said:

 

Of course nothing is 100% guaranteed.  How many would-be terrorists were denied entry by interaction?  How many  lives saved because of it? You don't, and you won't know that either.

 

We don't know what other methods they use for interaction.  It's a specialized field.  Of course, if we hadn't been doing that for decades, our officers will need training. 

Israel has been doing an excellent job since theirs' is borne out of real necessity - their survival  pretty much depends on who they let in.  We could learn a thing or two from them.

You mentioned corruption - I wouldn't count that out. 

 

failing 35 times out of 35 is  huge failure rate that it don't matter. All those techniques failed on 35 terrorist!  Israel still has terror attacks, the Israelis have essentially setup a police state. They monitor communications of all palestinians, so its much easier to catch terrorist because they essential are policing them, hey know who they are, where they live, they have an army of double agents, it is often just the process of matching a name to a face so those in person interviews work.  We don't have 10,000 double agents in syria do we?

[betsy]

13 minutes ago, hernanday said:

failing 35 times out of 35 is  huge failure rate that it don't matter. All those techniques failed on 35 terrorist!  Israel still has terror attacks, the Israelis have essentially setup a police state. They monitor communications of all palestinians, so its much easier to catch terrorist because they essential are policing them, hey know who they are, where they live, they have an army of double agents, it is often just the process of matching a name to a face so those in person interviews work.  We don't have 10,000 double agents in syria do we?

Who's talking about double agents in Syria?  I'm saying interrogators or interviewers are trained for that purpose.  It is a specialized field.

If it's not worth the effort, why do we have face-to-face interaction for those applying for spousal visa?  If they can do it for spousal - they can do it for all!

Edited February 12, 2017 by betsy

[H10]

10 hours ago, betsy said:

Who's talking about double agents in Syria?  I'm saying interrogators or interviewers are trained for that purpose.  It is a specialized field.

If it's not worth the effort, why do we have face-to-face interaction for those applying for spousal visa?  If they can do it for spousal - they can do it for all!

No, the interrogations and interviews are useless without intelligence because that is how you catch terrorist lying.  Without the intelligence, then 35 of 35 terrorist can slip through the interrogations and interviews with ease because you never have the evidence to justify stopping or holding them.  Its like police stopping a criminal and hoping he'd confess vs having a bunch of evidence and witnesses.  Without intelligence, interrogations are useless because you don't have the intelligence to know if you are being lied to, and you have no way to prove denying or holding anyone.

What is different about the spousal visa?  INTELLIGENCE!  They have a requirement you submit a bunch of documents, you are being interviewed on a PERSON, who you should know a large amount of information about.  They get to interview that person and gather INTELLIGENCE.  Remove that Canadian spouse and the ability to give them endless interviews and you remove the intelligence and the questions become useless.

[Rue]

On ‎2017‎-‎02‎-‎12 at 3:13 AM, hernanday said:

Israel has many measures, many of which aren't public.   I'm not interested in being a police state or apartheid state like Israel

 

For someone who commended Trump for putting a blanket denial on Muslims from coming into the US I see you are showing your true colours again.

The contributor who suggested Israel has advanced interviewing techniques assumes this is true because they have to and its true but those techniques are the same techniques used by the British, French, EU nations, etc. All of the EU now is on terror alert on its borders.

It is absolutely inexcusable in this day and age of terrorism not to have face to face interviews. The fact you had to ask why they are effective shows you don't understand what non verbal language is and instead of asking people such questions, you need to educate yourself. To ask why is a face to face effective really shows you not only do not want to know why it is, but can't be bothered to read up on the subject but instead to be smug about it.

Next you want to engage in antiquated smeers of apartheid, remember that when you come on this form demanding blacks be segregated from whites. You are something else. You argue blacks need to be in all black schools and you accuse Israel of being apartheid? Lol.

 

[Rue]

On ‎2017‎-‎02‎-‎12 at 1:24 PM, betsy said:

Who's talking about double agents in Syria?  I'm saying interrogators or interviewers are trained for that purpose.  It is a specialized field.

If it's not worth the effort, why do we have face-to-face interaction for those applying for spousal visa?  If they can do it for spousal - they can do it for all!

Yes you are right it has nothing to do with torture. Teaching people how to read non verbal language is a valuable tool. Its used by police, all kinds of security personnel, nurses, doctors, paramedics, animal trainers, on and on. It is a specialized field and its widely used now. Its highly effective.

They have people that can actually be placed in huge crowds or in vantage points watching crowds and pick out suspects in the crowds.

If you talk to people who work for customs, even the ones with no official training, if they have been on the job long enough, pick up non verbal skills. Correctional service guards for sure.

Orderlies and attendants in psych hospitals for sure.

Even care workers in old age homes-they know how to read patients with dementia and pick up a sixth sense.

There are all kinds of ways to learn how to read what someone does not say.

The fact that anyone has to explain to  Hday this is ridiculous. He was being smug about your point.

You imagine anyone running a business and only hiring people by their resume and never meeting them?

Canada's Border security officers totally agree with you.