Flawed Immigration Process

[betsy]

4 hours ago, The_Squid said:

From your examples above:  Being Chinese is a citizenship.  Being Japanese is a citizenship.   Being a Jew is a.......?  

There are Israelis that are Christian.  

 

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Israeli is an inhabitant or native of modern-day Israel.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Israeli

 

But ISRAEL is not only the name of a country.  Israel also means......

 

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the people traditionally descended from Jacob; the Hebrew or Jewish people.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/israel

 

 

 

 

 

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Yes, there are Jews who identify that way based on their culture and not religion.  That might be the distinction you are trying to make...   but they're not from Judea...  they're all over the world.

Of course Jews are all over the world.  That's a fulfilled biblical prophecy. 

But that doesn't change the fact that their ANCESTRY is from Judea!

 

Deuteronomy 28:64
And the LORD shall scatter you among all people, from the one end of the earth even to the other; and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known, even wood and stone.

 

Ezekiel 6:8
Yet will I leave a remnant, that you may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when you shall be scattered through the countries.

 

Ezekiel 36:19
And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

 

 

 

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Diaspora, ( Greek: Dispersion) Hebrew Galut (Exile), the dispersion of Jews among the Gentiles after the Babylonian Exile; or the aggregate of Jews or Jewish communities scattered “in exile” outside Palestine or present-day Israel. Although the term refers to the physical dispersal of Jews throughout the world, it also carries religious, philosophical, political, and eschatological connotations, inasmuch as the Jews perceive a special relationship between the land of Israel and themselves.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Diaspora-Judaism

 

 

 

If you want to continue this discussion, start your own thread.  It's derailing this topic.

Edited February 17, 2017 by betsy

[Omni]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

I choose the facts which are actual facts, as recognized by the vast majority of people in the world, including (gasp) mainstream media. Propaganda sites by zealots of any political stripe will never give you the truth.

So I guess your opinion is they lied about the numbers and that that can't be disputed. Sorry about that but those numbers are recorded. Too bad about Harper.

[Rue]

15 hours ago, betsy said:

Judaism is a religion.

Take lessons from Netanyahu:  Chinese are called Chinese because they come from China.  Japanese are Japanese because they are from Japan.  Jews are called Jews because they come from Judea!

 

7 hours ago, The_Squid said:

Answer my question....   if your ancestors came from England 100 years ago, are you English?

Your question shows you pose identity questions in rigid inflexible terms and to try demand the answers be jammed into the rigid inflexible terms you think they shoud.

Some people whose ancestors come from England would refer to themselves as English. They might also refer to themselves as Anglo, British, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, Saxon.

It depends on the context they wish to describe their cultural, ethnicity or even Anglican or Catholic religion. Why don't you friggin ask them. What a umb thing to do-to ask Besty how others identify themselves.

In the case of we Jews, our identity made up of many components and so when we discuss our identity it depends on the context in which we discuss it. No its not a narrow, one size fits all definition and just because your brain doesn't get that, doesn't mean we have to define ourselves according to the narrow precept you demand it be squeeze into.

Chinese could refer to people from China or Taiwan or people descended from Chinese who live all over the world. It depends on the context. China and Taiwan both have laws expediting citizenship for those claiming to be of Chinese ancestry no different than Israel does with Jews. Is that really so hard for you to grasp. Not all Chinese speak the same language. Some don't speak Cantonese or Mandarin just like not all Jews speak Hebrew or Yiddish. Not all Chinese are Chinese nationals. Not all Jews are Israelis.

Jews can range from atheists (they call themselves humanists) to ultra orthodox Jews. Our religion is as varied in practice as it could possibly be because its so old and trying to define all Jews as following Judaism is hilarious. Our religion is fluid. It means many things to many people. They very point of the Talmud is to design Judaism as a continuing debate as to what it means. It has no fixed meaning. It is structured to continually be debated so its meaning continues to evolve and never stagnates.

You don' get it because you choose to demand people think like you and define narrowly like you and stick to fixed, entrenched, narrow rigid views.

In fact Besty was keeping it quite simple for you and kapow your brain spazzed out or what? Jews are from Judea and Somaria as she said. Judea. Judaism. Followers of Judah. You really want her to come over and read the Bible to you?

Our Jewish collective identity is similar to how Arabs today define themselves or how gays do actually. We share a collective experience of how others see us and u sually that shared sense of collective experience is negative although it could be positive.

Christians and Muslims  have nations like Jews now have a nation. The English nation is Anglican. Scotland of course has ties to both its own Protestant sects and Catholiciism. Irish can be Catholic or Protestant and so can English. You have a point? You really expect her to answer for others how they choose to define their ethnicity?

Why would you ask Besty how other people define themselves. What a dumb thing to do. Why not ask her how she describes herself? She has in the past described herself as a Christian. I get that. Its not complicated. I don't need to ask  her if she means Catholic, Protestant, what-ever. It doesn't mean she doesn't describe herself as a Canadian, pr refers to her ancestors from wherever they came from. She's all of that. Its a fluid definition.

 Do you really think you can get a one sizes fits all answer from people?

You can't conceive that people have flexible ways to define themselves?

Nah not you right. Well  go on finish it. Finish with that tone and line of questioning. Tell me how I should define myself as a Jew. Please. Should I define myself as Fagan or Shylock or the Fiddler on the Roof for you or some standup comedian, or would you like me to define it as a banker, an illuminati conspirator, an apartheid loving cheap             bastard what stereotype would you like? I tell you what, I can handle Besty. At least she understands who Jews are. She gets it. Its a bit about religion a bit about the land we came from, and then its about the code of behaviour we might choose to follow from the Talmud which are the very lessons Christ taught. Its really not that profound. Not all Christians follow what Jesus said, not all Jews follow what the Talmud says. Some Rabbiahs are jackasses, some Priests and Vickars are. Do you have a point?

You do know that in Quebec when someone says they are English it means the language they speak? Is that hard for you to conceive?

 Good God man, if  the way people define themselves is to confusing for you just stick a label on yourself and move on but keep your narrow rigid stereotypes or delineations to yourself.

I never met a Christian who could be easily be defined and y'all look the same to me. I mean there are times I think y'all play golf and drive Buicks, then I realize no its not true I saw a Chinese guy driving a Buick. I did. Even more bizarre I keep seeing Japanese driving BMW's these days. My God what is happening.

When we talk immigration, and Canadian identity, are we not talking of a collective identity? Should we not take the time do define it in our immigration policy so we know what the hell we are? How the hell do we build a country when we are anything? That means nothing.

A common identity has to mean something. It can be fluid but it as to have some common agreed values.

Canada right now is a confused adolescent with an identity crisis and I will tell you this denying its aboriginal, British and French identities or its Judeo-Christian values and aboriginal values is pointless. No we are not a people today that will be served well demanding omen me covered in head to toe, men be segregated from women, gays and non Muslims be defined as infidel and dhimmi. No we won't be served well with 4 wives and lack of separation of church/mosque from state and yes someone has to teach our children what a pee pee and vee vee are so they don't spread diseases and get pregnant. Got that?

Hope so. Lord knows our Queen gets it,

Edited February 17, 2017 by Rue

[Argus]

On 2017-02-16 at 10:39 PM, Rue said:

When we talk immigration, and Canadian identity, are we not talking of a collective identity? Should we not take the time do define it in our immigration policy so we know what the hell we are? How the hell do we build a country when we are anything? That means nothing.

A common identity has to mean something. It can be fluid but it as to have some common agreed values.

I've always maintained that the bulk of us, those who grew up here, do have similar agreed values, within a broad framework. You can see it in how our society functions. Are there riots? Not unless some people get drunk after a hockey game. We don't even have violent political protest. The snooty Europeans have always liked to think of themselves as the most civilized of people, but you get way more violent protest and physical confrontations all across Europe including in France (and I don't just mean by Muslim immigrants).

I was just reading The Independent, and came across some political cartoons. Now you might find political cartoons an odd way to differentiate cultures and values, but I found these political cartoons to be gross, incredibly nasty and mean-spirited, and unlike anything you would find in Canadian newspapers. We're simply too civilized a people for that kind of thing.

Canada's culture and values show themselves in a thousand different ways like that every day, in how society functions. In the polite way we wait to board crowded buses and subway cars, in the fact attractive women in short skirts walk down the streets and aren't harassed, in the fact ultraorthodox Jews in their black coats and hats and Hindus in their turbans and Muslims in their Hijabs can mix with girls in miniskirts and boys on skateboards and nobody cares or shouts abuse at each other.

But that culture is threatened when you import so many people, so fast, from countries whose beliefs are diametrically opposed to all of that, and don't give society time to adjust and assimilate them. When every additional wave reinforces the one which came before them in their certainty that things should be the way they were in THEIR country.

Some people say that's not so great a threat. But nobody really knows what our future will hold like this except that if it turns out badly there's no way to go back and have a do-over. Given the the fact immigrants from our major source areas have been found, by the government itself, to be the least economically successful, a finding which reinforces an early, independent study done a decade ago, I have no idea why we persist except for the narrow, venal political advantage of the political parties involved.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Argus

[Rue]

Is it wrong to say that some of us want immigrants lining up and following the law and coming her legitimately and working hard to get here to expect the system is fair and we don't have a farse at the borders watching people jump the line with zero qualifications claiming they are more needy than these legitimate immigrants?

Who are the real anti immigrants-the people supporting the line jumpers I would argue. They make a farse of both the refugee and immigration process.

Genuine refugees in need of our help don't have coyotes and taxis driving them to the US border where they get out with 8  or nine pieces of luggage-they own nothing but the clothes on their back. They have no money. They are in camps getting raped and robbed by their fellow countrymen in the camps. This country needs a wake up call real fast.

I am not anti refugee or anti immigrant. I am anti people smugglers, coyotes and line jumpers who hide behind the pretext of being refugees to break laws and lie to get here.

Yah good. Portray them as needy and desperate but so are those legitimate immigrants lining up and refugees who really need are help.

Excuse me if I argue we get our priorities right. No this is not a matter of hating refugees or immigrants its about assuring our laws work properly and are not a joke.

Trudeau had to know by appointing a Somali refugee as Immigration Minister, that alone would trigger coyotes to start sending thousands of Somalis here jumping the lines let alone other Africans. That is not racist to say its common sense and human nature. It also didn't take a genius to know when Trudeau could not resist being a smarmy know it all and insult Trump's ban, his words would trigger coyotes to start sending illegals up to Canada. Trudeau is a naïve foo/. He does not understand how the world works and how coyotes work. Coyotes use each and every move by a politician as a marketing tool to sucker millions into paying them to move.

This is a world that has shrunk by air travel and where the desperately poor can get to the countries of the so called rich quickly. The collapse of the border system in Europe is a warning sign that the first world and the third and fourth worlds are no longer at a distance, they are in each other's neighbourhoods. This is what causes revolutions lack of distance between extremes in lifestyle. What we see coming is a classic revolution of poor wanting to be like who they think are rich. When that happens the so called rich either dig moats and walls to block out the poor or they shoot them dead.

Go on those of you who shed a tear for the poor, what are you willing to do to lower your lifestyle to accommodate the poor? You willing to do that? Yah like hell you are.

The same people who claim to be liberal and tolerant of the poor stop when its their own money and lifestyle on the line. Its easy to talk tolerance and compassion like Trudeau does when its not his trust fund or lifestyle on the line After he's done slumming it with the poor and throwing cake crumbs and is out off office back in his elitist cacoon you think the people he does his photo ops with will be in his segregated back yard or the private school of his children or his wife's hair dressing salon. His brother Sasha who produced a propaganda movie about how great Iran was, what does he do exactly for a living? Did he move to Iran and become a Shiite? Hell no he's in Montreal living off a trust fund.

Its nasty stuff to talk about but it has to be talked about bluntly if we genuinely want to be fair to new and old Canadians let alone have a country that functions and is not a play ground for some rich boy to exorcise his guilt feelings for being privileged.

 

[taxme]

On ‎2017‎-‎02‎-‎11 at 4:21 AM, betsy said:

Lack of face-to-face interview!

How is that? 

 

It used to be that every immigration applicant was interviewed, but not anymore.  Since 2002, only immigrants from the spousal category are interviewed.  Are all applicants for immigration, coming as spouses?

 

 

http://paceimmigrationlaw.com/canadian-immigration-needs-interview/

 

In this context, what Kelly Leitch proposes in her campaign, can't be called extreme at all.  It's only sensible, and definitely, the right thing to do.

 

What we have in place now - hardly any proper screening/vetting at all  - is, what's extreme.  It's recklessly irresponsible!

Security of a nation and its citizens, has to be the highest priority!

With this present day PM of Canada nothing will ever change with him. With him all he appears to want to do is open the border flood gates and let them all come in. When it comes to immigration the guy is clueless. Canada is flooding this country with every kind of culture, religion, traditions, heritage and languages which in time will destroy this country if it is allowed to continue. The clock is ticking away. Our British and European ways and values are slowly being replaced. It's wake up time.