Sam Harris on Bill Maher

[The_Squid]

43 minutes ago, dialamah said:

^^^^ Much like slut shamers in contemporary western society and those who ask "what was she wearing/doing" when a woman is raped, or those who object strenuously if a woman is appointed to a government post under the assumption that she's not worthy, if only because a man was available.  Sure, women in western societies aren't expected to wear a headscarf to demonstrate their humility, modesty and submissiveness, but the message is still out there for them, loud and clear.  

So you're saying women are treated just as poorly in Canada than Saudi Arabia?

[dialamah]

Just now, The_Squid said:

So you're saying women are treated just as poorly in Canada than Saudi Arabia?

Nope.  Saying complaining about an *Islamic headscarf* being worn in Canada on the claim that it's misogynistic while ignoring/supporting all the other misogynistic actions in western society is hypocritical.   

[The_Squid]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Nope.  Saying complaining about an *Islamic headscarf* being worn in Canada on the claim that it's misogynistic while ignoring/supporting all the other misogynistic actions in western society is hypocritical.   

I don't think so....    here's why...  Women are treated much, much, much better here than they are in the Muslim world, in general.  That is so obvious that I don't think I need to provide a cite, but I will if you like.  

You don't have to be a perfect society to criticize a place, or culture/religion, that is so much worse.  We will never be perfect.  So, according to your theory, we can never criticize anyone for the barbaric practice of female genital mutilation because of the wage gap in Canada.   That's complete nonsense.

Edited February 5, 2017 by The_Squid

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, The_Squid said:

I don't think so....    here's why...  Women are treated much, much, much better here than they are in the Muslim world, in general.  That is so obvious that I don't think I need to provide a cite, but I will if you like.  

You don't have to be a perfect society to criticize a place, or culture/religion, that is so much worse.  We will never be perfect.  So, according to your theory, we can never criticize anyone for the barbaric practice of female genital mutilation because of the wage gap in Canada.   That's complete nonsense.

 

Yeah, I agree with you.   But to choose a *headscarf* to criticize is ridiculous.  Why waste the time/energy/money on trying to impose a law on something that is so unimportant compared to real issues?   FGM happens in Canada, but the debate is on a headscarf, which many women choose to wear voluntarily.   Slut-shaming causes young women to kill themselves, but some people choose to focus their rage on a headscarf.    In my opinion, there are much more serious issues to address than what a woman wears on her head.  If we address the real issues, then we'll protect a lot more women than we will by criticizing or even banning an article of clothing.

 

[The_Squid]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Yeah, I agree with you.   But to choose a *headscarf* to criticize is ridiculous.  Why waste the time/energy/money on trying to impose a law on something that is so unimportant compared to real issues?   FGM happens in Canada, but the debate is on a headscarf, which many women choose to wear voluntarily.   Slut-shaming causes young women to kill themselves, but some people choose to focus their rage on a headscarf.    In my opinion, there are much more serious issues to address than what a woman wears on her head.  If we address the real issues, then we'll protect a lot more women than we will by criticizing or even banning an article of clothing.

 

I agree...    that's why I questioned Argus' premise...   head scarves are cultural in a lot of places...   I don't see it much different for women in Canada who came from Iran, for instance.  If they're wearing bags, then that's quite different. 

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, The_Squid said:

I agree...    that's why I questioned Argus' premise...   head scarves are cultural in a lot of places...   I don't see it much different for women in Canada who came from Iran, for instance.  If they're wearing bags, then that's quite different. 

 

Yeah, burqas really bother me, from the first time I saw them in Egypt.  But again, I don't know how to eliminate them without making at least some of those women even more trapped than they currently are.  If Canada decided to ban burqas in public and a woman's family/faith required her to wear it, that woman would essentially be permanently trapped in her home.  It's easy to say "Well, she can just leave" but to insist that family pressure makes women wear these 'symbols of oppression', and then claim that family pressure won't keep her permanently at home if she can't wear them just doesn't make sense to me.   One of the ways abusers keep control of their victims is by isolating them; what better way to maintain control than with a law that would practically force isolation on certain women?

Anyway, banning clothing just doesn't seem like a solution, to me, other than saving the rest of us from the discomfort of seeing them.   And luckily, so far there doesn't seem to be any traction for that kind of a law in Canada.

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

Yeah, I agree with you.   But to choose a *headscarf* to criticize is ridiculous.  Why waste the time/energy/money on trying to impose a law on something that is so unimportant compared to real issues?   FGM happens in Canada, but the debate is on a headscarf, which many women choose to wear voluntarily.   Slut-shaming causes young women to kill themselves, but some people choose to focus their rage on a headscarf.    In my opinion, there are much more serious issues to address than what a woman wears on her head.  If we address the real issues, then we'll protect a lot more women than we will by criticizing or even banning an article of clothing.

 

Headscarves were common female apparel among Catholics even in my time in Europe. As long as you can see the face there is no problem. Ditto burkinis. Women should be perfectly entitled to cover up as much as they want on the beach. Men, too.   

 

[Argus]

5 hours ago, The_Squid said:

So you're saying women are treated just as poorly in Canada than Saudi Arabia?

That has always been her claim, that for anything bad you have to say about the way the Muslim world treats women, for however much abuse, even legalized there is, however much rape or sexual assault and harassment, however much discrimination, it's just as bad, or very nearly so in the West. We are not any better than them, and there is no need for them to change.

[Argus]

5 hours ago, dialamah said:

Nope.  Saying complaining about an *Islamic headscarf* being worn in Canada on the claim that it's misogynistic while ignoring/supporting all the other misogynistic actions in western society is hypocritical.   

Hypocritical? No one here has ever claimed that women's lives in western society are 100% perfect (nor mens). No one has ever denied that violence against women (and men) exists, or that discriminatory behaviour exists.

But you know that.

You simply bray on about western discrimination and violence as a shield to hold up to protect the brutal misogyny of your beloved Islam. Whatever misogyny exists in Canada it is one hundred times worse in the Muslim world. Whatever violence occurs against women it is one hundred times worse in the Muslim world. Whatever discrimination against women occurs in Canada, it is one hundred times worse in the Muslim world.

And you know that too.

And you don't care. Your mission here is to defeat any effort at critically examining the failings of Islam and its retrograde cultural values as preached to the hundred of millions of credulous followers around the world. In aid of that,  you bring up western imperfection every time someone points out what's going on in the Muslim world. It's like someone complaining about murder, and you jump up and down waving your arms to protest about the littering which is going on in your neighborhood.

You want to talk about hypocrisy. Just read any of your posts, and look in the mirror.

 

 

[Argus]

3 hours ago, The_Squid said:

I agree...    that's why I questioned Argus' premise...   head scarves are cultural in a lot of places...   I don't see it much different for women in Canada who came from Iran, for instance.  If they're wearing bags, then that's quite different. 

And yet according to that poll larger numbers of Canadian born Muslim women are wearing them. Cultural? If it is cultural it is a defiant upward thrust middle finger to Canada's culture, and a proclamation that the wearers of the hijab embrace a different culture and a different set of values. To wear the hijab is to say to all around you "I'm not one of you."

[dialamah]

9 minutes ago, Argus said:

And yet according to that poll larger numbers of Canadian born Muslim women are wearing them. Cultural? If it is cultural it is a defiant upward thrust middle finger to Canada's culture, and a proclamation that the wearers of the hijab embrace a different culture and a different set of values. To wear the hijab is to say to all around you "I'm not one of you."

 

Actually, it's people such as yourself saying "You aren't one of us".

[Argus]

11 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Actually, it's people such as yourself saying "You aren't one of us".

They aren't. They've made that clear. Nor do they wish to be.

[dialamah]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

They aren't. They've made that clear. Nor do they wish to be.

This is an opinion.  My opinion is that the people who have come to Canada want to be Canadians, even if they do dress differently.   It's interesting how we can both find support for our opinions through that Environics survey you keep referring to, eh?

Edited February 6, 2017 by dialamah

[Argus]

35 minutes ago, dialamah said:

This is an opinion.  My opinion is that the people who have come to Canada want to be Canadians, even if they do dress differently.   It's interesting how we can both find support for our opinions through that Environics survey you keep referring to, eh?

My opinion, unlike yours, is born out by logic. There is, as I have pointed out, no other reason to wear the hijab.

t could be a millenarian crisis or a delayed reaction to decades of bad history, but millions of Muslims seem to have turned inwards, hankering for an imagined golden age. They are contemptuous of modernity’s bendable, ductile values. Some are drawn to reactionary dogma, and preachers while a good number have thrown themselves into political Islam to resist and combat western hegemonies – or so the story goes.

As a practising (though flawed) Shia Muslim, I watch the new puritans with apprehension. So too other Muslims worldwide, the silent many, watch and tremble. From the eighth to the early 20th century, Muslims strove for a broad education (as commanded in the Qur’an), questioned doctrines, and were passionate about scientific advancements, political and social ideals and art. Not even humiliating colonial rule deterred them from the march forward. Now the marchers are walking backwards. The hijab, jilbab, burqa and niqab are visible signs of this retreat from progressive values.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/20/muslim-woman-veil-hijab

[dialamah]

Just now, Argus said:

My opinion, unlike yours, is born out by logic

Whatever.  

[The_Squid]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

And yet according to that poll larger numbers of Canadian born Muslim women are wearing them. Cultural? If it is cultural it is a defiant upward thrust middle finger to Canada's culture, and a proclamation that the wearers of the hijab embrace a different culture and a different set of values. To wear the hijab is to say to all around you "I'm not one of you."

That makes no sense....   My mom always wears headscarves...   she's not Muslim or from the Middle East...   is she giving your Canadian culture the middle finger?

[?Impact]

2 hours ago, The_Squid said:

My mom always wears headscarves...

 

My mom used to wear headscarves in up to the 70's or so. She also had several hats, although I don't remember her wearing them too often. As she got older she would wear more contemporary caps or sun hats in the summer and either a heavy scarf in the winter or wool hat although she tended to stay indoors much more in colder months.

[dialamah]

Are Sikhs giving our culture the finger with their turbans?

[Rue]

15 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Headscarves were common female apparel among Catholics even in my time in Europe. As long as you can see the face there is no problem. Ditto burkinis. Women should be perfectly entitled to cover up as much as they want on the beach. Men, too.   

 

 Yah you tell that to the Quebecois men  who invaded Florida and insist on wearing  speedos and their Elvis Presley wigs. Is it any wonder sharks get confused. At least my people wear boxer shorts pulled up to our armpits to give the illusion of being stream-lined.

[?Impact]

19 minutes ago, Rue said:

 Quebecois men  who invaded Florida and insist on wearing  speedos

That is a doctors prescription for the vitamin D deficiency the suffer from

[SpankyMcFarland]

58 minutes ago, Rue said:

 Yah you tell that to the Quebecois men  who invaded Florida and insist on wearing  speedos and their Elvis Presley wigs. Is it any wonder sharks get confused. At least my people wear boxer shorts pulled up to our armpits to give the illusion of being stream-lined.

When I become Shah of Canada, my first edict will be on appropriate beachware for larger persons.

 

 

[Argus]

15 hours ago, dialamah said:

Whatever.  

Cop-out.

[Argus]

13 hours ago, The_Squid said:

That makes no sense....   My mom always wears headscarves...   she's not Muslim or from the Middle East...   is she giving your Canadian culture the middle finger?

Is your mom wearing a headscarf because otherwise her hair will arouse men, and thus offend God?

Does your mom wear a headscarf as a sign of her religious beliefs?

Edited February 6, 2017 by Argus

[Argus]

I'm fairly certain none of the usual crowd giving their opinions on this topic have bothered to watch the actual video the topic was started to discuss. So I'll print up one part I think is fairly relevant in the conversation between two very liberal commentators.

When you ask Muslims in the UK why they want to live under Sharia law or whether the Danish cartoonists should be imprisoned, you don't get the tiny numbers you would hope to get. And that's a problem we have to speak honestly about. And as you said, you don't have to be a fascist or a racist or even a Trumpian, to not want to import people into your society who think cartoonists should be killed for drawing the prophet. That's a totally rational thing not to want. And the Left has been demonizing anyone who wants to talk about this.

[The_Squid]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Is your mom wearing a headscarf because otherwise her hair will arouse men, and thus offend God?

Does your mom wear a headscarf as a sign of her religious beliefs?

You pretend to know why a Muslim woman wears a headscarf...   that's a little silly.

Someone asked you about turbans...