US vs Iran

[SpankyMcFarland]

One big problem is the US imposing its sanctions policy on European nations and forcing them to give up business in Iran. Theresa May should take a long, hard look at this sort of behaviour before she negotiates a trade deal with the US. 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

One big problem is the US imposing its sanctions policy on European nations and forcing them to give up business in Iran. Theresa May should take a long, hard look at this sort of behaviour before she negotiates a trade deal with the US. 

 

The EU had no problem imposing sanctions on Libya in 2011, impacting U.S. owned businesses.

[CITIZEN_2015]

US has just imposed a historically toughest sanctions on Iran regime.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-22/mike-pompeo-threatens-iran-with-tough-sanctions/9784784

Any European company or bank who invests or trades with Iran will be subjected to US sanction in other words oblitraded. 

[kactus]

3 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

One big problem is the US imposing its sanctions policy on European nations and forcing them to give up business in Iran. Theresa May should take a long, hard look at this sort of behaviour before she negotiates a trade deal with the US. 

Theresa May will take a hard look at whoever offers UK the best deal post Brexit. It’s all about money....

Today the Iranian courts have resurrected a charge against Nazanin Radcliffe a British/Iranian female held captive in Iran since 2016. She is alleged to have been kept in prison on the basis of espionage to help overthrow the regime (thanks to inept intervention of Boris Johnson who uttered in the house of commons that she is training journalists...)

The UK government so far has remained mute on what to do after the announcement by the court today. Given that Theresa May held a telephone conversation with her Iranian counterpart president Hassan Rouhani it is unlikely that she wants to piss off the Iranian government over this matter and where doing “business as usual” with Iran takes precedence....

Edited May 22, 2018 by kactus

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 5/21/2018 at 7:06 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The EU had no problem imposing sanctions on Libya in 2011, impacting U.S. owned businesses.

How much US business was affected in that move? Are we talking Airbus-type businesses in Libya? 

This is Cuba II. The Americans simply don’t respect the sovereignty of their allies. Letting them away with this madcap move will only embolden them. Trump has chosen ME allies over European ones. 

Edited May 23, 2018 by SpankyMcFarland

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

How much US business was affected in that move? Are we talking Airbus-type businesses in Libya? 

This is Cuba II. The Americans simply don’t respect the sovereignty of their allies. Letting them away with this madcap move will only embolden them. 

 

Nothing like Airbus, but that isn't the point.   The EU used sanctions against Libya to achieve its objectives, just like the U.S. against Iran.

As long as the EU remains under-invested militarily and out-leveraged economically (IMF, reserve currency, banking, trade imbalances), it will remain vulnerable to U.S. unilateral actions / sanctions. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

On 5/23/2018 at 12:17 AM, SpankyMcFarland said:

The Americans simply don’t respect the sovereignty of their allies. Letting them away with this madcap move will only embolden them. Trump has chosen ME allies over European ones. 

If they were true allies they wouldn't have opposed the US sanctions. The truth is that they are the Europeans who are knowingly ignoring all the gross human rights abuses by Iran regime and suffering of Iran nation only looking at their own interests in Euros. They are like prostitutes opening their legs to whoever pays them. Btw, US does not impose any sanctions against any European government so they do not disrespect their sovereignty in any way as claimed above. They impose sanctions against any firms or banks or companies in Europe or elsewhere who won't respect the sanctions.

Edited May 24, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

If they were true allies they wouldn't have opposed the US sanctions. The truth is that they are the Europeans who are knowingly ignoring all the gross human rights abuses by Iran regime and suffering of Iran nation only looking at their own interests in Euros. They are like prostitutes opening their legs to whoever pays them. Btw, US does not impose any sanctions against any European government so they do not disrespect their sovereignty in any way as claimed above. They impose sanctions against any firms or banks or companies in Europe or elsewhere who won't respect the sanctions.

I presume you have never bought anything made in China, then? 

[CITIZEN_2015]

On 5/24/2018 at 7:39 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

I presume you have never bought anything made in China, then? 

If China regime like Iran regime is ruling by terror and repression and shoots its defenseless people and sends it secret agents to people's home to arrest imprison and torture and force to suicide people or extract false confessions under severe torture or threat of harm to their families, sends its mercenaries abroad to murder the opposition and threatening their families at home and suppresses women beating them on public streets for refusing to wear hated hijab, banned them from public entertainment like sports stadium, bans artists and singers, interfere in people's private lives telling them how to live their lives, telling tell what to believe, treat minorities badly and suppresses them, beats up and jails union leaders, workers, teachers, farmers and cracks down hard on slightest dessent and opposition, destroys land and sea and, dried up rivers by self interest policies and polluted the air, destroys the country and make its nation to live in poverty while spending billions abroad on terrorism and terrorist groups and protecting murderous people, and bankrupt the country and nation, ban the slightest opposition and warning people if they ever speak or act in opposition they will be dealth with very harshly with a corrupt murderous justice system, ruled by corrupt mullahs whose only interest is survival at any cost and this is their only goal and could not care less about national interest and the well being of its people, creates enemies and rules on hate and war and intimidate its people and uses every available tactic including secretly installed software on pre-sold apps and even paid neighbors to spy on the nation and report, randomly arrest and muder people........... If if China regime is doing all that then yes they deserve to be boycotted too.

Edited June 6, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015

[GostHacked]

2 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

If China regime like Iran regime is ruling by terror and repression and shoots its defenseless people and sends it secret agents to people's home to arrest imprison and torture and force to suicide people or extract false confessions under severe torture or threat of harm to their families, sends its mercenaries abroad to murder the opposition and threatening their families at home and suppresses women beating them on public streets .....

The Tienanmen Square incident.  Or how they treat the Falun Gong followers.  China rules by terror and many other things. Don't kid yourself.

[CITIZEN_2015]

3 hours ago, GostHacked said:

The Tienanmen Square incident.  Or how they treat the Falun Gong followers.  China rules by terror and many other things. Don't kid yourself.

You are the one you is kidding yourself. I mentioned a LOT of things and you pick only two out of 100 and give an example of something that happen almost 30 years ago (Tienanmen Square incident) as opposed t what happened in Iran less than 30 days ago and still happening and will happen and hence concluded that China is as bad. You are purposely closing your eyes to crimes and a repressed suffering nation instead of writing about them and make awareness and also distort the facts just to win a debate!!!!!!!!!!. Shame.

Does China do ALL these things? I make it bold this time so that you can see it clearly.

terror and repression of everyone and shoots its defenseless people and sends it secret agents to people's home to arrest imprison and torture and force to suicide people or extract false confessions under severe torture or threat of harm to their families, sends its mercenaries abroad to murder the opposition and threatening their families at home and suppresses women beating them on public streets for refusing to wear hated hijab, banned them from public entertainment like sports stadium, bans artists and singers, interfere in people's private lives telling them how to live their lives, telling tell what to believe, treat minorities badly and suppresses them, beats up and jails union leaders, workers, teachers, farmers and cracks down hard on slightest dessent and opposition, destroys land and sea and, dried up rivers by self interest policies and polluted the air, destroys the country and make its nation to live in poverty while spending billions abroad on terrorism and terrorist groups and protecting murderous people, and bankrupt the country and nation, ban the slightest opposition and warning people if they ever speak or act in opposition they will be dealth with very harshly with a corrupt murderous justice system, ruled by corrupt mullahs whose only interest is survival at any cost and this is their only goal and could not care less about national interest and the well being of its people, creates enemies and rules on hate and war and intimidate its people and uses every available tactic including secretly installed software on pre-sold apps and even paid neighbors to spy on the nation and report, randomly arrest and muder people...........

China"s economy is prospering while Iran's is in a tailspin as a result of direct regime policies. China is growing and standard of living and freedom improving day by day and Iran's is the total opposite. Worsening economy and less freedom and more repression every day. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS KIDDING YOURSELF.

Regime change BY ANY MEANS.

Edited June 6, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015

[SpankyMcFarland]

Jaysus, Citizen, that was one Joycean monologue.

https://archive.org/details/MollyBloomMonologEnd

You need to put more punctuation in. 

To answer your question, China is a secular tyranny so they're not so big on hijabs but a regime that has been responsible for c. 50 million deaths is pretty bad by any standard. They tick a lot of those boxes on mass imprisonment, summary execution, torture, pollution, crackdowns etc. etc. and yet we all buy their products. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by SpankyMcFarland

[CITIZEN_2015]

It is not a writing skills competition. It is stating the facts and conveying concepts that matter and they all can be conveyed without punctuations.

Are you sure it wasn't 500 million lol?

Edited June 6, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015

[GostHacked]

 

6 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

You are the one you is kidding yourself. I mentioned a LOT of things and you pick only two out of 100 and give an example of something that happen almost 30 years ago (Tienanmen Square incident) as opposed t what happened in Iran less than 30 days ago and still happening and will happen and hence concluded that China is as bad. You are purposely closing your eyes to crimes and a repressed suffering nation instead of writing about them and make awareness and also distort the facts just to win a debate!!!!!!!!!!. Shame.

Does China do ALL these things? I make it bold this time so that you can see it clearly.

terror and repression of everyone and shoots its defenseless people and sends it secret agents to people's home to arrest imprison and torture and force to suicide people or extract false confessions under severe torture or threat of harm to their families, sends its mercenaries abroad to murder the opposition and threatening their families at home and suppresses women beating them on public streets for refusing to wear hated hijab, banned them from public entertainment like sports stadium, bans artists and singers, interfere in people's private lives telling them how to live their lives, telling tell what to believe, treat minorities badly and suppresses them, beats up and jails union leaders, workers, teachers, farmers and cracks down hard on slightest dessent and opposition, destroys land and sea and, dried up rivers by self interest policies and polluted the air, destroys the country and make its nation to live in poverty while spending billions abroad on terrorism and terrorist groups and protecting murderous people, and bankrupt the country and nation, ban the slightest opposition and warning people if they ever speak or act in opposition they will be dealth with very harshly with a corrupt murderous justice system, ruled by corrupt mullahs whose only interest is survival at any cost and this is their only goal and could not care less about national interest and the well being of its people, creates enemies and rules on hate and war and intimidate its people and uses every available tactic including secretly installed software on pre-sold apps and even paid neighbors to spy on the nation and report, randomly arrest and muder people...........

China"s economy is prospering while Iran's is in a tailspin as a result of direct regime policies. China is growing and standard of living and freedom improving day by day and Iran's is the total opposite. Worsening economy and less freedom and more repression every day. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS KIDDING YOURSELF.

Regime change BY ANY MEANS.

The other interesting thing is how much US debt China has on their plate. If China said, pay up... the US would instantly collapse.  If you think the Russians are brutal, the Chinese are just as and maybe MORE brutal. And with how China controls the media and internet traffic, you really think you are going to get an accurate picture of what is going on within the nation? It's called propaganda for a reason.

Edited June 6, 2018 by GostHacked

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, GostHacked said:

 

The other interesting thing is how much US debt China has on their plate. If China said, pay up... the US would instantly collapse.  If you think the Russians are brutal, the Chinese are just as and maybe MORE brutal. And with how China controls the media and internet traffic, you really think you are going to get an accurate picture of what is going on within the nation? It's called propaganda for a reason.

I know a lot of Chinese citizens and Iranian citizens and what I hear from both sides there is no comparison between the two tyrannies. In the latter you cannot even be free inside your own home and inside your own bedroom. The regime monitors citizens inside their private homes and raid homes arbitrary and without warrent even if suspected of having alcohol or having mixed parties or unmarried sex. In addition, Political dessent is cracked down very harshy by using terror and kidnapping citizens and killing them in prisons. In China as long as the citizen stays away from political opposition then that citizen is not in any danger. Not so in Iran. They watch every aspect of citizen's social and political life by a huge net of spies and cyber agents.

Edited June 7, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 6/6/2018 at 8:33 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

It is not a writing skills competition. It is stating the facts and conveying concepts that matter and they all can be conveyed without punctuations.

Are you sure it wasn't 500 million lol?

50 million is a conservative estimate, Citizen. The regime that did that is still in power. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

32 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

50 million is a conservative estimate, Citizen. The regime that did that is still in power. 

Yes it is good that the estimate didn't exceed the total population of China!!!!!!!. I wonder why my Chinese friends never spoke of 50 million deaths but always about a few hundred in 1989 in Tienanmen Square!!!!.

Edited June 12, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015

[SpankyMcFarland]

3 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Yes it is good that the estimate didn't exceed the total population of China!!!!!!!. I wonder why my Chinese friends never spoke of 50 million deaths but always about a few hundred in 1989 in Tienanmen Square!!!!.

Here’s the estimate for one episode alone:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/maos-great-leap-forward-killed-45-million-in-four-years-2081630.html

Communist regimes are just better at killing. Per capita, the Chi-Com crimes may look less atrocious given the size of China but in terms of sheer numbers you’re not going to win this slaughter contest. 

Edited June 12, 2018 by SpankyMcFarland

[kactus]

Regardless of the past history and the mass killings by Mao and the likes the reality is very different today in China!

China today is the second largest economy with a GDP surpassing the GDP of many those “acclaimed countries” that speak of democracy in the West and are the biggest hypocrites....

I think the point of reference by Citizen was to those countries like Iran that used to flourish under Shah and now has been following a backward trend. China despite her communist history has followed a path to growth, encouraging business and investments. Whilst Iran’s leaders have followed a path of destruction and misery by taking Iranians hostage.

Problem lies with countries like UK that by doing business with Iran is like the blood vessel for the survival of mullahs. All this at the expense of indiginious population at large. Bunch of fucking hypocrites is the british government that has long ensued the policy of destabilising the countey for their own benefits....

Edited June 12, 2018 by kactus

[SpankyMcFarland]

12 hours ago, kactus said:

Regardless of the past history and the mass killings by Mao and the likes the reality is very different today in China!

China today is the second largest economy with a GDP surpassing the GDP of many those “acclaimed countries” that speak of democracy in the West and are the biggest hypocrites....

I think the point of reference by Citizen was to those countries like Iran that used to flourish under Shah and now has been following a backward trend. China despite her communist history has followed a path to growth, encouraging business and investments. Whilst Iran’s leaders have followed a path of destruction and misery by taking Iranians hostage.

Problem lies with countries like UK that by doing business with Iran is like the blood vessel for the survival of mullahs. All this at the expense of indiginious population at large. Bunch of fucking hypocrites is the british government that has long ensued the policy of destabilising the countey for their own benefits....

There is a serious problem when crimes committed on an enormous scale are not acknowledged by the country they occurred in. China remains an authoritarian dictatorship run by one man for the foreseeable future and is fully capable of mass slaughter again if that is required. Buying goods from China supports that awful regime. 

[kactus]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

There is a serious problem when crimes committed on an enormous scale are not acknowledged by the country they occurred in. China remains an authoritarian dictatorship run by one man for the foreseeable future and is fully capable of mass slaughter again if that is required. Buying goods from China supports that awful regime. 

I think it would be a gross misrepresentation if you are suggesting I am not acknowledging the crimes committed by one country...Afterall, I did point out the past history of China....

Whilst I agree with you on the assertion that buying stuff from China is supporting an awful regime I think your view stems just from an academic standpoint and has no real bearings in realpolitik. The reason is China is just too powerful for many western countries to stop business. Infact they are quite happy to overlook the poor human rights atrocities of China for the sake of business. It’s the same reason that some western countries support certain awful regimes in Iran for money!!!

Look, we can argue over semantics and disapprove the past crimes of a country. The reality is it will never stop certain western countries to deal with China. Especially now with the prospects of Brexit looming in UK the brits and others are ever more dependent on chinese goods....(Just look up some of the biggest nuclear installations projects the chinese are implementing in UK)

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, kactus said:

I think it would be a gross misrepresentation if you are suggesting I am not acknowledging the crimes committed by one country...Afterall, I did point out the past history of China....

Whilst I agree with you on the assertion that buying stuff from China is supporting an awful regime I think your view stems just from an academic standpoint and has no real bearings in realpolitik. The reason is China is just too powerful for many western countries to stop business. Infact they are quite happy to overlook the poor human rights atrocities of China for the sake of business. It’s the same reason that some western countries support certain awful regimes in Iran for money!!!

Look, we can argue over semantics and disapprove the past crimes of a country. The reality is it will never stop certain western countries to deal with China. Especially now with the prospects of Brexit looming in UK the brits and others are ever more dependent on chinese goods....(Just look up some of the biggest nuclear installations projects the chinese are implementing in UK)

I never said that. I merely talked about the regime’s amnesia. China remains an awful place for dissidents. Pointing to its economic or military power as reasons to trade with it would appear to be a might is right argument. 

I buy Chinese stuff all the time. My point is that there is a continuum of despotism out there and singling out one tyrannical country for trade sanctions seems a little arbitrary. 

[kactus]

10 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I never said that. I merely talked about the regime’s amnesia. China remains an awful place for dissidents.

Yes....A very powerful and invincible one too.  

 

Quote

Pointing to its economic or military power as reasons to trade with it would appear to be a might is right argument. 

Yes, it would appear that might is right is exactly the right argument when talking about a country that has the world's second largest economy and world's third strongest army! 

 

Quote

I buy Chinese stuff all the time. My point is that there is a continuum of despotism out there and singling out one tyrannical country for trade sanctions seems a little arbitrary. 

Agreed....I buy Chinese stuff too. They are cheap and don't last me long...

If by definition singling out one tyrannical country for trade sanctions you are referring to Iran then the comparison does become arbitrary. Iran is not China! Neither economically nor militarily...However, the mullahs have left a legacy of tyranny in that country just like communism in China. 

For the West it is easier to apply the trade sanction on a country like Iran rather than China. Heck, the western countries do not even have consensus on Iranian nuclear deal as was evident by US unilaterally pulling out of the deal. The French are like prostitutes and literally open their leg for anyone that offers them a business deal and the Brits...well they are desperate for business with anyone post Brexit whether it is China, Iran or Saudi Arabia, etc, 

How do you expect these countries to take the moral high ground and condemn China for its past as it "remains an awful place for dissidents" when there are huuuuge business opportunities for europeans that could be lost??

Edited June 13, 2018 by kactus

[marcus]

On 6/12/2018 at 5:56 PM, kactus said:

If by definition singling out one tyrannical country for trade sanctions you are referring to Iran then the comparison does become arbitrary. Iran is not China! Neither economically nor militarily...However, the mullahs have left a legacy of tyranny in that country just like communism in China. 

Trade and entrepreneurship is the best weapon against tyranny. 

The Iranian government, especially the decision makers, will continue to function and hold onto their power even if sanctions are tightened. They have before.

There is a large, highly educated, highly motivated under 40 population in Iran that is already building startups, mainly in the tech industry. If they are given more resources and connection to other countries, they will gain more power and strength and will have a bigger role in the economy. The old industries are being replaced by newer industries. The more connections through trade, the more incentive there is to keep peace. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

The reasons for the regime still in power is the large number of well paid mercenaries who attack the demonstrators with knives and clubs and chains (the basij) and the sepah who shoots into crowds. otherwise demonstrations gather momentum and will become massive and topples the regime. The main source of pay to these mercenaries is oil export. Sanctions only reduces oil exports (last sanctions to half of what it is now), so sanctions alone may not work immediately and takes years and the regime may get the chance to remain in power long enough to completely destroy the country or people may become fed up and armed themselves and civil war may break out (for toppling the regime not separation), but what is really needed is an oil blockage of Iran regime the income of which goes mainly to regime and its mercenaries not the people. US navy is the only navy in the world powerful enough to do this.

However, US's reasons for sanctions on Iran are all for wrong reasons. Nuclear research and development is the right of Iran nation. No country in the world can dictate to iran that its nation cannot develope nuclear weapons (especially those who have maasive nuclear weapons themselves like the US and Israel) because historically this nation have been invaded many times by barbarians and it has the right to develope weapons and defend itself. But the reason for oil blockage should be gross human rights violations by Iran regime not nuclear. There is NO country in the world that they beat up women just because they refuse to wear according to regime orders. Or put lawyers in jail because legally they defend political priisoners or order paid mercenaries to attack crowd of demonstrators with knives and clubs. Or kidnap opponents and put in jail and delivers back tortured dead bodies to their families.

Edited June 18, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015