Evidence and Religion

The_Squid · December 9, 2016

5 minutes ago, carepov said:

However, IMO if one lacks faith then it similar to lacking confidence or trust or having excessive skepticism or doubt, one risks missing out on opportunities and perhaps can lead to excessive pondering and indecisiveness.

Faith is believing without evidence. That's never a virtue.

If I lack confidence in something, I don't believe it anyway! How is that reasonable? What opportunities could I possibly miss out on because I don't believe things on faith (without evidence)

9 minutes ago, carepov said:

Do you believe in human rights?

Do I believe they exist? Yes. Human rights exist as a concept.

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Do you think that "all men are created equal"?

No. I don't think men were created at all.

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What is the purpose of (your) life?

That has nothing to do with faith.

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I think that these are questions of faith

Then you are using a completely different definition of faith. You also keep bouncing back and forth about what faith is.

carepov · December 9, 2016

37 minutes ago, The_Squid said:

Faith is believing without evidence. That's never a virtue.

If I lack confidence in something, I don't believe it anyway! How is that reasonable? What opportunities could I possibly miss out on because I don't believe things on faith (without evidence)

Yes it is. At least for some people, to get through life you need to answer certain questions and make some decisions based on no evidence. Gathering evidence is sometimes not worth the time and it is best to act on faith so that you can move on to other things.

37 minutes ago, The_Squid said:

Do I believe they exist? Yes. Human rights exist as a concept.

No. I don't think men were created at all.

That has nothing to do with faith.

Are human being born equal?

If a person decides that they are certain that the purpose of their life is to... (tell stories, advance humanity, enjoy the pleasures of life, help the less fortunate...etc). Is that not a type of faith?

38 minutes ago, The_Squid said:

Then you are using a completely different definition of faith. You also keep bouncing back and forth about what faith is.

I agree that faith is believing without evidence.

Edited December 9, 2016 by carepov

The_Squid · December 9, 2016

12 minutes ago, carepov said:

Yes it is. At least for some people, to get through life you need to answer certain questions and make some decisions based on no evidence. Gathering evidence is sometimes not worth the time and it is best to act on faith so that you can move on to other things.

I don't deny some (many?) people make decisions without evidence. I don't do this. And I don't believe it's a virtue.

13 minutes ago, carepov said:

Are human being born equal?

I believe all people should be treated as equal. How is that faith?

Quote

If a person decides that they are certain that the purpose of their life is to... (tell stories, advance humanity, enjoy the pleasures of life, help the less fortunate...etc). Is that not a type of faith?

No. Deciding what to do with your life isn't faith. You seem to be confusing beliefs with deciding what direction one's life should go in. I can decide to give to charity with no faith. I really don't understand why you're equating belief with this.

carepov · December 10, 2016

3 hours ago, The_Squid said:

Faith is believing without evidence. That's never a virtue.

2 hours ago, The_Squid said:

I don't deny some (many?) people make decisions without evidence. I don't do this. And I don't believe it's a virtue.

There is plenty of evidence to show that in some people faith is a virtue. Some very intelligent and successful people say that their faith is one of their strongest virtues. Who are we to judge otherwise.

If faith were not a virtue then why would all successful societies develop systems of faith?

What you seem to be doing is assuming that everyone is or should be like you. Faith is a virtue for some people (and I agree a vice for some).

2 hours ago, The_Squid said:

No. Deciding what to do with your life isn't faith. You seem to be confusing beliefs with deciding what direction one's life should go in. I can decide to give to charity with no faith. I really don't understand why you're equating belief with this.

I believe that I was born to teach, to help others to...

kimmy · December 10, 2016

4 hours ago, carepov said:

In the west religious faith is declining but it is not clear to me that reason is increasing.

That's a good point.

4 hours ago, carepov said:

IMO, faith got crowded out by shopping and football. People no longer join religious groups because:
1. Individuals are way better off now and better able to comfortably survive without relying on community support
2. There are so many more options of things to do during leisure time (shopping and football)
3. The snowball effect of the above two reasons: working hours are 24/7 and there is less peer pressure to attend religious services

These are interesting comments.

Regarding football: I've written here before about my theory that allegiance to sports teams fills more or less the same psychological spot in our heads as allegiance to a religion. I suspect that it's actually all just about tribalism. I think that we're biologically predisposed to tribalism-- to form alliances around common identities, even if they be superficial ones. Whether it be a religious organization or a political organization, or whether it be a shared enthusiasm for a sports team or a musical performer or a fashion trend or a movie franchise, most people crave to belong to something.

Regarding shopping: I recently saw a headline about neurological research suggesting that brand iconography in brand enthusiasts inspired similar neurological responses to what religious iconography inspires in religious believers. I didn't read the article, but I will see if I can dredge it up. I do think that buying things scratches a psychological itch that is deeper than we realize.

Regarding points 1, 2, and 3: I think these make sense. I think peer pressure is noteworthy. If you live in a city, people are likely to be doing their own thing... I don't know where any of the people in my building spend their Sunday mornings. On the other hand if you live in a small town, you might stick out like a sore thumb if you're not in church. I think it's also a result of our increased mobility. Once upon a time many people were born, lived their whole lives, and died, within a radius of about 20 miles. Now it's common for people to move all over the country for work or school or whatever reason strikes their fancy.

All that said, however, I think that scientific discovery has struck a major blow to religion. You can find examples right here on this forum who cling to "science can't explain this, therefore God" as their justification for religious belief. Science and religion can coexist, but if your religious faith is based on the fact that science doesn't have all the answers yet, then your God gets a little bit smaller every day.

-k

carepov · December 10, 2016

6 hours ago, kimmy said:

That's a good point.

These are interesting comments.

Regarding football: I've written here before about my theory that allegiance to sports teams fills more or less the same psychological spot in our heads as allegiance to a religion. I suspect that it's actually all just about tribalism. I think that we're biologically predisposed to tribalism-- to form alliances around common identities, even if they be superficial ones. Whether it be a religious organization or a political organization, or whether it be a shared enthusiasm for a sports team or a musical performer or a fashion trend or a movie franchise, most people crave to belong to something.

Regarding shopping: I recently saw a headline about neurological research suggesting that brand iconography in brand enthusiasts inspired similar neurological responses to what religious iconography inspires in religious believers. I didn't read the article, but I will see if I can dredge it up. I do think that buying things scratches a psychological itch that is deeper than we realize.

Regarding points 1, 2, and 3: I think these make sense. I think peer pressure is noteworthy. If you live in a city, people are likely to be doing their own thing... I don't know where any of the people in my building spend their Sunday mornings. On the other hand if you live in a small town, you might stick out like a sore thumb if you're not in church. I think it's also a result of our increased mobility. Once upon a time many people were born, lived their whole lives, and died, within a radius of about 20 miles. Now it's common for people to move all over the country for work or school or whatever reason strikes their fancy.

I agree, we are social beings.

I think that saying that the religion declined due to an increase in education/reason is like saying the popularity of boxing declined because we are a less violent society.

There are certainly other major reasons for the decline of religion, some may be more local:
-overall decline in the respect for authority
-uncovering corruption and horrific crimes by religious leaders

6 hours ago, kimmy said:

All that said, however, I think that scientific discovery has struck a major blow to religion. You can find examples right here on this forum who cling to "science can't explain this, therefore God" as their justification for religious belief. Science and religion can coexist, but if your religious faith is based on the fact that science doesn't have all the answers yet, then your God gets a little bit smaller every day.

-k

Maybe, but I am skeptical and very hesitant to call it a major blow. The timing doesn't make sense. I see the most significant decline of religion as quite recent, maybe since the 60's. 100 years after Darwin. The Quiet Revolution in Quebec is an interesting case.

Like we disused above, most religious faith is not based on understanding science/nature and besides, we will never have all the answers, the more answers we have the more questions we have too.

betsy · December 10, 2016

14 hours ago, kimmy said:

All that said, however, I think that scientific discovery has struck a major blow to religion. You can find examples right here on this forum who cling to "science can't explain this, therefore God" as their justification for religious belief. Science and religion can coexist, but if your religious faith is based on the fact that science doesn't have all the answers yet, then your God gets a little bit smaller every day.

-k

It depends from what angle you're looking. To some who worship the Judeo-Christian God, science is seen as confirming the Judeo-Christian God.

I believe that science is created for a purpose, and I think its main role is to reveal to us the glory of God, as God would want us to know, and when.

Edited December 10, 2016 by betsy

dre · December 12, 2016

On 12/10/2016 at 9:33 AM, betsy said:

It depends from what angle you're looking. To some who worship the Judeo-Christian God, science is seen as confirming the Judeo-Christian God.

I believe that science is created for a purpose, and I think its main role is to reveal to us the glory of God, as God would want us to know, and when.

Its really more that you are searching for a position to retreat to. It must be odd to have an indoctrinated mind in a mostly evidence based world, and that's why religion collapses once people get educated. You are actually a perfect illustration for why religion is getting paved over by thought based on science. I mean... read your posts. The only way for religion to remain relevant in the long term is if it has a profoundly positive social impact. I am never going to believe any of your silly dogma, but I WOULD support you if I thought that was smart for me to do. Focus on that.

?Impact · December 12, 2016

On 12/8/2016 at 8:33 PM, betsy said:

Nowhere in the Bible says the earth is at the center of the universe.

True, because the Bible does not consider the universe as we understand it today. There are however many passages in the Bible that imply that man, made in the image of God, is the centre of all created.

Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. - Joshua 10:12-13

Now clearly there are many laws of physics being broken here, but allowing that an all powerful God will do that anyway, we are still left with the issue that the day has absolutely nothing to do with the Sun standing still. The rotation of Earth is what affects the day, not the location of the Sun in the "heavens". Only in an Earth centred "universe" would the above passage make any sense.

betsy · December 13, 2016

2 hours ago, ?Impact said:

True, because the Bible does not consider the universe as we understand it today. There are however many passages in the Bible that imply that man, made in the image of God, is the centre of all created.

Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. - Joshua 10:12-13

Now clearly there are many laws of physics being broken here, but allowing that an all powerful God will do that anyway, we are still left with the issue that the day has absolutely nothing to do with the Sun standing still. The rotation of Earth is what affects the day, not the location of the Sun in the "heavens". Only in an Earth centred "universe" would the above passage make any sense.

Joshua 10

¹²On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
    and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”
¹³So the sun stood still,
    and the moon stopped,
    till the nation avenged itself on^[b] its enemies,

as it is written in the Book of Jashar.

The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. ¹⁴There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!

Does God follows the laws of physics?

Based on the Biblical narrative, it was a miracle.

Quote

Joshua described the miracle just as we might describe it, from an earth-bound perspective. From the perspective of someone standing on the earth, it does appear that the sun moves. We ourselves commonly speak of “sunrise” and “sunset”; it is the way we express ourselves.

There are extra-biblical references to this event, as well, from traditions in all parts of the world. Legends of a long day are found in Egypt, Greece, and other ancient lands. And among the American Indians, South Sea islanders, and others in the Western Hemisphere are legends of a long night—which would indeed make sense, seeing how these peoples lived in the opposite hemisphere.

https://www.gotquestions.org/sun-stood-still.html

I have to admit that I never thought of Joshua's long day. Thanks to you, it piqued my interest and thus had come upon this long article. Both below are from the same source.

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One of Totten’s sources is a report by the Greek historian Herodotus who wrote that when he visited Egypt, the priests there showed him an ancient manuscript which told the story of a day which lasted about twice as long as a nor mal day. Now the Egyptians had water clocks at that time so that they could accurately measure the duration of the day, not being dependent on the motion of the sun, moon, and stars, as would other peoples around the world. Totten’s second account is from the Chinese which we shall present later.

For comparison with the Egyptian account, and complementing it, there is a West African story of a long night.²⁶ In that account, the night lasted way too long because the owl over slept and did not awaken the sun.

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The Chinese Account of Joshua’s Long Day

In the Chinese history²⁷ it is reported, that in the time of their seventh emperor,

Yao, the sun did not set for ten days, and that men were afraid the world would be burnt, and there were great fires at that time; and though the time of the sun’s standing still were enlarged beyond the bounds of truth, yet it seems to refer to this fact, and was manifestly about the same time; for this miracle was wrought in the year of the world 2554, which fell in the 75^th, or, as some say, the 67^th year of that emperor’s reign, who reigned 90 years.²⁸

Now the year of the world 2554 is identical to Bouw’s independently derived biblical chronology for the date of Joshua’s long day.²⁹ Incidentally, note that a 90-year reign (not Yao’s age) is thoroughly consistent with the 110 to 120 year ages achieved by Moses, Aaron, and Joshua who would have been contemporaries of Yao. The length of time mentioned by the Chinese, ten days, may be too long simply because the Chinese did not have clocks which ran independently of the sun’s motion so that the estimate would be purely subjective.

http://www.geocentricity.com/astronomy_of_bible/jld/index.html

Farther reading of the article will show of Joshua's long days/nights in North America, central America etc..,

It also includes Joshua's Long day and the Computers!

Edited December 13, 2016 by betsy

Canadianjim · December 18, 2016

With evidence there is no need for faith.

Canadianjim · December 18, 2016

On 2016-12-09 at 1:55 PM, The_Squid said:

Faith is believing without evidence. That's never a virtue.

If I lack confidence in something, I don't believe it anyway! How is that reasonable? What opportunities could I possibly miss out on because I don't believe things on faith (without evidence)

Do I believe they exist? Yes. Human rights exist as a concept.

No. I don't think men were created at all.

That has nothing to do with faith.

Then you are using a completely different definition of faith. You also keep bouncing back and forth about what faith is.

They are questions of origin and purpose which may include a thousand Gods. Or not.

betsy · December 18, 2016

15 hours ago, Canadianjim said:

With evidence there is no need for faith.

Not necessarily.

Jesus performed miracles for a reason: to show He's who He claimed to be. He was giving evidence.

Furthermore, when it comes to Christianity - evidence is very much part of it. The Bible is filled with miracles and Godly intervention. That's why we're given critical thinking, to be able to discern. Why did God describe His creation intimately? And modern science is confirming some of the Biblical descriptions of creation....

Christianity is not based on blind faith.

Edited December 18, 2016 by betsy

Canadianjim · December 18, 2016

15 minutes ago, betsy said:

Not necessarily.

Jesus performed miracles for a reason: to show He's who He claimed to be. He was giving evidence.

Furthermore, when it comes to Christianity - evidence is very much part of it. The Bible is filled with miracles and Godly intervention. That's why we're given critical thinking, to be able to discern. Why did God describe His creation intimately? And modern science is confirming some of the Biblical descriptions of creation....

Christianity is not based on blind faith.

What miracles. Show me one? Prove it to me.

Genesis 1":16 proves your bible is a myth

God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Canadianjim

betsy · December 18, 2016

Just now, Canadianjim said:

What miracles. Show me one? Prove it to me.

Review some of the topics I created on this thread.

Edited December 18, 2016 by betsy

Canadianjim · December 18, 2016

2 minutes ago, betsy said:

Review some of the topics I created on this thread.

Genesis 1:16 Proves your bible is a myth

God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.

betsy · December 19, 2016

22 hours ago, Canadianjim said:

Genesis 1:16 Proves your bible is a myth

God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.

EH? Are you sure you're referring to the Bible? Let's make sure......quote Genesis 1:16!

And, explain exactly how that proves the Bible is a myth.

Edited December 19, 2016 by betsy

Canadianjim · December 19, 2016

6 minutes ago, betsy said:

EH? Are you sure you're referring to the Bible? Let's make sure......quote Genesis 1:16!

And, explain exactly how that proves the Bible is a myth.

What are the 2 great lights?

betsy · December 19, 2016

33 minutes ago, Canadianjim said:

What are the 2 great lights?

Never mind asking me questions. Explain why you say that verse proves the Bible as a myth!

You made a claim citing that verse - explain it!

Edited December 19, 2016 by betsy

Canadianjim · December 19, 2016

1 minute ago, betsy said:

Never mind asking me questions. Explain why you say that verse proves the Bible as a myth!

You made a claim citing that verse - explain it!

The moon is not a light. There is no 2 great lights. The God you claim exists would know that. He would also know that just because a primitive society didn't know that , certainly an educated people would read the bible and know that was simply not true. You want to believe a primitive goat herder society fine , I respect your right to do that. But don't tell me you have any proof.

By the way i can give you hundreds of further examples where the bible is easily proven to not be factual at all.

betsy · December 19, 2016

11 minutes ago, Canadianjim said:

The moon is not a light. There is no 2 great lights. The God you claim exists would know that. He would also know that just because a primitive society didn't know that , certainly an educated people would read the bible and know that was simply not true. You want to believe a primitive goat herder society fine , I respect your right to do that. But don't tell me you have any proof.

By the way i can give you hundreds of further examples where the bible is easily proven to not be factual at all.

Is it dark or light during the day? Yes or no.

Did it ever occur to you that the Bible is not meant to be a scientific Book?

HOWEVER.......

......even though the Bible was given not as a scientific Book.......

.............modern science has been confirming some of the statements written in the Bible!

How many times have I stated that in forums?

Know the difference before you guys start spouting off about the Bible! The arguments being given against the Bible are so pathetic!

Edited December 19, 2016 by betsy

Canadianjim · December 19, 2016

On 2016-12-09 at 2:49 PM, The_Squid said:

I don't deny some (many?) people make decisions without evidence. I don't do this. And I don't believe it's a virtue.

I believe all people should be treated as equal. How is that faith?

No. Deciding what to do with your life isn't faith. You seem to be confusing beliefs with deciding what direction one's life should go in. I can decide to give to charity with no faith. I really don't understand why you're equating belief with this.

Faith is the belief in something without evidence,. What you have described is a good person. Nothing to do with the definition of faith.

Dictionary Faith

complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

"this restores one's faith in politicians"

synonyms:trust, belief, confidence, conviction; More

2.

strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Canadianjim · December 19, 2016

8 minutes ago, betsy said:

Is it dark or light during the day? Yes or no.

Did it ever occur to you that the Bible is not meant to be a scientific Book?

HOWEVER.......

......even though the Bible was given not as a scientific Book.......modern science has been confirming some of the statements written in the Bible!

Know the difference before you guys start spouting off about the Bible!

Name the 2 great lights the bible refers to. Reflection is not a light. If God intend to name reflection as a light ..then Many bodies reflect light. In fact the EARTH REFLECTS FAR MORE LIGHT THAN THE MOON DOES. Now either you can prove your case by naming the 2 great lights or you can make excuses.

betsy · December 19, 2016

16 minutes ago, Canadianjim said:

Name the 2 great lights the bible refers to. Reflection is not a light. If God intend to name reflection as a light ..then Many bodies reflect light. In fact the EARTH REFLECTS FAR MORE LIGHT THAN THE MOON DOES. Now either you can prove your case by naming the 2 great lights or you can make excuses.

:lol:

How you'd show the Bible is a myth - I suppose you thought you'd had it all planned, eh? Ooops. There's a major snag. I didn't follow the script you'd written down. I explained why!

But what the heck - you'd still use and keep going on about it anyway. :lol:

Hahahahaha. Sorry, but I can't help it.........I'm still laughing!

Edited December 19, 2016 by betsy

Canadianjim · December 19, 2016

16 minutes ago, betsy said:

How you'd show the Bible is a myth - I suppose you thought you'd had it all planned, eh? Ooops. There's a major snag. I didn't follow the script you'd written down. I explained why!

But what the heck - you'd still use and keep going on about it anyway.

Hahahahaha. Sorry, but I can't help it.........I'm still laughing!

How did i show the bible is a myth? Easy because it said 2 great lights when we know that's false. That's why you can only try to make excuses why the bible is wrong. Instead of facing the fact that it is incorrect. That is extremist thinking. Now you know why the world has to tolerate religious extremism. Deny facts right in front of their faces. Like you. Hint... There are not 2 great lights. The bible is wrong.