Native Ceremony takes place at a public school

[BC_chick]

7 minutes ago, msj said:

The letter does not tell them when the religious ceremony is, or rather, was, going to take place. 

The parents had an unreasonable amount of time to decide, gather more information, and respond. 

The children were left with uninformed parents (due to time constraints imposed by the school) to then decide for themselves to participate in the ceremony, or not, while under duress (to make the decision as authority figures pressed them on to participate). 

This is clearly a case coercion and is deserving of a reprimand.  

I did state where it takes place, paragraph four.  

I agree that two days notice isn't ideal, but bear in mind that it's the beginning of the school year and given the amount of detail about what would take place and where to call/email, the parents share a great deal of the burden in not inquiring if they were uncomfortable with the ceremony.

No coercion.  Read the letter and call for more info if you don't like it.  Keep your kid at home that day if it bothers you that much, it's not very difficult.

 

Edited November 17, 2016 by BC_chick

[msj]

2 minutes ago, cybercoma said:

This entire situation still just sounds like people whining about kids learning about indigenous people. I've yet to see anyone articulate what harm could come of this. I do see the harm in the school indoctrinating kids with a particular religion, but that is quite obviously not the case here. 

The harm is that it opens the door to any and all religious practices to be forced upon children. 

As I have already stated, baptism is the better analogy here since it too is a cleansing ritual. 

One can easily learn about such rituals without ever having to participate in it.  

[BC_chick]

6 minutes ago, cybercoma said:

This entire situation still just sounds like people whining about kids learning about indigenous people. I've yet to see anyone articulate what harm could come of this. I do see the harm in the school indoctrinating kids with a particular religion, but that is quite obviously not the case here. 

Bravo, my sentiments exactly.  

[drummindiver]

22 minutes ago, BC_chick said:

Thanks, msj, I found the letter.  

Utter nonsense as I thought.  It's clear as day what is going to take place and anyone with questions about the event is free to call or email the school to find out more information.  

Deplorable.  Nobody to blame but themselves.

 

No consent letter required. Mandatory what your cHildreth will do.

Deploreable

[BC_chick]

6 minutes ago, msj said:

Nope, reference is made to spirits and we're not talking vodka. 

My atheist parent having me circumcised as a baby is "cultural."   Inspired by the stupidity of religion but still cultural. 

My mother feeling guilt when I tease her about my "mutilation" and "justifying" it by saying that I'm "cleaner" because of it [in an era of potable water and soap] is religious inspired indoctrinated justification.  

TMI, dude.

And no, circumcision is very much a religious ritual, even if your parents were atheists.

[?Impact]

2 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

You find a valenines card religious and Valentines, an event? K. Christmas trees,  Halloween, Valentines and I assume the menorah are already not allowed in public schools. I don't remember Thanksgiving parties, but they are clearly not religious anyways.

 

St. Valentine was a martyred Christian priest who was caught marrying couples. Far removed from the current day celebration, yes, but certainly based on religious roots.

Thanksgiving has at its roots, the German Erntedankfest which is clearly a Christian festival. Yes, like many North American traditions they have become secularized over the years but the roots are specifically religious. No different than this native ceremony. I didn't suggest there were Thanksgiving parties, but the event is often recognized in the schools; in Ontario for example it is part of the grade 3 social studies curriculum.

I haven't been in BC in a few years, and don't remember visiting any public schools (only UVic) while there so I don't know about Christmas trees, menorahs, and Halloween costumes, but they are certainly still part of many schools in Ontario & Quebec still today. When I went to school in the dark ages it was almost exclusively Christian content, and when my children attended in the 90's and early 00's there was more inclusive of cultural practices of other religions as well.

 

[drummindiver]

42 minutes ago, cybercoma said:

That's not what it says.

It  is, as has been pointed out.

btw,  this happened not just once,  but twice.

 

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/canada/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/b-c-mother-asks-court-to-keep-aboriginal-cleansing-ceremony-out-of-public-schools

[drummindiver]

25 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

 

St. Valentine was a martyred Christian priest who was caught marrying couples. Far removed from the current day celebration, yes, but certainly based on religious roots.

Thanksgiving has at its roots, the German Erntedankfest which is clearly a Christian festival. Yes, like many North American traditions they have become secularized over the years but the roots are specifically religious. No different than this native ceremony. I didn't suggest there were Thanksgiving parties, but the event is often recognized in the schools; in Ontario for example it is part of the grade 3 social studies curriculum.

I haven't been in BC in a few years, and don't remember visiting any public schools (only UVic) while there so I don't know about Christmas trees, menorahs, and Halloween costumes, but they are certainly still part of many schools in Ontario & Quebec still today. When I went to school in the dark ages it was almost exclusively Christian content, and when my children attended in the 90's and early 00's there was more inclusive of cultural practices of other religions as well.

 

I'm not arguing whether their beliefs and rituals should be taught. Of course they should. But leave the ceremony to the appropriate house of worship.

[-1=e^ipi]

58 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

So you agree, no Christmas trees, no menorahs, no St. Valentines day cards, no Halloween costumes, no Thanksgiving, etc. These all have some religious origin, yet they seem to squeak by ok. 

Good. Teach kids to code instead. Better use of time.

[?Impact]

2 minutes ago, -1=e^ipi said:

Good. Teach kids to code instead. Better use of time.

Coding? Who needs that nonsense, let's get back to the three Я's. 

4 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

I'm not arguing whether their beliefs and rituals should be taught. Of course they should. But leave the ceremony to the appropriate house of worship.

As above, what should be taught in public schools? Is all culture out? No mention of the NHL either, because that is culture. It would be interesting to record a day at school (work as well), and then see where time was actually spent.  Let the efficiency experts in. Time to catch up to China, although we can eliminate both their as well as our political indoctrination from the classroom.

[msj]

Again: one can learn about cultures and religion without participating in the rituals.  

Hell, I have a Book of Catechism sitting on my bookshelf which clearly outlines all types of crazy Catholic practices that even my small accountant mind can understand without having had observed them nor participated in them. 

 

[?Impact]

6 minutes ago, msj said:

Again: one can learn about cultures and religion without participating in the rituals.  

What does participating mean? Observing is not necessarily participating. You learn more from observing something live than you do from a documentary on television than you do from a lecture then you do from reading a book - in general. They are all just means of communicating. You could even go to a place of worship only to observe, being there does not necessarily make you a [full] participant.

When I go to a concert, am I participating? Attending a concert is certainly more memorable than listening to a song on the radio, but that does not make me a member of the band.

[msj]

Participation means taking part in the ceremony: the kids having their faces smudged as the burning sage washes over them to "cleanse" them and remove the "bad energy" etc etc... 

Just like if an Evangelical Christian brought in a big tub of holy water and started dunking the kids to "cleanse" them of their "sins." 

I wouldn't want my kid dunked in dirty, bacteria infested, "holy" water.  

Also wouldn't want my kid coming home smelling like sage. Marijuana, sure, fine, but not sage.

[Please note I don't have kids]  

 

Edited November 17, 2016 by msj

[msj]

Oh, and once again, folks: read the f&cking OP and the linky links contained within so we can have an informed discussion.  This is getting tiresome. 

[msj]

1 hour ago, BC_chick said:

I did state where it takes place, paragraph four.  

I agree that two days notice isn't ideal, but bear in mind that it's the beginning of the school year and given the amount of detail about what would take place and where to call/email, the parents share a great deal of the burden in not inquiring if they were uncomfortable with the ceremony.

No coercion.  Read the letter and call for more info if you don't like it.  Keep your kid at home that day if it bothers you that much, it's not very difficult.

 

1) We are not talking about where it takes place.  We are talking about when.  

As in you do not send out a letter two days (really more like a day and a half, at best) before an event as the parent needs time to receive the letter, think about it, and instruct the child and/or communicate with the school about any actions that should be requested/taken etc.... 

2) The date of the event was not present in the letter. That is pure incompetence. 

3) In the story in the original link in the OP there is a quote where the school is admitting the letter is unclear and confusing so even they agree with me about how poorly this part was handled. 

4) The participation in the religious ceremony was (or should be determined in court) to be against section 76 of the School Act and may even go further and prove to be unconstitutional.  So the school is wrong for even holding the event in the way that they had the children participate in it rather than observe it. 

[BC_chick]

24 minutes ago, msj said:

Participation means taking part in the ceremony: the kids having their faces smudged as the burning sage washes over them to "cleanse" them and remove the "bad energy" etc etc... 

Just like if an Evangelical Christian brought in a big tub of holy water and started dunking the kids to "cleanse" them of their "sins." 

I wouldn't want my kid dunked in dirty, bacteria infested, "holy" water.  

Also wouldn't want my kid coming home smelling like sage. Marijuana, sure, fine, but not sage.

[Please note I don't have kids]  

 

This is surprising coming from someone so well-traveled as you.  You seem like the last person who'd want to prevent your (imaginary) kids from learning about other cultures.

As cybercoma said, this isn't exactly indoctrination.

Edited November 18, 2016 by BC_chick

[BC_chick]

3 minutes ago, msj said:

1) We are not talking about where it takes place.  We are talking about when.  

As in you do not send out a letter two days (really more like a day and a half, at best) before an event as the parent needs time to receive the letter, think about it, and instruct the child and/or communicate with the school about any actions that should be requested/taken etc.... 

2) The date of the event was not present in the letter. That is pure incompetence. 

3) In the story in the original link in the OP there is a quote where the school is admitting the letter is unclear and confusing so even they agree with me about how poorly this part was handled. 

4) The participation in the religious ceremony was (or should be determined in court) to be against section 76 of the School Act and may even go further and prove to be unconstitutional.  So the school is wrong for even holding the event in the way that they had the children participate in it rather than observe it. 

1) If you found the details on the ceremony offensive, call the number or email for more info.

2) If you found the details on the ceremony offensive, call the number or email for more info.

3) That's very nice of them.

4) That's debatable.  I think it was cultural. 

 

[msj]

On 11/16/2016 at 0:46 PM, cybercoma said:

And there's a place to talk about Trump in schools. Unless you're suggesting that should be banned too.

Why?  Should grade 3 kids be talking about Trump? 

Or, rather, should their teachers be talking about Trump during math, reading, whatever? 

[msj]

Just now, BC_chick said:

1) If you found the details on the ceremony offensive, call the number or email for more info.

2) If you found the details on the ceremony offensive, call the number or email for more info.

3) That's very nice of them.

4) That's debatable.  I think it was cultural. 

 

Again, when the parents get the letter one day (if you believe the mother who claims her son got it to her on the 15th and her grade 5 daughter not at  all) before the event there is a question of reasonable time. That is unreasonable for a person to get further information. 

It is not cultural since it deals with spirits and cleansing and sounds not that much different from the "cultural" (but really religious) practice of baptism. 

And, again, the ceremony is only "offensive" insofar that it bring religion into a secular setting where the kids and parents should have the right to allow for a proper amount of time to know what the event is about, when it is being scheduled, and what role the kid is playing in it. If the kid is observing then fine, if the kid is participating in it then wrong on secular grounds. 

 

[eyeball]

I can't believe I read this stupid thread...

[msj]

10 minutes ago, BC_chick said:

This is surprising coming from someone so well-traveled as you.  You seem like the last person who'd want to prevent your (imaginary) kids from learning about other cultures.

As cybercoma said, this isn't exactly indoctrination.

As I stated earlier in this thread: when in Thailand I was the only one in my tour group who did not partake in a Buddhist ceremony. 

I did so because although I do practice and share some Buddhist beliefs (although more Tao te Ching type stuff) I do not fall for the ceremony crap. 

I also thought it important to stand up to the peer pressure of participation. Yes, you do stand out, even as an adult, for not doing what the herd is doing. 

Watching the event was not all that inspiring as it was just the usual religious crap - they are all more same, same, but slightly different. 

Of course, one can learn about things in many different ways. 

When one is a child and the event is religious I do not think a child, in a secular school setting, should feel compelled in any way to participate in any religious ritual. 

Then can learn about it in other ways including observation (whether in person or by watching a video) and reading about it.  

[msj]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I can't believe I read this stupid thread...

And commented no less. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I can't believe I read this stupid thread...

All of it?  Retired?

[eyeball]

No recovering from painting ceilings.  It hurts to even move the mouse.

[Guest]

Ah, that's why you're so crabby...