President Camacho vs President Trump, who will preform better?

[segnosaur]

12 hours ago, xul said:

...he will waste most his time on arguing with his cabinet,  

Well, there are 2 problems here:

1) Trump himself decides on his cabinet, so that there's a good chance that he will appoint a bunch of incompetents and/or yes men who will echo whatever empty-headed idea he gets

2) Trump is prone to manipulation, which means that the U.S. may end up getting "ruled" by shadowy people that they didn't actually vote for.

with Republicans

Problems:

1) Trump and the Republicans agree on many issues (e.g. restricting abortion, ending Obamacare, eliminating banking restrictions, cut taxes to the rich)

2) On many of the things they don't agree on, its possible that neither side feels strongly enough to actually do anything to stop the other. Trump may not go out on a limb if Congress tries to restrict gay rights, congress may not stand up to Trump if he tries to end NAFTA. Both Trump and the Republicans in the house are in the same boat... built their reputation largely on Obama and Hillary hate rather than facts and policies.

with Democrats

Democrats don't have a majority in either house. Furthermore, between gerrymandering, and the fact that more Democratic seats are at risk at the next mid-term elections, its unlikely that they'll have much more power to oppose trump before the end of his term

with CEOs, bankers

Well, considering the number of former Goldman Sachs executives he has working as advisors, I doubt he'll get into much of an argument with the bankers. I'm sure they're all looking forward to the next repeat of the 2008 meltdown, and Trump seems to be quite eager to help them along.

...lawyers, Pentagon generals..

Problem is, the military is supposed to be non-political. I'm sure Trump will try to do things which are illegal (which will be opposed), but its not like the generals can do that much arguing, and what they do will probably have to be behind closed doors.

...and American allies.

Why would Trump care what "American Allies" actually think? (He should.. he just probably isn't smart enough to.) Instead, he'll point to his bromance with Putin as an example of how great he is at foreign relations, ignoring the fact that he's pissed off his NATO and NAFTA partners.

 

[bush_cheney2004]

51 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

...Why would Trump care what "American Allies" actually think?

 

Trump already knows what "American Allies" think...they think the United States should pick up the check (cheque).

Edited November 16, 2016 by bush_cheney2004

[xul]

On 15/11/2016 at 10:54 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

This is exactly what should be expected.   This was just another U.S. election.  I don't know why it is being blown out of proportion compared to previous elections.

This wasn't just another U.S. election....

 

The Hunger Games version of explanation: 

 

1.Trump's grassroots voters hail to trump(the symbol of anti-political correctness) : This is the revolution, and you are the mockingjay.  

 

2. Trump's grassroots voters protest Clinton (The symbol of greedy elite class): If we burn, you burn with us.  

 

3. Clinton, Bush, CEOs of multinational corporations, and media tycoons were watching Trump cheered by his voters on TV and discussing how to stop Trump:

Clintons: He is not who they think he is. He is not their leader.

Bushes: I think that's true.

CEOs: But he has become a beacon of hope for the grassroots rebellion, and he has to be eliminated.

Media Tycoons: We agree he should die, but in the right way, at right time...

 

4. After the election, Bush and Trump re-watch trump addressing his grassroots voters on TV while discuss his strategy: 

Bush: You dropped your cards. Why didn't you just stick to the card? You might scare these voters.

Trump: Hope, is the only thing stronger than fear. I was giving people hope. Fear me they might, but you see, they still voted for me for hope.

Bush: A little hope is effective. A lot of hope is dangerous. A spark is fine, as long as it is contained.

Trump: So...what should I do as President Trump?

Bush: So, CONTAIN it...!

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2016 by xul

[betsy]

18 hours ago, segnosaur said:

No I don't. In fact that was the point I was making.... that the wall would be mostly ineffective in doing anything to stop illegal immigration, especially when compared to the costs.

Not really sure what your point is here. I've been claiming the wall will be pretty much ineffective. Now it seems you're agreeing with me. So why are you suggesting its still a good thing?

 

No we don't agree because I'm not saying it will be ineffective.   I'm saying it's not going to stop illegal immigration!  Big difference.

 

The wall or the fence, will greatly reduce illegal immigration.  It's a whole lot better than having no barrier at all!  Think of a dike.  (and I don't mean lesbian).

Edited November 17, 2016 by betsy

[segnosaur]

4 hours ago, betsy said:

The wall or the fence, will greatly reduce illegal immigration.

You keep saying that, but you are making a statement with absolutely no evidence at all.

Once again: As I have already given evidence for: most illegal immigrants did not enter the U.S. across the U.S./Mexico border. Hard to "greatly reduce" illegal immigration rates if its not even addressing the main way they are getting into the country

Is there something about that that seems too complex for you?

It's a whole lot better than having no barrier at all!

Again, another baseless assertion. I have already given multiple ways that a wall or fence have negative impacts: seizing people's land, subdividing U.S. territory, harming wildlife. I've also given references to show this has actually happened. Never mind the cost of the wall (which various estimates put up as high as $25 billion, which works out to over $200 for every man, woman and child in the United States.)

All to stop a group of people who are causing less violent crime in the United States than native born Americans.

Are you ever going to address those issues? The people who have seen their land seized to build the existing fences? The horrible effect on the local wildlfe? You've totally ignored those points. All you have done is stuck your fingers in your ears and shouted "La la la I can't hear you!". Its sad. And pathetic. Is pathetisad a word?

Its amazing how idiotic Trump supporters can be... they are worried about Hillary "taking their freedoms", yet they will vote for a man who wants to take hundreds of dollars of their tax money (per person) to build a wall that will require the government to steal thousands of acres of land from hard-working Americans. And we're supposed to believe Trump is in it for the "little guy".

 

[bush_cheney2004]

3 hours ago, segnosaur said:

....Its amazing how idiotic Trump supporters can be... they are worried about Hillary "taking their freedoms", yet they will vote for a man who wants to take hundreds of dollars of their tax money (per person) to build a wall that will require the government to steal thousands of acres of land from hard-working Americans. And we're supposed to believe Trump is in it for the "little guy".

 

 

It is also amazing that Trump haters ignore the fact that President Obama has deported millions of illegals...more than all of 20th century presidents combined.   This means spending tax dollars.  Many "hard working Americans" volunteer their time (and land) to patrol the U.S. border.  

There is no "we" in this case for other nationals or illegals.

 

[betsy]

18 hours ago, segnosaur said:

You keep saying that, but you are making a statement with absolutely no evidence at all.

Once again: As I have already given evidence for: most illegal immigrants did not enter the U.S. across the U.S./Mexico border. Hard to "greatly reduce" illegal immigration rates if its not even addressing the main way they are getting into the country

Is there something about that that seems too complex for you?

 

 

Again, another baseless assertion. I have already given multiple ways that a wall or fence have negative impacts: seizing people's land, subdividing U.S. territory, harming wildlife. I've also given references to show this has actually happened. Never mind the cost of the wall (which various estimates put up as high as $25 billion, which works out to over $200 for every man, woman and child in the United States.)

All to stop a group of people who are causing less violent crime in the United States than native born Americans.

Are you ever going to address those issues? The people who have seen their land seized to build the existing fences? The horrible effect on the local wildlfe? You've totally ignored those points. All you have done is stuck your fingers in your ears and shouted "La la la I can't hear you!". Its sad. And pathetic. Is pathetisad a word?

Its amazing how idiotic Trump supporters can be... they are worried about Hillary "taking their freedoms", yet they will vote for a man who wants to take hundreds of dollars of their tax money (per person) to build a wall that will require the government to steal thousands of acres of land from hard-working Americans. And we're supposed to believe Trump is in it for the "little guy".

 

 

You're rambling.  We're not talking about native-born Americans.  We're talking about ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS!

 

Of course it will reduce illegal immigrants coming in through Mexico!  They're not all from Mexico, either.   DOH.

  Read the article I posted!  Even without a wall, there were many illegals detained at the border - what more if there is the wall, or fence? 

 

Anyway....you're making senseless discussion so I'll be ignoring you until you've got something worthy of response.  Look up the meaning of idiotic.  Unbelievable. 

Edited November 18, 2016 by betsy

[xul]

29 minutes ago, betsy said:

Of course it will reduce illegal immigrants coming in through Mexico!   

 

Mexico Illegal Immigrants vs President Trump's Wall

[betsy]

5 minutes ago, xul said:

 

Mexico Illegal Immigrants vs President Trump's Wall

 

It will still reduce the illegal immigrants.  What about illegal afraid of heights?

Besides, you don't know what will go with the wall.  We're high-tech now, Xul.  Think "future."  There could be drones knocking down ladders.

A deterrent is better than none at all.

Edited November 18, 2016 by betsy

[xul]

18 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

It will still reduce the illegal immigrants.  What about illegal afraid of heights?

 

A deterrent is better than none at all.

Then they will dig a hole....

Days ago, when I was watching TV, a reporter interviewed an American rancher. He had already built a fence, and set up a camera. The fence was cut a hole so the illegal immigrants could go through, and the camera showed these guys didn't come to US alone. They matched like a safari, even set up a camp. Obviously there is a organization behind it.

A wall may be effective to a single handed illegal immigrant but not to this kind of immigrants smugglers.

Edited November 18, 2016 by xul

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, xul said:

Then they will dig a hole....

 

 

If they could dig a hole, they would already have jobs back home.

[betsy]

10 minutes ago, xul said:

Then they will dig a hole....

Days ago, when I was watching TV, a reporter interviewed an American rancher. He had already built a fence, and set up a camera. The fence was cut a hole so the illegal immigrants could go through, and the camera showed these guys didn't come to US alone. They matched like a safari, even set up a camp. Obviously there is a organization behind it.

A wall may be effective to a single handed illegal immigrant but not to this kind of immigrants smugglers.

 

For someone who's into a creative fictional OP - you suddenly lost steam.

 

You think you're the only one who thought of digging a hole?  They can do a lot of things to deter that too.

Maybe, there'll be a techno- monster that gobbles up every illegal that goes underground!

[segnosaur]

5 hours ago, xul said:

Then they will dig a hole....

Days ago, when I was watching TV, a reporter interviewed an American rancher. He had already built a fence, and set up a camera. The fence was cut a hole so the illegal immigrants could go through, and the camera showed these guys didn't come to US alone. They matched like a safari, even set up a camp. Obviously there is a organization behind it.

A wall may be effective to a single handed illegal immigrant but not to this kind of immigrants smugglers.

There is an episode of the series Pen & Teller: B.S. that dealt with illegal immigration.

They hired 3 illegal immigrants to build a replica segment of the wall/fence, to the same specification as parts of the wall currently along the border. At the end of the day, after the wall segment had been completed, they gave them one last task: Get through the wall. 2 went over, one went under. None of them took more than 5 minutes. None needed any special equipment

Yet this is the "barrier" that people like Betsy think are going to protect people from the "evil" mexicans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!_episodes#Season_5_.282007.29

(Not sure if that URL will be filtered out, because of a profanity in the name. If it is, my apologies.)

[DogOnPorch]

So the argument is: you can't stop the flow so let's just surrender sovereignty to Globalism.

Yeah...if you want to stop it...it WILL stop.

[segnosaur]

14 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

So the argument is: you can't stop the flow so let's just surrender sovereignty to Globalism.

Nope, not at all. But, what you have to do is look at things in a rational way.

First of all is that you have to consider costs, both in enforcing sovereignty (cost of building a wall/paying for law enforcement/lawyers/etc.), and in the economical side effects (e.g. removing all illegal immigrants might negatively impact certain business that rely on their cheap labor. Plus, from a government perspective, illegal immigrants often pay more into the government in various taxes than they get in services.)

Secondly, you have to consider the end goal. End crime? The hysterics put forward by Trump, and echoed by bestsy (OMG! Rapists! widespread kidnapping) are certainly not supported by evidence. Protect American jobs? Stop terrorism?

Then, you have to decide on a course of action, weighing the cost of each potential action against your stated goals.

Building a wall will have horrendous costs (both in costing the taxpayers billions, in the environmental impact, and in requiring the government to steal other people's land) but will do almost nothing to protect people, nor to stop immigrants from "stealing our jobs". But the fact that one possible solution is idiotic doesn't mean that other solutions aren't possible. For example, more money spent investigating crime in immigrant areas, which would actually target those who commit crime. Or investigating companies who hire illegal aliens.

 

 

[DogOnPorch]

Newsflash: there already is a physical wall along much of the border. Seems there was energy to build one in the past. Now it is breached and in disrepair.

Also: a wall can be more than brick and cement...or less. This isn't 1350...we're not applying to the King for a license to crenelate. Effective patrols + surveillance does much more than an unmanned wall.

[bush_cheney2004]

Building the wall could have a huge upside for Mexico:

Quote

If Trump builds his beloved wall, for instance, it will require around 7 million cubic meters of concrete and 2.4 million tons of cement, according to investing firm Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. And guess who produces just those materials, in the vicinity of the Rio Grande? “Most of the cement producers in North America are Mexican,” says Nariman Behravesh, chief economist at forecasting firm IHS. “As an infrastructure program, [the wall] could boost the Mexican economy. It could benefit Mexican companies.”

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/how-trumps-wall-would-create-jobs-in-mexico-190533192.html

 

Gosh, when did deportations and stopping the flow of more illegals get such a bad name. 

[segnosaur]

16 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Newsflash: there already is a physical wall along much of the border.

Yes there is. (In fact I think Obama and Hillary actually voted for it at one point.)

But the wall is expensive to build and maintain, harms wildlife, and is a hassle to many people who live on the border, who often have their lands seized or their property divided. Clinton was smart enough to see the mistake and not propose expanding on it. Trump and his supporters are not. They see the stupidity and want to double down, by making the same mistake only making it bigger, more expensive, more harmful to taxpayers, more harmful to wildlife.

Also: a wall can be more than brick and cement...or less. This isn't 1350...we're not applying to the King for a license to crenelate. Effective patrols + surveillance does much more than an unmanned wall.

Trumps actual quotation: I will build a great wall – and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me. At other points he gave more details about what he wants the wall to be like.

The point is, his statement was pretty clear that he was referring to an actual physical barrier, not some enhanced patrols or something similar. Now, if you think that his plan all along was to simply put more border security in place, then you have to admit his talk of a "wall" was a lie.

 

[DogOnPorch]

Yada Yada Yada...it's the 21st century. You can bet electronic surveillance will play a YUGE part of the plan to combat illegal immigration to the USA.

30 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Building the wall could have a huge upside for Mexico:

 

Gosh, when did deportations and stopping the flow of more illegals get such a bad name. 

La Raza? Seems the plan is to simply out-breed Americans.

[?Impact]

Can we build a wall to keep out the killer bees? 

[DogOnPorch]

Belushi and Crew...awesome. Let's MAGA. Member Styx?? Yeah...I member Styx.

[betsy]

On 11/18/2016 at 0:48 PM, segnosaur said:

There is an episode of the series Pen & Teller: B.S. that dealt with illegal immigration.

They hired 3 illegal immigrants to build a replica segment of the wall/fence, to the same specification as parts of the wall currently along the border. At the end of the day, after the wall segment had been completed, they gave them one last task: Get through the wall. 2 went over, one went under. None of them took more than 5 minutes. None needed any special equipment

Yet this is the "barrier" that people like Betsy think are going to protect people from the "evil" mexicans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!_episodes#Season_5_.282007.29

(Not sure if that URL will be filtered out, because of a profanity in the name. If it is, my apologies.)

 

That's indeed BS, man.  Why hire illegal immigrants to build the wall?  That's kinda like getting the fox to secure a chicken house from foxes.

Why not hire someone who's really into stopping illegal immigrants from crossing the border?

 

That show ended in 2010.

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Penn & Teller: Bullshit! is an American documentary television series that aired from 2003 to 2010

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!_episodes#Season_5_.282007.29

 

Your segment aired in 2007! 

That's almost 10 years ago! I never heard of that show, so I got this: the full episode.  The intro with the Statue of Liberty is funny.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJZDurJGUxU

 

 

 

 

I've heard Trump in his early rallies, musing about having motion detectors, electric wires,  and drones......and hiring more border patrols (which will also mean creating jobs).  Who knows......technology could come up with something we've never even heard about.  You think private techno companies wouldn't be eager to compete and get contracts with the administration?  Innovation and challenge will come to the fore!

 

I'm thinking.....you don't build the wall exactly on the border.  Pull it way back.  BUT, from the border to the wall, have some underground taser-kind of thingies - like mines (you don't know where they are) - you step on it, you get tasered! It's like a warning of what might be up ahead. 

Just putting warning signs about those underground tasers will already deter some, I bet.    AND that's just way before you even get near the wall!

 

Read and broaden your horizon.   FYI, it's not just Mexicans that come through the border, Segnosaur. 

 

And you're not getting the picture here.  I'm not saying it will stop illegal immigration completely.  But it's only logical to say that the wall with reduce it.  That's all they're realistically aiming for - to reduce the flow instead of having this tsunami!

 

Latinos voted for Trump!  And I've heard some cite the wall, as a plan that they agree with.   Legal immigrants with limited skills are losing out on jobs from the illegals!  A lot of immigrants who followed immigration protocol - and  whose got relatives waiting in line - are not happy with the current situation, especially Hillary's vision of granting amnesty to all illegals!  It doesn't take rocket science to understand why.

 

Edited November 20, 2016 by betsy

[xul]

I think all audiences were deeply impressed by the monstrous Costco retail shop in movie Idiocracy. But how and when was it built? This is the plot of the prequel:

CEO Trump: After I bought Costco Wholesale Corporation, using the money which The Trump Corporation earned from building the Great Wall of U.S of course,  the sales of our retail shops go down rapidly. Who can tell me why?

MBA BC2004: After 4 years you ruled America, debt goes up (for cover the cost of building the Great Wall of USA), and employment rate goes down (because the pure blood American can not compete with the illegal immigrants, who was supposed incapable getting a job in their home countries so they come to US to grab job from superiors), some US citizens like you become richer and richer so they don't need to buy from Costco, meanwhile others become poorer and poorer so they buy from Dollarama instead of Costco....

CEO Trump: So, what's your plan?

MBA betsy: According to my MBA textbook, the best way to prop sales is to build a larger flagship retail shop.

CEO Trump: Since our existing shops can not get enough shoppers, do you think we can get the money back from investing a new larger one?

MBA betsy: Though you need to invest billions, the sales will still go up millions $.

MBA DogOnPorch: Agree, let's do it. Having a plan is better than no plan 

That's when and why the monstrous retail shop was build and left rotting since then.

CEO Trump's Costco Flagship Retail Shop

Edited November 20, 2016 by xul

[betsy]

On 11/18/2016 at 3:39 PM, segnosaur said:

Trumps actual quotation: I will build a great wall – and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me. At other points he gave more details about what he wants the wall to be like.

The point is, his statement was pretty clear that he was referring to an actual physical barrier, not some enhanced patrols or something similar. Now, if you think that his plan all along was to simply put more border security in place, then you have to admit his talk of a "wall" was a lie.

 

Well of course he's talking about an actual physical barrier!  But he also talked about something else that could go with, or work with that barrier!  Like more border patrols, drones, motion sensors etc..,  He's talked about using technology too!

[betsy]

On 11/18/2016 at 2:42 PM, segnosaur said:

 But the fact that one possible solution is idiotic doesn't mean that other solutions aren't possible. For example, more money spent investigating crime in immigrant areas, which would actually target those who commit crime. Or investigating companies who hire illegal aliens.

 

 

You're in la-la land.

 

How many immigrants come forward to rat on their own - especially if they're going to rat on members of drug cartel, or yakuza, or Islamist terrorists?

In the meantime that you're spending millions investigating these element you've mentioned - you've left the door  wide open, and more are coming in! 

That would be like you frantically scooping water out of your leaky boat, and yet you've got this massive hole that you've left unplugged!  Now, that is idiotic....isn't it?

 

You won't solve the problem unless you get to the bottom of it!

Edited November 23, 2016 by betsy