Why are Liberals negotiating extradition treaty with China?

poochy · September 25, 2016

But but but we live in a post factual world!

O look, another non argument. You and smallc should put a travelling show together.

The point is that China will do as it pleases and there is no reason to beleive what they tell us, either in order to get someone extradited or what will actually happen to them once they are, and it doesn't have to be the death penalty to make it unnaceptable. All we do know is that they in general do not have the same standards of criminal justice or punishment that we do, it's an insult to our system to even mention the two in the same sentence.

Now, all of us here who aren't intent on childishly splitting every hair know this, it is fact, why you and your pal need to deflect away from the obvious with flippant remarks and red herrings is something for you to reflect on.

Smallc · September 25, 2016

If they don't do what they promise, the treaty is over. It's in their best interest to honour any agreement that they make.

?Impact · September 25, 2016

We can't trust ourselves to decide who we want here, but we can trust the Chinese to tell us who we should send to them for who knows what kind of punishment, surely.

Would you prefer that we just execute them here, or send them home for a 20 minute trial, followed by a shot in the back of the head?

So again I ask: So someone commits murder or rape in China, and then runs to Canada before being caught, what do you suggest? Do you want to harbour a murderer, rapist, etc? Do you want them roaming our streets freely?

Neither of you addressed the question, are you running to be Trump?

TimG · September 25, 2016

So again I ask: So someone commits murder or rape in China, and then runs to Canada before being caught, what do you suggest? Do you want to harbour a murderer, rapist, etc? Do you want them roaming our streets freely?

Neither of you addressed the question, are you running to be Trump?

I answered your question. You ignored the response:

Today China will not extradite murderers that flee to China from Canada but it with put them on trial in China.

(there have between too actual cases).

Canada can do the the same.

No need for a treaty.

Edited September 25, 2016 by TimG

Smallc · September 25, 2016

What does that even mean, no reason for a treaty? Why not formalize what happens and set rules around it?

TimG · September 25, 2016

What does that even mean, no reason for a treaty? Why not formalize what happens and set rules around it?

Without a treaty each time we choose to extradite a criminal it is a favour we do for the Chinese government. With a treaty refusing to extradite and accused because a judge is not convinced that Chinese will keep their promises becomes a diplomatic insult. We are much better keeping ourselves in a situation where the Chinese government needs to ask us for favours.

DogOnPorch · September 25, 2016

Who is a criminal in post-Mao Red China? There's the tricky part...

herples · September 25, 2016

Without a treaty each time we choose to extradite a criminal it is a favour we do for the Chinese government. With a treaty refusing to extradite and accused because a judge is not convinced that Chinese will keep their promises becomes a diplomatic insult. We are much better keeping ourselves in a situation where the Chinese government needs to ask us for favours.

The treaty would be ratified when both Canada and China are content with what the treaty says.

TimG · September 25, 2016

The treaty would be ratified when both Canada and China are content with what the treaty says.

Why do we need a treaty? What problem would be solved by such a treaty?

Would such a treaty prevent China from arresting Canadians on spurious charges and then denying access to Canadian government officials? If it did I could support such a treaty. But that is unlikely to be a provision in the treaty.

Edited September 25, 2016 by TimG

herples · September 25, 2016

Why do we need a treaty? What problem would be solved by such a treaty?

Would such a treaty prevent China from arresting Canadians on spurious charges and then denying access to Canadian government officials? If it did I could support such a treaty. But that is unlikely to be a provision in the treaty.

You won't really know till the government actually starts the process.

Argus · September 25, 2016

If they don't do what they promise, the treaty is over. It's in their best interest to honour any agreement that they make.

How are you going to know if they do what they say? Is the Canadian embassy going to do ongoing prison visits for everyone returned to China? For how long?

Are they going to investigate if the prisoner slips in the shower and breaks his neck (allegedly)?

Smallc · September 25, 2016

Without a treaty each time we choose to extradite a criminal it is a favour we do for the Chinese government. With a treaty refusing to extradite and accused because a judge is not convinced that Chinese will keep their promises becomes a diplomatic insult. We are much better keeping ourselves in a situation where the Chinese government needs to ask us for favours.

Extradition is not automatic, even with a treaty. We even refuse US extradition requests.

Smallc · September 25, 2016

How are you going to know if they do what they say? Is the Canadian embassy going to do ongoing prison visits for everyone returned to China? For how long?

Are they going to investigate if the prisoner slips in the shower and breaks his neck (allegedly)?

I'll leave that up to them.

TimG · September 25, 2016

You won't really know till the government actually starts the process.

The government has given no indication that it will seek to ensure due process for Canadians in China charged for crimes in China as part of the treaty. If the government wishes to convince people that starting the process is worthwhile it must communicate that such unusual items are part of its starting negotiating position. In the absence of such assurances then we must assume that the treaty would be very similar the treaty that we have with countries where due process is the norm. If that is the case there is no point starting discussions.

TimG · September 25, 2016

Extradition is not automatic, even with a treaty. We even refuse US extradition requests.

With the US, we cannot evaluate the evidence against the accused and must take the evidence at face value. This is not so much of an issue with the US because fabricated evidence comes up in any trial. In China, with no due process, there is no guarantee that the accused will be able to mount a defense against false evidence. When we have denied extradition to the US is not because of the evidence but because of the absurd punishments for the alleged crimes. Edited September 25, 2016 by TimG

Smallc · September 25, 2016

And I get all that - but it's hard to criticize without seeing a treaty - that may not even materialize.

cybercoma · September 25, 2016

Extradition is not automatic, even with a treaty. We even refuse US extradition requests.

It just keeps getting said over and over again, doesn't it?

bush_cheney2004 · September 25, 2016

.... When we have denied extradition to the US is not because of the evidence but because of the absurd punishments for the alleged crimes.

True...Canada absurdly believes that only Canadian laws and punishments should apply throughout the world.

cybercoma · September 25, 2016

True...Canada absurdly believes that only Canadian laws and punishments should apply throughout the world.

The United States doesn't even support the Hague. So don't come in here and preach about Canada standing up to other states.

bush_cheney2004 · September 25, 2016

The United States doesn't even support the Hague. So don't come in here and preach about Canada standing up to other states.

Nice try, but Canadians (or Americans) who commit crimes in other nations should be subject to local laws and prosecution. In China and the U.S., we fry 'em.

cybercoma · September 26, 2016

Should be in your opinion but we don't extradite when they face cruel and unusual punishment (that's frying them) because Canada is not a regressive cesspool with barbaric punishments.

Edited September 26, 2016 by cybercoma

Argus · September 26, 2016

Extradition is not automatic, even with a treaty. We even refuse US extradition requests.

Trudeau wouldn't have the balls to refuse anything China demanded.

DogOnPorch · September 26, 2016

Should be in your opinion but we don't extradite when they face cruel and unusual punishment (that's frying them) because Canada is not a regressive cesspool with barbaric punishments.

We just do business with Red China and its tank track-squishing ways.

Smallc · September 26, 2016

Trudeau wouldn't have the balls to refuse anything China demanded.

Then there would be a charter challenge and the person would never leave the country anyway.

?Impact · September 26, 2016

Again I ask, if someone commits a murder or rape in China a flees to Canada what do we do? The question has not been answered, despite pretending it was. Saying Canada is free to put them to trial is completely meaningless.