Because it's 2016

[dialamah]

But I have to agree with the right-wingers on this a bit too, it was kind of icky. By default the visit implies acceptance.

Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons will come to your house and visit you. They'll say nice things to you about yourself, your family, your housekeeping skills. But that doesn't mean they *accept* your lifestyle; they are essentially there to show you a different way. They know perfectly well that calling you names and demanding that you change won't convert you, but neither will not showing up at all.

[BC_chick]

I have to agree with msj - he brought women and said some pretty powerful stuff about Canadian values. It wasn't about acceptance.

We don't actually know that there is more than one guy.

Ok, well I'm not going by what you and msj read into his implications, I'm going by the things he actually said about diversity and acceptance.

And that guy is not just some guy, he's their Imam.

[kimmy]

I have to agree with msj - he brought women and said some pretty powerful stuff about Canadian values. It wasn't about acceptance.

From what I'm reading, he said not a single word about gender equality, but if there's a transcript that proves otherwise I'm open to being proven wrong.

-k

[kimmy]

My read on this is that he and his homies knew that Kellie Leitch has had the Conservatives in the news over this "un-Canadian values" thing, and they figured "HEEEEEY, here's our big opportunity to score some cheap political upvotes by showing we're different from the Conservatives by kissing some Muslim asses!"

Well, if you want to grab after the cheap political upvotes with a stunt like this, you're inevitably going to receive some political downvotes as well, and I think the criticism is warranted because his actions directly contradict his words.

I really want to hear him address this. I want to hear him reconcile his continued proclamations of his enthusiastic feminism with his endorsement of this gender-segregated space that he chose to give his speech in.

-k

[Smallc]

It's pretty easy to square the circle. He's for religious freedom as well as gender equality.

[bush_cheney2004]

Trudeau supports segregation....he is Canada's David Duke.

[Guest]

It's pretty easy to square the circle. He's for religious freedom as well as gender equality.

That's like being for Celtic as well as Rangers

Edited September 16, 2016 by bcsapper

[Smallc]

That's like being for Celtic as well as Rangers

And yet Canada guarantees both rights under the Constitution. Like I said, it's not a hard circle to square.

[Guest]

And yet Canada guarantees both rights under the Constitution. Like I said, it's not a hard circle to square.

It is. You can't be for both. You can pretend to be for both.

[kimmy]

It's pretty easy to square the circle. He's for religious freedom as well as gender equality.

If he's willing to endorse a venue that treats women as less-than-equal, I think it's entirely reasonable to question his commitment to gender equality.

Question: why didn't he speak at a more progressive mosque that doesn't practice segregation and supports what Kellie Leitch might call "Canadian values"?

-k

[cybercoma]

I'm not sure he endorsed the venue. Did he tell people they should convert to Islam and start going there? I missed that part.

[dialamah]

My read on this is that he and his homies knew that Kellie Leitch has had the Conservatives in the news over this "un-Canadian values" thing, and they figured "HEEEEEY, here's our big opportunity to score some cheap political upvotes by showing we're different from the Conservatives by kissing some Muslim asses!"

I think you are wrong. I think he goes to the most conservative places because that's where he sees the most change is needed. I think that specifically mentioning the women who also were there he offered them recognition and in that recognition, the seeds of taking their own power.

Too many people seem to think that by throwing verbal daggers and shunning people, you can get them to change. Never mind that the most respected and revered people are those who do not waft disapproval like a weapon; instead they offer companionship and help to whoever needs it. Think of Jesus or Mother Teresa (no, I am not comparing JT to them) - would either of them be even remembered if they said "Oh, THOSE people? No, don't talk to them: they don't do or think the same things I do."

[kimmy]

I'm not sure he endorsed the venue. Did he tell people they should convert to Islam and start going there? I missed that part.

I'm of the opinion that his decision to choose that place to give his speech was implicitly an endorsement.

And when he invited everyone to look around and take joy in the wonderful diversity that is Canada, I think that's pretty much an explicit endorsement.

And again, feel free to prove me wrong, but from what I am reading he studiously avoided any mention of gender equality or gay rights, so this is hardly the "Nixon goes to China" moment that some of his boosters would have you believe.

-k

[Smallc]

Question: why didn't he speak at a more progressive mosque that doesn't practice segregation and supports what Kellie Leitch might call "Canadian values"?

Context:

It's the oldest mosque in Ottawa

It's the largest and most visited mosque in Ottawa

It was visited by Chretien after September 11, 2001.

Kathleen Wynne went to the same mosque an made a speech last year.

Mayor Jim Watson attended the funeral of the man beaten to death by police during an arrest - at the same mosque.

Women are allowed onto the main floor - just not during prayer. Women were in the room during Trudeau's speech.

There are women on the board of the mosque.

http://muslimlink.ca/news/local/trudeau-visits-ottawa-muslim-association-for-eid

Maybe not quite as evil as it was made out to be.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Smallc

[bush_cheney2004]

Women are allowed onto the main floor - just not during prayer. Women were in the room during Trudeau's speech.

Women are segregated from the men during prayer and Trudeau supports this "religious" practice.

Trudeau be like George Wallace..."segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever".

[msj]

Women are segregated from the men during prayer and Trudeau supports this "religious" practice.

Citation please. Where has Trudeau stated that he supports it?

Where do people get this idea that if you are in the same vincinity as something that that means you automatically support it?

Tolerate it? Maybe.

After all, it is their mosque where people choose to worship in this way and our constitution allows for this.

Trudeau be like George Wallace..."segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever".

There you go bringing the good old USA into yet another Canadian thread..... Edited September 16, 2016 by msj

[bush_cheney2004]

Where do people get this idea that if you are in the same vincinity as something that that means you automatically support it?

Tolerate it? Maybe.

He purposely attended the event for political mileage, tolerating and endorsing religious freedom that includes misogyny.

After all, it is their mosque where people choose to worship in this way and our constitution allows for this.

There you go bringing the good old USA into yet another Canadian thread.....

It was Trudeau who smugly preached his ideology to Americans on 60 minutes. Some members here heaped plenty of scorn on PM Harper with comparisons to good old USA figures during his tenure...Trudeau deserves just as much. I will make sure he gets what he deserves.

Edited September 16, 2016 by bush_cheney2004

[Smallc]

It was Trudeau who smugly preached his ideology to Americans on 60 minutes.

No one brought that up - you're in the wrong area.

[msj]

I really want to hear him address this. I want to hear him reconcile his continued proclamations of his enthusiastic feminism with his endorsement of this gender-segregated space that he chose to give his speech in.

-k

Hmmm, odd claim.

In a different thread you indicated that you would agree to move on an airplane to accommodate an Orthodox Jew who was squeamish about sitting too near a woman (out of consideration for your fellow passengers).

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/24519-women-and-jews-on-a-plane/?p=1055095

How considerate of you to support gender segregation in such a hypothetical way.

Maybe you can square this circle for us?

I want to hear you reconcile it.

Edited September 16, 2016 by msj

[bush_cheney2004]

No one brought that up - you're in the wrong area.

Trudeau brought it up....he was in the wrong area.

[kimmy]

Hmmm, odd claim.

In a different thread you indicated that you would agree to move on an airplane to accommodate an Orthodox Jew who was squeamish about sitting too near a woman (out of consideration for your fellow passengers).

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/24519-women-and-jews-on-a-plane/?p=1055095

How considerate of you to support gender segregation in such a hypothetical way.

Maybe you can square this circle for us?

I want to hear you reconcile it.

I explained my rationale in the message you cite. Firstly out of desire to spare the other passengers the inconvenience of a delayed flight, and secondly out of desire to segregate myself from a bigot. Entirely different from seeking out a segregated space to speak in, as Trudeau did.

I asked earlier, and ask again: if he wanted to be among Muslims to celebrate Eid, why didn't he find a progressive mosque instead?

-k

[kimmy]

Context:

It's the oldest mosque in Ottawa

It's the largest and most visited mosque in Ottawa

It was visited by Chretien after September 11, 2001.

Kathleen Wynne went to the same mosque an made a speech last year.

Mayor Jim Watson attended the funeral of the man beaten to death by police during an arrest - at the same mosque.

Women are allowed onto the main floor - just not during prayer. Women were in the room during Trudeau's speech.

He picked the mosque because of tradition... but tradition is pretty much the root of the problem. Politicians go to this mosque because it's the mosque that politicians in Ottawa always go to. Services at the mosque are segregated because they've always been segregated. Women use the side door because that's how they've always done things. Who are we to knock tradition? Black people have separate water fountains because it's always been that way. Women don't get to vote because they've never been allowed to vote.

Maybe if Trudeau had chosen a more progressive mosque, then next time a politician decides to do an event at a mosque, they might think "ok, that's the one that Chretien spoke at in 2001, but this is the one Trudeau spoke at in 2016." Maybe by giving his implicit endorsement to a more progressive mosque he could have sent a more powerful message to both traditionalist Muslims and to Kellie Leitch.

There are women on the board of the mosque.

http://muslimlink.ca/news/local/trudeau-visits-ottawa-muslim-association-for-eid

Maybe not quite as evil as it was made out to be.

Oh, ok, so they're allowed to stand at the back as well as watch from the balcony.

#Progress

-k

[kimmy]

If Trudeau is really a man of principle, he will address this issue himself.

-k

[DogOnPorch]

If Trudeau is really a man of principle, he will address this issue himself.

-k

I doubt...highly doubt...he will. Islam obviously both trumps and tramples women's rights. Those female MPs were in veils.

....and said NOTHING.

[cybercoma]

He picked the mosque because of tradition... but tradition is pretty much the root of the problem.

-k

Tradition is a pretty broad brush when the problem is misogyny and violence.