Should Canada screen potential immigrants/refugees for Canadian Values

[Newfoundlander]

Tory leadership candidate Kellie Leitch has asked if Canada should start screening immigrants on their values, and in particular on their views of Canadian values.

It will shock no one here that I'm very strongly in favour. As for the suggestion they will simply lie, there are numerous carefully calculated personality screening tests out there which will give us a view of just how hostile potential newcomers are to basic freedoms, to accepting others views, to challenges to their own beliefs, not to mention their views on Jews, gays, and women.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/tory-leadership-hopeful-kellie-leitch-asks-whether-ottawa-should-screen-immigrants-for-anti-canadian-values

So current screening protocols are not enough?

[eyeball]

What does "home grown" mean to you?

The 3rd planet from the sun?

[PIK]

lol

Just because we have home grown does not mean we take the eye off the immigration ball.

[DogOnPorch]

And in the news....Trumps under every bed.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/kellie-leitch-donald-trump-vetting-1.3752812

[TimG]

I tried to introduce thoughts from 'the other side' but I'm so disillusioned that I can't even bother anymore.

You are disillusioned that people don't seem to want to agree with your opinions? Welcome to the club.

However, that does not change the fact that the TFWs and the minimum wages are both policies that governments introduce to "correct" problems with the labour market. For TFWs the problem is too few workers willing to work for the wages that companies want to pay. For minimum wages the problem is too many workers willing to work for wages which the government decides are too low.

Whenever the government intervenes in the market there will be negative consequences and it is important to understand what they are and whether they are significant enough to reconsider the policy.

For TFWs the negative consequence is it depresses wages because companies will seek to exploit the rules to lower wages (e.g. RBC and its IT workers). Governments can try to review every application to determine if companies really need TFWs to stay in business but that is impossible to do on a large scale. That I why I prefer a much more restrictive policy on TFWs outside of a few well-defined categories.

For minimum wages the negative consequences will be fewer jobs for unskilled workers which is a bad thing.

[cybercoma]

Until someone else realizes they can automate the job and sell it for half that. That's what capitalism is about.

And that's exactly the problem. What jobs will be left for people to support themselves when capitalism is all about driving expenses to zero? The system is unsustainable unless jobs, wages, and benefits are protected. People need work to support themselves. Companies need people to work so they can have customers.

[Argus]

Just one example of jobs that Canadians won't do:

I've already said that I make an exception for agricultural jobs. They're different from others because they require hard, physical labour and are away from major population centres. I'm okay with temporary foreign workers in this sector.

[Argus]

Btw, what do you Canadian people think of your immigration-policy? Is it strict or lax?

The first thing you have to remember is that any criticism of Canada's immigration policy is racist. You see, most of the people we let in are not white. Therefore, anyone who suggests letting in less immigrants is defacto suggesting we let in fewer visible minorities, and therefore is a racist.

That might sound insane, but the political, media, academic and union elites in central Canada are 100% of that view. This is why we have very few public discussions of immigration in Canada. The only time politicians raise the subject is to call for more immigration. Calling for more immigration is calling for more visible minorities to come here, so doing so proclaims how un-racist you are.

Canada used to let in about 84,000 immigrants a year. Then the Progressive Conservatives saw a study which said immigrants tend to vote for the party that let them in once they get to vote. So in 1983 they tripled immigration. We now bring in about 270,000 immigrants a year. Many of them do well. Many of them do not. You can find the latter jammed into every public housing project in Canada.

Our immigration system is not based on what Canada needs, but on the various political promises politicians make in order to extract votes from ethnic groups. For example, Trudeau promised to let in more old immigrants, seniors, despite this costing billions (which he didn't mention), and he promised to bring in more unskilled immigrants under the family reunification program, which also costs billions (which he didn't mention). This was done to get votes from certain ethnic groups.

How many do we actually need? That hardly matters.

[Argus]

You don't get it. If we don't allow tfw's, small business will go under, our hotel rooms won't get cleaned, fresh fruit and vegetables, meat and many other services/goods we take for granted will be gone or insanely expensive.

This is lame. When the US unemployment rate dropped very low in some states the fast food industry had to raise rates double and triple the minimum wage. In Hungary, where there is a labour shortage MacDonalds is offering free rooms to people to come from rural areas to work in their restaurants. Hotel rooms will be cleaned. And there will be fresh food and all the other things people need, even if employers have to raise wages a couple of bucks an hour.

BTW, it's interesting that your position on employers having to raise wages is the same as that of the most ferocious right wingers in the US Republican party. It's the same as the Tea Party, which fights against unions and against minimum wage hikes.

[Argus]

What a bunch of bs. This thread is so biased it's ridiculous. I tried to introduce thoughts from 'the other side' but I'm so disillusioned that I can't even bother anymore.

So because you offer up simplistic points which other people knock down those people are biased? Maybe we're 'biased' by knowledge you seem to lack.

So current screening protocols are not enough?

We make no effort at screening potential immigrants for anything but education, job skills, and criminality.

[?Impact]

I've already said that I make an exception for agricultural jobs. They're different from others because they require hard, physical labour and are away from major population centres. I'm okay with temporary foreign workers in this sector.

Many Canadians are willing to do hard physical labour, and live away from major population centres. The only problem is money, no more welfare for employers.

[Argus]

Many Canadians are willing to do hard physical labour, and live away from major population centres. The only problem is money, no more welfare for employers.

I've seen enough reports, and videos of farmers trying hard to recruit Canadians to pick apples and the like. Even when they can get some by promising generous wages most quit within a few days.

[?Impact]

I've seen enough reports, and videos of farmers trying hard to recruit Canadians to pick apples and the like. Even when they can get some by promising generous wages most quit within a few days.

Generous wages? Apple picking is usually piece work, and inexperienced workers barely make minimum wage if that. Yes, experienced workers can do better (maybe $25-$30/hour) but those that quit in the first few days didn't see anything like that. Apple picking is also seasonal work, and very short term at that. It is not a career, not something someone is going to uproot their family and move to the country for.

[Argus]

Generous wages? Apple picking is usually piece work, and inexperienced workers barely make minimum wage if that. Yes, experienced workers can do better (maybe $25-$30/hour) but those that quit in the first few days didn't see anything like that. Apple picking is also seasonal work, and very short term at that. It is not a career, not something someone is going to uproot their family and move to the country for.

True, which is why they need foreign workers - who CAN make $25-$30hr.

[?Impact]

True, which is why they need foreign workers - who CAN make $25-$30hr.

No, they need to deliver what they promised. It is just like those signs (or e-mails) that advertise earn a fortune in your spare time - complete fabrications. Invest in the workers, and it will pay off. Don't promise $25-$30 and hour and then deliver below minimum wage. Train the workers at a fair rate. This is no different than the scum corporations that look for unpaid interns. Picking apples is back breaking work, even for the inexperienced. Yes, you need an upside for the experienced people. How about $18/hour minimum, and $30/bin. Of course if the worker is completely useless, or doesn't improve, then you can fire them.

[TimG]

Don't promise $25-$30 and hour and then deliver below minimum wage. Train the workers at a fair rate.

It is unreasonable to expect companies to pay a fix rate because there is no incentive for workers to work harder. But they should provide a range based on what a worker can make based on a reasonable level of effort.

It is interesting that tree planting companies don't seem to need TFWs and pay by the tree:

http://www.tree-planter.com/?navigation_id=90

I guess farmers don't have the same cred with the urban environmental set.

[Bonam]

Is getting workers to pick apples really a problem? Cause pretty sure I could make an apple picking robot pretty easily...

[The_Squid]

And btw. I do agree that companies that can afford to raise wages should. I am all for raising minimum wage but you guys would be the first to argue against it.

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth...

You say businesses need to hire foreign workers because they can pay less, or they will go broke.

Then you say we should raise the minimum wage.

Which is it? Should businesses pay more for labour if they can't find workers, or not? Your stance makes no logical sense.

[?Impact]

Is getting workers to pick apples really a problem? Cause pretty sure I could make an apple picking robot pretty easily...

There is already some mechanization creeping into the field. The most promising is replacing the traditional sack used to gather the apples and carry them to the bin by a vacuum collection or track system. You still have a human doing the picking, but they place them into the conveyor which will carry them to the bin and place them gently to avoid bruising. This saves picking time and is easier on the workers. Current systems also provide a bit of a rest period between bins, although I expect that eventually eliminated with multiple bins on assembly line.

Eventually there might be completely mechanical pickers, although there are many challenges to overcome. One of the problems is finding the apples, especially as they could be hidden behind branches and leaves.

Not all apples are destined for the fruit aisle at the local supermarket and can accept some rougher handling as they will eventually be pressed for juice/cider.

Of course the farmer still needs to make the investment. Like most other farm investments in automation, larger operations get better payback.

[Rue]

Oh I remember the thread,and to respond to it I would say its absurd to think you could screen people by a questionnaire as to their values. They'd just lie.

To do a proper screening you would never rely on the subject's statement, its necessarily self serving to get in the country.

Right now Canada has no apparatus that screens terrorists from coming to Canada. The truth is any terrorist can come here as an immigrant, a tourist, a refugee. Its not hard to get your way in. Hell the few CSIS agents we have are underpaid and can't even handle the screenings they are asked to do with government employees.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Rue

[bjre]

Tory leadership candidate Kellie Leitch has asked if Canada should start screening immigrants on their values, and in particular on their views of Canadian values.

It will shock no one here that I'm very strongly in favour. As for the suggestion they will simply lie, there are numerous carefully calculated personality screening tests out there which will give us a view of just how hostile potential newcomers are to basic freedoms, to accepting others views, to challenges to their own beliefs, not to mention their views on Jews, gays, and women.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/tory-leadership-hopeful-kellie-leitch-asks-whether-ottawa-should-screen-immigrants-for-anti-canadian-values

If someone insist to come, tests are easy to pass, especially with the help of the agents. So you will get more liars come instead of honest people.

However, you may not mind, because most politicians tell lies too.

There are people who believe the west propaganda. but after they come and see the real situation, they are frustrated. So your test only test the previous status, it is useless for the person in future.

[?Impact]

Hell the few CSIS agents we have are underpaid and can't even handle the screenings they are asked to do with government employees.

3,300 employees at CSIS. With 260,000 federal government employees, how many 'agents' do they need to do screenings? They are already over 1% of the workforce.

[Newfoundlander]

We make no effort at screening potential immigrants for anything but education, job skills, and criminality.

So what else should they be screened for?

[?Impact]

So what else should they be screened for?

Race & religion I presume. Language is probably also on his list, but further down.

[Argus]

No, they need to deliver what they promised. It is just like those signs (or e-mails) that advertise earn a fortune in your spare time - complete fabrications. Invest in the workers, and it will pay off. Don't promise $25-$30 and hour and then deliver below minimum wage. Train the workers at a fair rate. This is no different than the scum corporations that look for unpaid interns.

You know that's beyond the ability of a farmer. Even corporations rarely do that. When I got work doing data entry for the Canada Revenue Agency there was a scale of how much money you got per hour and it was based on how many words per minute you wound up typing (excluding mistakes). It's the same in a lot of industries. You stick around, keep at it, and you get good and so the employer rewards you with a higher salary. Piecework is like that.