Should Canada screen potential immigrants/refugees for Canadian Values

[Peter F]

But you WILL be living next to and among Nazis if we bring them over in sufficient numbers, year after year. And their beliefs WILL begin to influence your society towards the direction of their beliefs and demands.

So? You're advocating for thought police and nothing short of that. I advocate all sorts of things that don't much agree with you or others. I actually have influenced people from time to time. There are many who lament the influence others have to do disagreeable things. Why do you consider us - Canadians - to be helpless in the face of others beliefs or opinions?

[Argus]

In that case why take in refugees? Why me? I didn't help. I just married a Canuck.

In most cases we should NOT be taking in refugees. Our refugee program has grown and become twisted in the same way our employment insurance program has. EI was originally a simple insurance scheme for those who become unemployed. Now it has morphed into an income support program for a variety of industries and regions. We should only be taking in refugees who are being subjected to personal government abuse due to their peaceful political opposition to their government or those who face continued attack and danger merely due to their race or religion. We do not have the ability to take in any substantial numbers of refugees, not enough to make a difference, in wars like that which are going on in Syria, say, or northern Africa. The money we spend housing a single refugee family in Toronto with little likelihood of them ever being self-supporting would probably feed, clothe and house twenty other families in Lebanon or Jordan or Turkey.

[Argus]

So? You're advocating for thought police and nothing short of that. I advocate all sorts of things that don't much agree with you or others. I actually have influenced people from time to time. There are many who lament the influence others have to do disagreeable things. Why do you consider us - Canadians - to be helpless in the face of others beliefs or opinions?

Because squishy, amiable, reasonable, polite, understanding, inclusive people faced with harshly determined, fanatic, rigid determination and absolute moral certainty tend to give way and make compromises to accommodate them. And the more you accommodate them and the more their numbers grow the more accommodation they will demand. You can call it thought police all you want but if we were advocating bringing in hundreds of thousands of KKK members from Georgia and Alabama because they were being persecuted there you'd be up in arms and rightly so.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Argus

[BC_chick]

Given how I believe that human life begins at concepton and that marriage is between a man and a woman, even I would not pass Leitch's test.

I don't think she'd pass her own test either.

[dialamah]

Because squishy, amiable, reasonable, polite, understanding, inclusive people faced with harshly determined, fanatic, rigid determination and absolute moral certainty tend to give way and make compromises to accommodate them.

And yet, Western Religious Conservatives haven't had any luck with their campaign to outlaw abortion, gay marriage, bathroom accommodations etc. Historically it seems that progressives win out over conservatives; I don't think that's going to change any time soon.

[Machjo]

I don't think she'd pass her own test either.

So she expects foreign nationals to out-Herod Herod then, to be more 'Canadian' than a 'Canadian?'

Isn't that the definition of a hypocrite?

[Michael Hardner]

http://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/kellie-leitch-anti-canadian-values/

Kellie Leitch interview 1/2 way through the podcast.

[BC_chick]

According to Angus Reid, there is not 1 set of Canadian Values, but 5. CBC has put together a quiz to see where you fit on the scale.

I'm not young and I thought I'm a melting-pot advocate since that's the values my parents instilled in me when we came to Canada, but the rest is pretty accurate:

Permissive Reformer illustration

Tending to be younger, university educated and living in cities, members of this group believe strongly in favour of more government support for Indigenous people and greater acceptance of the LGBT community. They are much more likely to believe Canada should encourage cultural diversity.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/which-type-of-canadian-are-you-answer-these-questions-to-find-out-1.3786252

[?Impact]

CBC has put together a quiz to see where you fit on the scale.

What a dumb poll, many of the questions cannot be answered. For example, it lumps refugees in with immigration - two very different issues.

[BC_chick]

What a dumb poll, many of the questions cannot be answered. For example, it lumps refugees in with immigration - two very different issues.

Oh yeah, that particular one stumped me too.

[-1=e^ipi]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/which-type-of-canadian-are-you-answer-these-questions-to-find-out-1.3786252

Love how they make free enterprise advocates look evil and public sector proponents look good.

[Benz]

The money we spend housing a single refugee family in Toronto with little likelihood of them ever being self-supporting would probably feed, clothe and house twenty other families in Lebanon or Jordan or Turkey.

True, but the picture is bigger than that. Turkey, Lebanon, etc... are receiving refugies by millions. We just take few thousands. What we do is a fraction of what they do. We definitely do not send enough money to help them deal with that and they are overwhelmed.

We are in better conditions to welcome few more.

Imagine for a moment that we welcome the same number of what Turkey got. It's moreless the population of the whole maritimes.

The cost and the capacity to help those people in distress is irrelevant. We do it because we can. It's not the issue. The issue is the non-integration of few of them.

[BC_chick]

Love how they make free enterprise advocates look evil and public sector proponents look good.

They all looked like kooky stereotypes to me.

[-1=e^ipi]

They all looked like kooky stereotypes to me.

Idk, the free market person is the evil hateful person who is angry. Where as the public sector proponent is a happy smiling person who is dancing with Canada flags.

Subliminal message: if you love Canada, you should be a public sector proponent. In particular, love the CBC and vote for parties that will give us more funding.

[BC_chick]

Idk, the free market person is the evil hateful person who is angry. Where as the public sector proponent is a happy smiling person who is dancing with Canada flags.

Subliminal message: if you love Canada, you should be a public sector proponent. In particular, love the CBC and vote for parties that will give us more funding.

The free enterprise guy was supposed to be mostly over 55 and mostly men. That's how I read that frown.

And what about the Permissive Reformer with the frizzy hair holding a sign? You really think that's a positive image?

[Benz]

The free enterprise guy was supposed to be mostly over 55 and mostly men. That's how I read that frown.

And what about the Permissive Reformer with the frizzy hair holding a sign? You really think that's a positive image?

You have to admit that the "Free Enterprise Enthusiast" does not look so enthusiast.

[Benz]

Subliminal message: if you love Canada, you should be a public sector proponent. In particular, love the CBC and vote for parties that will give us more funding.

I understand what you are saying but, look again. She has closed eyes like if she does not want to see the real world and she cares only about her own imagination. It also looks like the typical "I do not know what is going on in the world, I just want to be happy" stereotype.

Maybe it is not as much right-thinking oriented as you say. Easy on your filters.

[Benz]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/which-type-of-canadian-are-you-answer-these-questions-to-find-out-1.3786252

What caught my attention is the Permessive Reformer's last phrase. "They are much more likely to believe Canada should encourage cultural diversity". That more than permissive. It's excessive. Being open to diversity is one thing, encourage diversity with government intervention is something else.

Diversity should not be encourage or discorage. It's something you must accept as a non issue. The issues are regarding the racism and xenophobia toward diversity. Not the existence of diversity itself.

[BC_chick]

You have to admit that the "Free Enterprise Enthusiast" does not look so enthusiast.

No, he doesn't. With that frown and the dollar bill, he looks like a greedy old guy.

But my point is that they are all stereotypical caricatures. I saw the public sector proponet exactly as you did in your post above. Clued out.

[Argus]

I don't think she'd pass her own test either.

This sort of response is just idiotic. You people continue to wildly exaggerate the differences in social values between Canadian conservatives, liberals and NDP supporters, while wildly downplaying the vastly larger differences between us all and people from Muslim nations. In reality there is only a small difference, on the world scale, between the values of Canadian leftist, centrists and rightists, and a vast chasm between us all and those people from Muslim nations.

[Argus]

And yet, Western Religious Conservatives haven't had any luck with their campaign to outlaw abortion, gay marriage, bathroom accommodations etc. Historically it seems that progressives win out over conservatives; I don't think that's going to change any time soon.

Progressives will cave in an instant when they see a brown face making a demand. Doing otherwise would be racist, you see. That's why a western religious conservative who doesn't approve of gay marriage is evil incarnate but a Muslim who believes all gays should be executed is a wonderful fellow who is simply a little misguided. And unlike western religious conservatives, Muslim numbers are doubling every 7-10 years, and mostly in Ontario.

[Argus]

True, but the picture is bigger than that. Turkey, Lebanon, etc... are receiving refugies by millions. We just take few thousands. What we do is a fraction of what they do. We definitely do not send enough money to help them deal with that and they are overwhelmed.

No, they're not overwhelmed. They can accommodate the newcomers, if they have the money. It's the money that is in short supply. Remember that the newcomers have the same education, skillset, religion and cultural values as their neighbors, and mostly the same language. They can be accommodated for a few years, and then go back to Iraq and Syria when the fighting passes. Turkey is so 'overwhelmed' Erdogan is talking about giving the refugees Turkish citizenship. He wants a bigger population because that gives him more clout.

It's not the issue. The issue is the non-integration of few of them.

No, it is the non-integration of most of them. Again, there is this prevailing attitude that the second generation will be just like us. But it isn't playing out that way. The second generation is even more strictly religious and conservative than their parents. They aren't more secular but less secular. Their value system is based on their religion. So instead of comparing them to the Ukrainians, say, or Germans or Poles who came here, compare them to the Hutterites, and Amish and Ultra Orthodox Jews. None of them have changed their cultural views or values a bit despite generations in Canada.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Argus

[Machjo]

This sort of response is just idiotic. You people continue to wildly exaggerate the differences in social values between Canadian conservatives, liberals and NDP supporters, while wildly downplaying the vastly larger differences between us all and people from Muslim nations. In reality there is only a small difference, on the world scale, between the values of Canadian leftist, centrists and rightists, and a vast chasm between us all and those people from Muslim nations.

Firstly, not all immigrants from 'Muslim nations' profess Islam.

Secondly, not all immigrants come from 'Muslim nations.

Thirdly, don't you see the possiblity for abuse of a 'Canadian-values' test? Imagine all of the questions any party can throw in once it forms the government after an election. Worse yet, a new governmentcould keep the same questions but change the correct answer.

[Machjo]

And Argus, honestly, even I would probably not pass Leitch's Canadian-values test.

[?Impact]

That's why a western religious conservative who doesn't approve of gay marriage is evil incarnate but a Muslim who believes all gays should be executed is a wonderful fellow who is simply a little misguided.

That's why Conservatives have to lie in order to make a point. They are both disgusting, but as a Conservative you have to lie about what others think in order to make yourself seem smugly superior.

Edited October 4, 2016 by ?Impact