Terrorism in Turkey

[Altai]

Really? You actually believe all western media are making 'propaganda' against Turkey? Why? Unlike in your country they can't be pressured by the government, shut down with phony tax notices or be arrested for annoying their governments.

No, there were some initial reports quoting the US government but they were later denied.

Drivel. Your own media is almost completely owned by the government and friends of the government. This is well known. Erdogan is taking his cues in how to establish himself as dictator for life from Vladimir Putin.

How does a journalist violate the constitution? A constitution is a set of rules which says what government can and cannot do. It says nothing about journalists or other private citizens. Apparently you simply accept whatever your government tells you without question. That's sad.

You would get he same view from a Putin loyalist in Russia. All they know is what their government tells them and they believe it without question.

Pay Turkey to drop bombs on ISIS when they've been backing ISIS? Unlikely.

I really cant do anything for you. You are heavily brainwashed about my country. Believe what you want to believe I dont care.

[GostHacked]

I really cant do anything for you. You are heavily brainwashed about my country. Believe what you want to believe I dont care.

I am not sure you can trust your own media. All of it has been slanted and tainted. So I would even go as far as saying people in Turkey along with us in Canada are being mislead.

[Altai]

I am not sure you can trust your own media. All of it has been slanted and tainted. So I would even go as far as saying people in Turkey along with us in Canada are being mislead.

Ofcourse I cant even trust my father %100, we are human beings and may perform mistakes anytime, on purpose or mistakenly. News agencies cant be trusted in the same way. They can mislead people on purpose or mistakenly. Here our responsibility is to question events which we heard from them.

For example, its quite illogical to claim that Turkiye supports Deash. Its just another false propaganda about Turkiye but many people believe in it without even questioning it. We need to ask questions and answer the questions until we find the most logical explanation.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Altai

[dialamah]

Call me weird, but if I want to understand a region, I'd start with the people who live there and the local media services. Sure, they'll be biased, but it strikes me as the height of hubris to disregard what can be learned from those sources and instead rely on what a biased media a half a world away tells you.

[Argus]

I really cant do anything for you. You are heavily brainwashed about my country. Believe what you want to believe I dont care.

Well, let's see. I live in a free country with an independent media, and have full access to all international media. You live in a corrupt dictatorship with a government controlled media.

And you think I'm brainwashed? Uh huh.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Argus

[Argus]

Call me weird, but if I want to understand a region, I'd start with the people who live there and the local media services. Sure, they'll be biased, but it strikes me as the height of hubris to disregard what can be learned from those sources and instead rely on what a biased media a half a world away tells you.

It's the height of lunacy to call western media biased and instead suggest we pay attention to government controlled media in a dictatorship.

Do you likewise think that RT tells us the truth about life in Russia and we should believe Izvestia about what a great guy Putin is?

Last month Turkey ordered the arrest of dozens of journalists as part of their 'investigation' into the coup attempt. So far they've arrested tens of thousands of people, from journalists to academics to judges and cops and civil servants, all allegedly involved in the coup plotting. One wonders how a coup with tens of thousands of people involved failed so quickly.

Here, from that 'biased' western media organization Human Rights Watch.

(Istanbul) – The Turkish government’s news media shutdown shows how the State of Emergency law is being used to deny the right to free speech beyond any legitimate aim of upholding public order today. The government ordered 131 newspapers, news agencies, publishers, television, and radio stations to close down.

The decree (no. 668) ordering the closures, published in the Official Gazette on July 27, 2016, comes after prosecutors issued arrest warrants for 89 journalists, media workers, and executives over two days. The closures and detentions demonstrate an accelerated campaign against media the government identifies as supportive of the Fethullah Gülen movement, which it blames for the violent coup attempt in Turkey on July 15.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/07/28/turkey-media-shut-down-journalists-detained

Edited August 31, 2016 by Argus

[Moonlight Graham]

Pay Turkey to drop bombs on ISIS when they've been backing ISIS? Unlikely.

I never said anything about ISIS

[Altai]

It's the height of lunacy to call western media biased and instead suggest we pay attention to government controlled media in a dictatorship.

Do you likewise think that RT tells us the truth about life in Russia and we should believe Izvestia about what a great guy Putin is?

Last month Turkey ordered the arrest of dozens of journalists as part of their 'investigation' into the coup attempt. So far they've arrested tens of thousands of people, from journalists to academics to judges and cops and civil servants, all allegedly involved in the coup plotting. One wonders how a coup with tens of thousands of people involved failed so quickly.

Here, from that 'biased' western media organization Human Rights Watch.

(Istanbul) – The Turkish government’s news media shutdown shows how the State of Emergency law is being used to deny the right to free speech beyond any legitimate aim of upholding public order today. The government ordered 131 newspapers, news agencies, publishers, television, and radio stations to close down.

The decree (no. 668) ordering the closures, published in the Official Gazette on July 27, 2016, comes after prosecutors issued arrest warrants for 89 journalists, media workers, and executives over two days. The closures and detentions demonstrate an accelerated campaign against media the government identifies as supportive of the Fethullah Gülen movement, which it blames for the violent coup attempt in Turkey on July 15.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/07/28/turkey-media-shut-down-journalists-detained

Why do you always show your own sources as the "fact" sources ? They cant wash your brain as long as you dont want them to wash your brain. You are allowing them to wash your brain. These detained people are heavy or light suspects suspect of being linked with CIA agent Gulen's organization. This is a democracy, they will be judged and be jailed or be released. You can come to Turkiye and join their courts.

Having a journalist ID card does not give you a right to violate constitution.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Altai

[TimG]

Having a journalist ID card does not give you a right to violate constitution.

Argus made a very important point: Private citizens, including journalists, cannot violate the constitution.

Only governments can violate the constitution.

Saying that journalists "violated the constitution" is like saying 2+2=15.

It is simply makes no sense.

Would you please provide an answer to this point.

Simply saying that Argus is "brainwashed" does not make the massive hole in your argument go away.

Edited September 1, 2016 by TimG

[Solidarity]

Turkey/Syria are among the world's most geopolitically significant places right now. There is a struggle for influence and power, many of the major powers are deeply involved. The EU refugee crisis, a possible Kurdistan,and the recent attempted Coup illustrate the magnitude of the stakes. Recent developments suggest a deal has been struck behind the scenes involving at minimum Turkey, Syria, Iran, Russia. Interesting times for sure.

[Altai]

Argus made a very important point: Private citizens, including journalists, cannot violate the constitution.

Only governments can violate the constitution.

Saying that journalists "violated the constitution" is like saying 2+2=15.

It is simply makes no sense.

Would you please provide an answer to this point.

Simply saying that Argus is "brainwashed" does not make the massive hole in your argument go away.

Making 90 km/h on a road with 70km/h speed limit is to violate constitution. Robbery is to violate constitution. Murder is to violate constitution. So everyone can violate the constitution. So performing any action which is against the laws is to violate constitution.

[TimG]

Making 90 km/h on a road with 70km/h speed limit is to violate constitution.

I suspect you are having problems with English. What you are talking about are laws - not the constitution. There is a huge difference. Laws can violate the constitution which is why the courts will strike down laws passed by the government. People cannot violate the constitution unless the fill an official role like the President. Erdogan regularly violates the constitution of Turkey which is why his commands keep getting over turned by the Constitutional Court. Journalists cannot violate the constution and it is likely that any laws which Erdogan claims they have broken are not valid under the Constitution of Turkey.

See: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-twitter-ban-idUSBREA311BF20140402

Edited September 1, 2016 by TimG

[Altai]

I suspect you are having problems with English. What you are talking about are laws - not the constitution. There is a huge difference. Laws can violate the constitution which is why the courts will strike down laws passed by the government. People cannot violate the constitution unless the fill an official role like the President. Erdogan regularly violates the constitution of Turkey which is why his commands keep getting over turned by the Constitutional Court. Journalists cannot violate the constution and it is likely that any laws which Erdogan claims they have broken are not valid under the Constitution of Turkey.

See: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-twitter-ban-idUSBREA311BF20140402

My bad, so I accept the criminal laws as a part of constitution and this is why I say they violate constitution, sorry. I mean they violate the laws.

Ofcourse the president does not violate constitutional order, you should back your claim with legal documents. Your news source does not include any.

[TimG]

I accept the criminal laws as a part of constitution and this is why I say they violate constitution, sorry. I mean they violate the laws.

We need to be precise to avoid misunderstandings: criminal laws are not part of the constitution. They are passed by governments that are required to follow the rules defined in the constitution but they are not "part of the constitution".

Ofcourse the president does not violate constitutional order, you should back your claim with legal documents. Your news source does not include any.

I link I provided was clear. It said the "Constitutional Court" in Turkey ruled that the Twitter ban was unconstitutional. That is all the evidence I need to supply. If you have reason to believe that statement is false then please provide it.

I was also not precise. What I meant is laws passed by the government run by Erdogan violated the constitution.

Edited September 1, 2016 by TimG

[Argus]

Why do you always show your own sources as the "fact" sources ?

Well, you seemed to suggest ALL western media are biased against Turkey so I quoted a well-known and highly reputable human rights group instead. If the only source you regard as legitimate is one approved by the Turkish government then I think it is you who is brainwashed.

These detained people are heavy or light suspects suspect of being linked with CIA agent Gulen's organization.

First, your government has presented ZERO evidence that Gulen was in any way responsible or involved in the attempted coup. Second, there is no evidence whatsoever that Gulen is even remotely associated with the CIA. Third, your believe that there could be 60,000 coup plotters defies logic. How could so many people be involved in a coup plot without Turkey's intelligence agencies finding out? Why would coup plotters involve journalists anyway?

This is a democracy, they will be judged and be jailed or be released. You can come to Turkiye and join their courts.

Turkey is not really a democracy any more, for like Russia, it is in the processes of removing all independence from media, police, and courts.

[Argus]

I link I provided was clear. It said the "Constitutional Court" in Turkey ruled that the Twitter ban was unconstitutional. That is all the evidence I need to supply. If you have reason to believe that statement is false then please provide it.

I don't think you'll find any courts overruling Erdogan much any more. His government has worked hard the last couple of years changing the way judges are appointed, firing and reassigning thousands of them, and ensuring that his own people are now in charge.

In a striking illustration of how the judiciary was transformed, members of top courts — including the Appeals Court, the Council of State, the Court of Accounts and the Military Appeals Court — have joined Erdogan on trips across Turkey and applauded his tirades against the opposition.

It was against this backdrop that the HSYK replaced thousands of judges and prosecutors. The objective of its decree was unmistakable. For instance, a judge who had petitioned the Constitutional Court to cancel a legal provision under which hundreds of people were charged with “insulting” Erdogan was “exiled” from a major city to a small province, while another who had eagerly brought such charges was promoted to deputy chief prosecutor in Ankara. Similarly, a judge who had blocked the construction of a cluster of summer houses, allegedly for the Erdogan family, in a protected seafront area was downgraded, while judges and prosecutors who were instrumental in furthering judicial onslaughts on colleagues and police officers involved in the 2013 corruption probes or the attempt to investigate Turkish arms shipments to Syria were promoted to prominent positions.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/06/turkey-judicial-independence-took-severe-blow.html

[Altai]

We need to be precise to avoid misunderstandings: criminal laws are not part of the constitution. They are passed by governments that are required to follow the rules defined in the constitution but they are not "part of the constitution".

I link I provided was clear. It said the "Constitutional Court" in Turkey ruled that the Twitter ban was unconstitutional. That is all the evidence I need to supply. If you have reason to believe that statement is false then please provide it.

I was also not precise. What I meant is laws passed by the government run by Erdogan violated the constitution.

I was 14 years old when this event happened in 2014. I am currently reading about it.

The event happens as follows;

1) Some Twitter accounts violates the laws. The victims applies to the court. The court finds the contents against the laws and wants Twitter to delete/close the pages.

2) Twitter ignores the court decision for days and violates the constitution.

3) Then "The telecommunications chairmanship" gets the authority to close the pages within its competenc. It has right to close the related pages but not Twitter complately. They close the Twitter complately and violates the constitution.

4) Then Turkish Supreme Court makes a statement about the issue and violates the constitution. Because Turkish Supreme Court has no right to involve issue at that time.

I am still researching. I still cant find full of the privileges of the telecommunications chairmanship at 2014.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Altai

[Altai]

Well, you seemed to suggest ALL western media are biased against Turkey so I quoted a well-known and highly reputable human rights group instead. If the only source you regard as legitimate is one approved by the Turkish government then I think it is you who is brainwashed.

First, your government has presented ZERO evidence that Gulen was in any way responsible or involved in the attempted coup. Second, there is no evidence whatsoever that Gulen is even remotely associated with the CIA. Third, your believe that there could be 60,000 coup plotters defies logic. How could so many people be involved in a coup plot without Turkey's intelligence agencies finding out? Why would coup plotters involve journalists anyway?

Turkey is not really a democracy any more, for like Russia, it is in the processes of removing all independence from media, police, and courts.

You will find my ideas about the "highly reputable sources" in another post of my in previous pages.

My government has suggested hundreds of evidences about Gulen Turkish terror organization but ofcourse CIA wont want to deliver its agent such easily. We have many many more evidence about Gulen than US's evidences to invade Afghanistan and Iraq or any other countries.

I dont think that Turkish intelligence was not aware of the coup attempt, MIT is quite strong especially in ME and in Africa. For example they warned Mursi the elected president of Egypt weeks before the coup to get him from Egypt and bring to Turkiye but he rejected and wanted to stay in Egypt.

Anyway, so the coup attempt was also something expected to be done and MIT just allowed them to take an action. Because it was impossible to arrest this much of Gulenists in such short time without such a big event such a big crime. It would take so much time to find reliable excuses to take hundreds of thousands Gulenists. Gulenists were also so strong in MIT too.

Turkiye is much more democratic country than many Western countries. Can you make anti-Israel news in Canada or how many times you can ? You cant. Gulen terror organization is also soo strong in Canada. They are settled in many of state bodies. They are soo strong in many countries.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Altai

[Argus]

Turkiye is much more democratic country than many Western countries. Can you make anti-Israel news in Canada or how many times you can ? You cant. Gulen terror organization is also soo strong in Canada. They are settled in many of state bodies. They are soo strong in many countries.

You are listening to propaganda news. There is no Gulen organization in western countries, at least, not one with any influence. And if you believe saying nasty things about Israel is the basis of what you call press freedom then... that's just sad. The real measure of press freedom is being able to say nasty things about your own government and its leader. You'll notice that here on this site we say nasty things about our government and our leader all the time. But in your country it's against the law to insult Erdogan.

ISTANBUL — Since August 2014, 1,845 criminal cases have been opened against Turks for insulting their president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a crime that carries a penalty of up to four years in prison. Among the offenders are journalists, authors, politicians, a famous soccer star, even schoolchildren

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/03/world/europe/crackdown-dissent-turkey-insults-recep-tayyip-erdogan.html?_r=0

[Altai]

You are listening to propaganda news. There is no Gulen organization in western countries, at least, not one with any influence. And if you believe saying nasty things about Israel is the basis of what you call press freedom then... that's just sad. The real measure of press freedom is being able to say nasty things about your own government and its leader. You'll notice that here on this site we say nasty things about our government and our leader all the time. But in your country it's against the law to insult Erdogan.

ISTANBUL — Since August 2014, 1,845 criminal cases have been opened against Turks for insulting their president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a crime that carries a penalty of up to four years in prison. Among the offenders are journalists, authors, politicians, a famous soccer star, even schoolchildren

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/03/world/europe/crackdown-dissent-turkey-insults-recep-tayyip-erdogan.html?_r=0

They are strongest in US first, and Canada is the second country where they are strongest. They have many foundations, associations, unions, schools in Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg, London, Waterloo, Hamilton. You are in their hands, ofcourse you are not aware of them, this is how they works. They wont say "heyyy we are the members of FETO Turkish terror organization."

For example they will say that "we want to be business partner with you but we want %60 of total profit". If you are a clever person, you will accept the offer, if you reject them you will lose all the business because of various reasons. You will never know that who were they.

Or they will say what a cute person you are and they will want to meet all your education costs. You will think that "awww there are still good people on the earth" and you will accept their offer. You will graduate from your university and they will want you to work for a "perfect company of them with a perfect salary", you will accept this perfect offer too and one day they will want you to make a favor for them and ignore some illegal actions of them.

Israel was just an example. Its a perfect litmus paper to understand whether or not a country is really free. You cant make any bad statement about Israel in Canada, maybe one time but not for a second. You are not a free country.

Insult is not accepted as "freedom of speech" in my country. You cant insult to any person, does not matter its a president or an ordinary citizen. The same laws applied in many other countries including Europe. Your freedom of speech ends when you start to violate my rights. If you have an idea, you are free to express it, insult is not an idea but hate speech.

Edited September 2, 2016 by Altai

[GostHacked]

Turkiye is much more democratic country than many Western countries. Can you make anti-Israel news in Canada or how many times you can ? You cant. Gulen terror organization is also soo strong in Canada. They are settled in many of state bodies. They are soo strong in many countries.

IS this trolling???

[dialamah]

Insult is not accepted as "freedom of speech" in my country. You cant insult to any person, does not matter its a president or an ordinary citizen. The same laws applied in many other countries including Europe. Your freedom of speech ends when you start to violate my rights. If you have an idea, you are free to express it, insult is not an idea but hate speech.

Does that mean that if someone insults you, the police will put them in jail - if I were in Turkey and I said "Altai is stupid", would that make me subject to arrest? Are there some insults that are more serious than others?

I've never heard of laws against insults in any European country. Are you perhaps thinking of slander, where making an untrue statement about someone, which causes them some substantial harm, can result in being taken to court? I don't think being arrested usually comes into though, as it's considered a civil rather than a criminal matter.

IS this trolling???

I think it's a 16-year-old girl from another country saying what she believes to be true.

[Altai]

Does that mean that if someone insults you, the police will put them in jail - if I were in Turkey and I said "Altai is stupid", would that make me subject to arrest? Are there some insults that are more serious than others?

I've never heard of laws against insults in any European country. Are you perhaps thinking of slander, where making an untrue statement about someone, which causes them some substantial harm, can result in being taken to court? I don't think being arrested usually comes into though, as it's considered a civil rather than a criminal matter.

I think it's a 16-year-old girl from another country saying what she believes to be true.

Yes if I complaint to the prosecutor's office together my evidences that you called me "stupid", you will be judged and be sentenced. You cant attack my personality, this is my right to live in peace without being disturbed by someones. If you think that there is something illegal or wrong with me, you need to apply to police and they will guide you on what to do. Yes insulting my personality and insulting my family may be sentenced in different ways.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2027671-Man-gets-30-days-in-jail-for-insulting-the-Dutch-king

For example is it free to insult to a poster in this forum ? and why if yes or no ?

Edited September 2, 2016 by Altai

[dialamah]

Yes if I complaint to the prosecutor's office together my evidences that you called me "stupid", you will be judged and be sentenced. You cant attack my personality, this is my right to live in peace without being disturbed by someones. If you think that there is something illegal or wrong with me, you need to apply to police and they will guide you on what to do. Yes insulting my personality and insulting my family may be sentenced in different ways.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2027671-Man-gets-30-days-in-jail-for-insulting-the-Dutch-king

For example is it free to insult to a poster in this forum ? and why if yes or no ?

I cannot say "Altai is stupid" in this forum, but I can say "What you said is stupid". Calling you stupid will get me suspended for some period of time but only if someone complains to the moderators.

Outside this forum I can call anybody stupid and I will not be arrested. But I can't say I want to kill someone; that may get me arrested.

[dialamah]

I find it interesting that any sort of insult could result in legal action in Turkey. Do you know if many people actually go to the courts if they are insulted? Are insults rarely heard between people?