dre Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) On the other hand, if instead of saying that you give long speeches on how Jews are evil and cruel and are killing babies to drink their blood, and how Jews are controlling the world and stealing everyone's money to enrich themselves and abusing your women and conspiring to destroy your country We don't need hate speech laws for that. There's already exceptions to freedom of speech for slander and libel. A group of jews should be able to bring a class action suit before the courts, demonstrated damages, and get a cease and desist order, and even compensation for damages, or punitive judgements. And the "truth" is always a defense against slander and libel. We would need to tweak defamation laws in order to allow for this though. The last thing we need is a government bureaucracy to look at the millions of inflammatory statements pretty much every group makes about every other group, and make subject decisions on who should get charged. Edited August 19, 2016 by dre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Even if the latter is obviously causing ignorant people to carry out violent physical attacks on Jews? Then you start getting into levels of ignorance. If you banned everything that got some ignorant git to react, no-one would ever say anything. Stop the ingnoramuses, not the speech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 I agree with free speech and abhor censorship All freedoms should have reasonable limits placed on them. Freedom of speech should include the ability to criticize the government and promote it being overthrown through peaceful means. Once you cross the line and support violent means, then your freedom needs to be curtailed. Supporting ISIS is supporting violence, so yes he should be arrested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Then you start getting into levels of ignorance. If you banned everything that got some ignorant git to react, no-one would ever say anything. Stop the ingnoramuses, not the speech. Now back to reality. We know you can't do that. We know that this individual and his sermons and speeches and web sites are causing people to attack other people. You feel we should just let him continue while putting armed guards around every Jewish school and temple in hopes of catching his followers in the act? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Now back to reality. We know you can't do that. We know that this individual and his sermons and speeches and web sites are causing people to attack other people. You feel we should just let him continue while putting armed guards around every Jewish school and temple in hopes of catching his followers in the act? Bollocks to your reality. People can be as hate filled as they wish to be. They can express that hatred if they want. If other people are so stupid as to act on it then that's what laws are for. I'm not going to advocate putting padlocks on people's thoughts and views because of some impressionable idiots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) Bollocks to your reality. People can be as hate filled as they wish to be. They can express that hatred if they want. If other people are so stupid as to act on it then that's what laws are for. I'm not going to advocate putting padlocks on people's thoughts and views because of some impressionable idiots. Unfortunately, there's that reality thing, again, which interferes with your nice theoretical freedom approach. And I'm not going to have people getting stabbed and blown up because some charismatic scumbag is out preaching hatred all day long. Edited August 19, 2016 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 And I'm not going to have people getting stabbed and blown up because some charismatic scumbag is out preaching hatred all day long.Good thing Argus isn't charismatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 I find it ironic that we are discussing freedom of speech on a web site which greatly restricts what you may post. Should the freedom of speech include calling people who state racist views as "racists"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 I find it ironic that we are discussing freedom of speech on a web site which greatly restricts what you may post. Should the freedom of speech include calling people who state racist views as "racists"? It should even include those who call people with whom they have no cogent argument racists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) Unfortunately, there's that reality thing, again, which interferes with your nice theoretical freedom approach. And I'm not going to have people getting stabbed and blown up because some charismatic scumbag is out preaching hatred all day long. Well, we could put everyone in a bag, I guess. Edited August 19, 2016 by bcsapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 (edited) I find it ironic that we are discussing freedom of speech on a web site which greatly restricts what you may post. Should the freedom of speech include calling people who state racist views as "racists"? If you like, as long as I can call those who state views which are moronic and simple-minded moronic simpletons. Edited August 20, 2016 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted August 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 That's not what the article you linked says. From the article: Mr Choudary, of Ilford in east London, and Mohammed Rahman, 32, of Whitechapel in east London, were arrested on 25 September last year on suspicion of being members of IS, which is a proscribed organisation. So the arrest seems to be for membership in a terrorist organization, not free speech. Unless that was talking about a previous arrest, from which he was later freed and now he was arrested again? It's not clear from the article. In either case, the person in question seems to be a member of various terrorist organizations (including al-Muhajiroun as well as IS). Sorry, I had read many articles reporting the story that day and just perused the one I actually posted. My bad. "But he was finally snared by police for inciting support for ISIS in a series of online lectures." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3732890/Anjem-Choudary-GUILTY-inciting-support-ISIS.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted August 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 So,inciting hatred via speech is clearly not permissible, but "all" Ernst Zundel did was state the holocaust didn't happen. Not enough to be jailed in Canada imo, yet he was. In Germany where he was jailed for 5 years for this there is a law specific to this. http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Zundel/Weber200903.html https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2010/03/01/holocaust_denier_ernst_zundel_released_from_prison.html Does this mean we are less tolerant of free speech? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 If you like, as long as I can call those who state views which are moronic and simple-minded moronic simpletons. Certainly, they should be allowed the prestige of being on the right side of issues. It would be like members of the KKK with their hoods on cursing immigrants for daring to enter Canada. But be careful, when you call someone moronic and a simple minded simpleton you are saying that YOU think that person is moronic and simple-minded simpleton. When others know the individual who are are disparaging is not what you say they are, does that then make YOU the moronic and simple-minded simpleton? That happens often on this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 But be careful, when you call someone moronic and a simple minded simpleton you are saying that YOU think that person is moronic and simple-minded simpleton. Oh, I'm pretty sure most of them on this site are basically self-identified to most posters do to their own idiotic behaviour and expressed beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 Oh, I'm pretty sure most of them on this site are basically self-identified to most posters do to their own idiotic behaviour and expressed beliefs. I am convinced that you really believe that. If you did not then, you would not post those insults. As I have suggested in the past - you do not speak for anybody but yourself. For you to have the arrogance of speaking for "most posters" perhaps indicates how isolated your views are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 ....Does this mean we are less tolerant of free speech? . Yes....clearly the Canadian fascists wanted to silence Zundel. Amazing..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 So,inciting hatred via speech is clearly not permissible, but "all" Ernst Zundel did was state the holocaust didn't happen. Not enough to be jailed in Canada imo, yet he was. In Germany where he was jailed for 5 years for this there is a law specific to this. http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Zundel/Weber200903.html https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2010/03/01/holocaust_denier_ernst_zundel_released_from_prison.html Does this mean we are less tolerant of free speech? . Jail for denying the holocaust is ridiculous, in my opinion. Anywhere in the world. The Germans ought to know better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 Jail for denying the holocaust is ridiculous, in my opinion. Anywhere in the world. The Germans ought to know better. I wonder WHY there is never any doubt re: the Battle of Midway occurring. Or Coral Sea. There is FAR less evidence. Are we going to take the mere word of Japanese and American naval aviators who CLAIM they survived the battle? Liars... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 I wonder WHY there is never any doubt re: the Battle of Midway occurring. Or Coral Sea. There is FAR less evidence. Are we going to take the mere word of Japanese and American naval aviators who CLAIM they survived the battle? Liars... Exactly. Ridicule ought to be the only response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 What if there is a teacher teaching such ridiculous ideas in a classroom? Shall ridicule still be the answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) What if there is a teacher teaching such ridiculous ideas in a classroom? Shall ridicule still be the answer? A teacher teaches what curriculum is developed by their particular board. If he/she does no, then report them and they will be dealt with in appropriate manner. If you do not like what they are teaching and it is the curriculum to be taught then complain to the board and trustees. Edited August 23, 2016 by Big Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 What if there is a teacher teaching such ridiculous ideas in a classroom? Shall ridicule still be the answer? Obviously not. You already knew the answer to that question so why did you ask it? What if it's not a teacher? Jailtime? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freekundli Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 Given the UK is at war with the Islamic State, albeit undeclared, it was treason. Shoot him. http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/war-isis-british-special-forces-ambushed-by-islamic-state-suicide-bombers-libya-1557689 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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