DogOnPorch Posted August 28, 2016 Report Posted August 28, 2016 Yeah, but the words don't matter. Most sane God fearing people know the actual words were written by non-Gods and have been bastardized by a continuous stream of non-Gods over the years. So I have no problem with people who don't believe it all still holding out the hope of a place in Paradise. Whatever turns one's crank, as long as one doesn't try to affect anyone else's crank. The problem is with those who believe it all... Unfortunately for us Atheists, the Quran has that covered. It is the VERY word of Allah as dictated to Muhammad. No corrections allowed. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest Posted August 28, 2016 Report Posted August 28, 2016 (edited) Unfortunately for us Atheists, the Quran has that covered. It is the VERY word of Allah as dictated to Muhammad. No corrections allowed. But as we know, there was no Allah. So the whole thing is bullshit. Just like the Bible and the Torah, and any other religious text. But the only bastards are those who take any of them literally. I personally believe that religious people, generally, deep down, know this. That's why they try to do well on Earth. Let's face it, if I truly believed in an eternity in Paradise, I would spend the fleeting instant on this plane of existence washing the feet of Lepers, to make sure of my progression. Edited August 28, 2016 by bcsapper Quote
DogOnPorch Posted August 28, 2016 Report Posted August 28, 2016 But as we know, there was no Allah. So the whole thing is bullshit. Just like the Bible and the Torah, and any other religious text. But the only bastards are those who take any of them literally. I personally believe that religious people, generally, deep down, know this. That's why they try to do well on Earth. Let's face it, if I truly believed in an eternity in Paradise, I would spend the fleeting instant on this plane of existence washing the feet of Lepers, to make sure of my progression. Again, what you and I find completely incredulous, folks who actually believe in their religion find to be the truth. It's not like you or I could even walk a mile in a believer's shoes. Our minds won't let us. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest Posted August 28, 2016 Report Posted August 28, 2016 Again, what you and I find completely incredulous, folks who actually believe in their religion find to be the truth. It's not like you or I could even walk a mile in a believer's shoes. Our minds won't let us. True, but those are the people to be feared and hated. The rest, those who just pay lip service in case there is a God, after all, make up most religious people on the planet, and are more to be pitied than scolded. Quote
dre Posted August 28, 2016 Report Posted August 28, 2016 Unfortunately for us Atheists, the Quran has that covered. It is the VERY word of Allah as dictated to Muhammad. No corrections allowed. But just like with the more extreme words in the Christian bible, almost no muslims follow those words. Like you quote about "slaughtering non muslims". 99.9% of Muslims don't slaughter anybody at all. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted August 28, 2016 Report Posted August 28, 2016 True, but those are the people to be feared and hated. The rest, those who just pay lip service in case there is a God, after all, make up most religious people on the planet, and are more to be pitied than scolded. Well, at it's height the Gestapo only had 5,000 field agents and 30,000 typists. Yet they sure got the job done. But just like with the more extreme words in the Christian bible, almost no muslims follow those words. Like you quote about "slaughtering non muslims". 99.9% of Muslims don't slaughter anybody at all. As we've already discussed, then their motivation is political Islam. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Argus Posted August 28, 2016 Author Report Posted August 28, 2016 They don't encourage it. By defending it you are encouraging them to continue. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dre Posted August 28, 2016 Report Posted August 28, 2016 As we've already discussed, then their motivation is political Islam. No.. You just don't like these people so you scurry around trying find post-hoc justification for your hatred. There's really nothing more in play here than that, sorry. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dialamah Posted August 28, 2016 Report Posted August 28, 2016 I've made no such claims. Individual Muslims might or might not hold splendid qualities. What Islam says on the subject is very firm, however. I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah. ---Muhammad Sahih Bukhari (8:387) It is not for individual Muslims to explain away what Allah commands. Islam also teaches: "There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned" (Qu'ran 2:56). "The Truth is from your Lord; so let him who please believe and let him who please disbelieve." (Qu'ran 18:29) "And obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away, the duty of Our Messenger is only to deliver the message clearly" (Qu'ran 64.12) "Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything away from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the day of Judgment". (Abu Dawud). That is the Islam my sister's family follows along with the majority of Muslims world-wide; it is not for them to explain away what Allah commands. Quote
dre Posted August 28, 2016 Report Posted August 28, 2016 By defending it you are encouraging them to continue. I'm not defending anything anything at all. And your'e the one that's unwittingly encouraging it. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Argus Posted August 28, 2016 Author Report Posted August 28, 2016 (edited) There are horrible things that happen in the Middle East. There are horrible things that happen in Canada. We, as a culture, do not hold the moral high ground; our sins are merely different from theirs. Yes, that is the typical progressive defense of the indefensible. Beliefs which you would condemn without reservation if held by western men you blithely shrug off by saying "Well, my brother in law is nice", and denying we have a more enlightened, sophisticated and advanced cultural value system than theirs, or that women are so much better off here in almost every imaginable way. Well guess what, we DO indeed hold the moral high ground here. Simply the fact that nobody here is willing to execute people for wishing to leave their religion or for blasphemy, while almost all Egyptians support it, does that much for us. Let's not even get into the slavery which the Egyptians still accept. Edited August 28, 2016 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted August 28, 2016 Report Posted August 28, 2016 They don't encourage it. And again that doesn't come from progressivism. Its a libertarian trait that exists both on the left and the right in people that strongly value individual liberty. The rest of your post is just disjointed nonsense."progressive embrace brutal, viscous misogyny" has to be the stupidest thing anyone has ever said on this forum and if Argus actually believes it, he's a far bigger idiot than the so-called progressives he's constantly calling morons. Quote
eyeball Posted August 28, 2016 Report Posted August 28, 2016 (edited) True, but those are the people to be feared and hated. The rest, those who just pay lip service in case there is a God, after all, make up most religious people on the planet, and are more to be pitied than scolded.Isn't the real issue in this thread however progressives and the conservative dogma that states progressives think like theists when it comes to praising/defending/apologizing etc for Islam? This dogma makes conservatism appear as stupid and inflexible as religion. It's the same lip service to conservative group-think that's been rearing its stupid head for years in virtually every topic that's discussed on this and countless other forums. Edited August 28, 2016 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Argus Posted August 28, 2016 Author Report Posted August 28, 2016 I guess you have no experience beyond your own local neighbourhood. I suggest you visit the Orthodox Jews in Toronto (Bathurst/Lawrence area), or the many other immigrant communities around our land (Amish, Hutterite, Mennonite, etc.). You are speaking of religious people, as opposed to nationalities. I agree that strongly religious people will resist assimilation and preserve their religious values. That's why I'm opposed to bringing in so many Muslims given the retrograde cultural views of Islam practiced by Muslims. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dre Posted August 28, 2016 Report Posted August 28, 2016 Yes, that is the typical progressive defense of the indefensible. Beliefs which you would condemn without reservation if held by western men you blithely shrug off by saying "Well, my brother in law is nice", and denying we have a more enlightened, sophisticated and advanced cultural value system than theirs, or that women are so much better off here in almost every imaginable way. Well guess what, we DO indeed hold the moral high ground here. Simply the fact that nobody here is willing to execute people for wishing to leave their religion or for blasphemy, while almost all Egyptians support it, does that much for us. That belief is not progressive in nature at all. Its a libertarian believe held by people all over the political spectrum, normally by people that place a high value on individual liberty. Well guess what, we DO indeed hold the moral high ground here. Simply the fact that nobody here is willing to execute people for wishing to leave their religion or for blasphemy, while almost all Egyptians support it, does that much for us. Sure as long as you don't support the killing of hundreds of thousands of muslims by predominantly Christian western armies! That would pretty much surrender any "moral high ground" you might have. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted August 28, 2016 Report Posted August 28, 2016 No.. You just don't like these people so you scurry around trying find post-hoc justification for your hatred. There's really nothing more in play here than that, sorry. Strong accusation. Where did I say I hate anybody? Or do you just throw around personal attacks when you have nothing left? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Argus Posted August 28, 2016 Author Report Posted August 28, 2016 Sure it is. Individual Muslims can do what the hell they want, and Allah can kiss their arses. And be beaten, imprisoned or executed for doing so in much of the Muslim world. The question, then, is whether the Muslims who come to Canada, where there is no official sanction for disobeying the tenets of Islam, will adapt more to the modern world and modern, western cultural views than Muslims in "the old country", and to a large extent that depends on community and peer approval/disapproval. Someone just brought up ultra-orthodox Jews. That is not a good precedent. The Haradi have not abandoned the primitive social views of their religion despite there being no official sanction for doing so. Those values are enforced by the community which will exclude and shun any member who refuses to follow them. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 28, 2016 Author Report Posted August 28, 2016 But as we know, there was no Allah. So the whole thing is bullshit You realize that just saying that will likely lead you to arrest in the Muslim world, and likely get you physically attacked by whatever Muslim you say it to? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 28, 2016 Author Report Posted August 28, 2016 True, but those are the people to be feared and hated. The rest, those who just pay lip service in case there is a God, after all, make up most religious people on the planet, and are more to be pitied than scolded. If over 90% of a society agree with a pollster that blasphemers and apostates should be executed, who is this 'the rest'? But just like with the more extreme words in the Christian bible, almost no muslims follow those words. Like you quote about "slaughtering non muslims". 99.9% of Muslims don't slaughter anybody at all. That doesn't mean they don't support their governments doing it. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 28, 2016 Author Report Posted August 28, 2016 I'm not defending anything anything at all. And your'e the one that's unwittingly encouraging it. Really? How so? In the West, Islamic extremism seems to be highest in the lands of kindly, accepting progressives, and lowest, in the lands of stern melting pot advocates like in North America Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
DogOnPorch Posted August 28, 2016 Report Posted August 28, 2016 Islam also teaches: "There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned" (Qu'ran 2:56)....etc. Are you aware of what abrogation in the Quran is all about? These would be early verses that have been trumped by later verses. The Verse of the Sword trumps 2:256 (you're source is incorrect). Could you take a few moments to explain the verse of the sword for me? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dialamah Posted August 28, 2016 Report Posted August 28, 2016 Are you aware of what abrogation in the Quran is all about? These would be early verses that have been trumped by later verses. The Verse of the Sword trumps 2:256 (you're source is incorrect). Could you take a few moments to explain the verse of the sword for me? I'm well aware of abrogation, a *controversial* aspect of Islam. Tell me, if people who've grown up in the Islamic faitth do not believe they must wage war on unbelievers, why should you , a Westerner, declare them wrong? Do you wish to support violence, terrorism and war? Do you wish to convince people that war must be waged on Islam? Do you want to ensure young people hear and follow your interpretation if Islam and join ISIS, rather than the the interpretation that allows them to live peacefully with others in Canada? Just what is your agenda in pushing an intolerant warlike interpretation of Islam, and deny an equally valid peaceful and tolerant interpretation? People choose what they want to believe regardless of evidence or fact. You choose to believe that Islam preaches war on unbelievers and apostates, I consider you the same ilk as ISIS. My brother-in-law chooses to believe that Islam preaches peace and tolerance, I hold him in the same regard I hold Canadian fundamentalist Christians. Quote
Argus Posted August 28, 2016 Author Report Posted August 28, 2016 (edited) I'm well aware of abrogation, a *controversial* aspect of Islam. Tell me, if people who've grown up in the Islamic faitth do not believe they must wage war on unbelievers, why should you , a Westerner, declare them wrong? Because actions speak louder than words? This continuing progressive nonsense which suggests it is those who distrust their barbaric social practices which inspires Muslims to join ISIS seems really weird given that most of those who join ISIS come from Musilm countries - where one presumes there are few 'Islamophobes' driving them on. Why are Tunisians joining ISIS in such numbers? Why is Muslim extremism growing in Malaysia and Indonesia? Because conservatives in the west say bad things about them? Edited August 28, 2016 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dre Posted August 28, 2016 Report Posted August 28, 2016 Really? How so? In the West, Islamic extremism seems to be highest in the lands of kindly, accepting progressives, and lowest, in the lands of stern melting pot advocates like in North America Actually Muslims in the west are much less extreme than in the countries they came from. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
WestCoastRunner Posted August 28, 2016 Report Posted August 28, 2016 (edited) Actually Muslims in the west are much less extreme than in the countries they came from.Cite?Actually I was asking for a cite from argus. I'll repost Edited August 28, 2016 by WestCoastRunner Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
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