Police Officers Shot in ----------------

[bush_cheney2004]

Does the dictum resistance is futile come before or after your 2nd Amendment rights?

Neither...that phrase comes from Hollywood.

[eyeball]

Where does it say get with the program or get legally beaten?

[bush_cheney2004]

Where does it say get with the program or get legally beaten?

For U.S. jurisdictions, Supreme Court ruling in Graham v. Connor (1989).

[eyeball]

So after, after all.

[Moonlight Graham]

Define "a lot". My perception is there are very, very few black people or others who have 'done nothing' but been killed by police.

As I wrote earlier, there are at best one case I'm aware of where a person who was not a criminal and not in any way resisting arrest were killed by police. That is the Castile case.

Even if you put together all the cases of Blacks killed by police who were not armed it's still a handful compared to the tremendous number of interactions between the 750,000 police and the Black community in the US in a given year.

I agree, but I don't see that as happening as much as you seem to think it does. Certainly none of the recent cases of police shooting has involved police 'power tripping'.

Most incidents involve excessive use of force. Like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb1WywIpUtY and most incidents aren't caught on camera. The large majority of police interactions are as you say lawful and the police are just doing their job. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem that needs to be fixed. Cops aren't trained and retrained properly, and their oversight and punishments for unlawful activity are a joke. You give people a lot of power and they'll abuse it if they can, cops are no different.

[kimmy]

The police enforce the laws we create. Would you have them do otherwise? Most of those they 'intimidate' are criminals. If you're terrorized by police it's because you're a criminal or fundamentally stupid.

Do the police enforce the laws when the crimes are committed by their own co-workers?

How many "bad apples" were involved in the death of Robert Dziekanski, Argus? Just one? Tazer-enthusiast Kwesi Millington?

What about the officers who were with him, and lied under oath to protect him? What about the RCMP communications officer who willfully issued a continuing series of misleading statements to the public about the incident? What about the RCMP investigators who whitewashed the whole thing? The RCMP people who tried to suppress the video? The RCMP people who got caught withholding damning email from the Braidwood inquiry? Thinking back on that debacle, the obvious message is that it's not just one bad apple, it's a culture of bad apples.

In my part of the world we had this incident ...watch the video and see how many "bad apples" you can count. Just one, right? A guy who delivered a soccer-kick right to the face of a fully-compliant suspect. Well, how about the female officer? She watched the whole thing... she must have said something about that in her report, right? Nope. This only came to public attention because a local reporter videotaped it. How about the RCMP communications people, who issued a series of defamatory statements about the victim? How about the officer's supervisors? After this incident blew up in public and the RCMP had no choice but to act, it was revealed that this particular officer had several other excessive force complaints against him, none of which had been investigated, and the commander conceded that the only reason this one was any different was that he got caught red-handed. Again, while RCMP supporters would claim it's just one bad apple, the truth is

This "one bad apple" stuff doesn't fly anymore. It's a brotherhood of bad apples who'll go to any length to protect each other. They've forfeited the right to the benefit of the doubt. They simply can't be trusted.

-k

[Moonlight Graham]

You go Kimmy. I've watched a zillion youtube videos of cops abusing their authority. Some that clearly don't even know the law. Some that likely know it but will abuse it. You watch something like the Rodney King beating and you have no less than 13 cops standing around either beating him or watching and doing nothing (which is also a crime). A few bad apples my ass. And the system is designed to defend cops and get them off charges, especially if there's no media attention on it.

What is needed is an armed force of independent auditors trained in law that can go wherever they want, follow cops around, search throughout police stations and cop cars etc just to help keep cops honest.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if every time a cop pulled you over you also had a lawyer on the scene there to protect you and be a witness? Filming everything. I'd be so much more comfortable.

[Peter F]

It's a brotherhood of bad apples who'll go to any length to protect each other. They've forfeited the right to the benefit of the doubt. They simply can't be trusted.

Exactly.

[jacee]

This "one bad apple" stuff doesn't fly anymore. It's a brotherhood of bad apples who'll go to any length to protect each other. They've forfeited the right to the benefit of the doubt. They simply can't be trusted.

-k

Quote of the day week month year, kimmy.

?

[Wilber]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAu44wVgb58

Sheriff Clark on CNN. Another side.

[Wilber]

Quote of the day week month year, kimmy.

So I guess we should just send them all home and fend for ourselves.

[GostHacked]

You go Kimmy. I've watched a zillion youtube videos of cops abusing their authority. Some that clearly don't even know the law. Some that likely know it but will abuse it. You watch something like the Rodney King beating and you have no less than 13 cops standing around either beating him or watching and doing nothing (which is also a crime). A few bad apples my ass. And the system is designed to defend cops and get them off charges, especially if there's no media attention on it.

What is needed is an armed force of independent auditors trained in law that can go wherever they want, follow cops around, search throughout police stations and cop cars etc just to help keep cops honest.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if every time a cop pulled you over you also had a lawyer on the scene there to protect you and be a witness? Filming everything. I'd be so much more comfortable.

I'll mention Kelly Thomas, again and the few bad apples involved in his beating. One of the more tragic stories I have heard.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2014/0114/Kelly-Thomas-case-why-police-were-acquitted-in-killing-of-homeless-man-video

There were about 5-10 cops involved in his beating. I don't think any charges stuck.

[Argus]

Yes, beat the shyte out of someone while yelling "stop resisting" and you have your excuse.

I don't deny this occasionally happens but we're talking about unnecessary killing here. Unless you're suggesting police deliberately instigate resistance or pretend there's resistence so they can kill Black men - because they want to kill black men - I don't understand your attempted point.

There are two problems with police.

The training - assume they want to kill you so kill them first

The thin blue line - support the dirty cop, always

This is simplistic. Certainly one of the problems with police training is that it deliberately seeks to instill more fear and wariness in them than is warranted by attacks on police. But there are many other problems. The fact they recieve so little hand to hand combat training, and no training in how to deal with weapons like pipes or knives except to use firearms is another problem. That they are taught to always take immediate command of a situation, and that they're given very little training in calming things down is another big fail.

The institutional mindset of the 'brotherhood' is universal to military organizations.

[Argus]

Most incidents involve excessive use of force.

That's crap. And showing individual instances of abuse is not going to change the facts.

[Argus]

Do the police enforce the laws when the crimes are committed by their own co-workers?

Sometimes, but not always. I have already stated that I support outside investigation of police wrongdoing. In fact, I think my last comment was with regard to Ontario's Special Investigation Unit. I said any police officer who fails to cooperate with them should be instantly fired. You might be surprised to learn they usually refuse to testify or provide notes to the investigators. I'm astonished this doesn't get them booted out.

How many "bad apples" were involved in the death of Robert Dziekanski, Argus? Just one? Tazer-enthusiast Kwesi Millington?

Again, I'm on record as saying all four should have been fired, and police training in the use of tazers needs to be changed. You seem to be operating under the illusion I'm an unapologetic supporter of police. I'm not. I've written here on many occasions about the need to discipline police, including the RCMP.

Its easy, when you're a cop, to fall prey to the 'Us against them' mindset. It's also easy, when your job calls for you to lay hands on people, to get physical with people, as a routine matter, to lose sight of how ordinary people perceive the use of force, and to have your own standards for what constitutes violence change over time. Constant training is needed with this, and again I've written on a number of occasions that police training needs to be changed.

But this is a conversation specifically on police shooting people, and the statistics on that are clear in that almost everyone the police shoot had a weapon. I still think police resort to firearms too quickly in too many cases, but there's no evidence this is particularly race-based. And to repeat the assertion which seems to have caught your attention, I've seen very little to indicate police shoot people who aren't doing anything in the way of criminal actions or resisting arrest.

[Argus]

Quote of the day week month year, kimmy.

Oh yeah. Let's disband the police. I'm sure your life will be safer, then. No doubt all those people who have been 'intimidated' by police and 'abused' will do their level best to ensure society runs along smoothly.

[Argus]

You go Kimmy. I've watched a zillion youtube videos of cops abusing their authority.

And I've watched a zillion youtube videos of cops doing their jobs, and being abused by scum, the scum you generally don't encounter much because the police are taking care of the problem you are incapable of dealing with on your own.

You remind me of all the whiners because some 15 year old black boy wasn't being considered for a heart transplant because he was scum. Well, the bleeding heart liberals made sure he got his transplant.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ga-teen-donated-heart-dead-crime-spree-cops-article-1.2169324

[cybercoma]

Oh yeah. Let's disband the police.

kimmy, do you want to disband the police? That's what Argus says you're arguing.

[jacee]

So I guess we should just send them all home and fend for ourselves.

Well ... if you think cops will never be capable of policing without excessive force or killing innocent people ... I guess that's the answer.

Personally, I think police need better recruiting (eg, screening out NeoNazis for starters), better training (how NOT to rely on a gun; how to arrest someone without excessive force, etc), and better accountability (charge and fire officers who commit crimes against people, AND cops who witness and coverup their colleagues crimes against people).

.

[Wilber]

Well ... if you think cops will never be capable of policing without excessive force or killing innocent people ... I guess that's the answer.

Personally, I think police need better recruiting (eg, screening out NeoNazis for starters), better training (how NOT to rely on a gun; how to arrest someone without excessive force, etc), and better accountability (charge and fire officers who commit crimes against people, AND cops who witness and coverup their colleagues crimes against people).

.

You really have no clue how police officers in this country are selected.

[Argus]

You really have no clue how police officers in this country are selected.

She's looking for kindly, gentle, sensitive souls, preferably gay or female, who will smile a lot - and then run away in a panic the instant anyone gets violent with them.

[Wilber]

She's looking for kindly, gentle, sensitive souls, preferably gay or female, who will smile a lot - and then run away in a panic the instant anyone gets violent with them.

I guess things vary a bit between police forces. Ours requires life experience and post secondary education, the average age of recruits is over 30. Our Constitution and Charter requires police officers to be very knowledgeable when it comes to the law, otherwise they would never get a charge laid, let alone a conviction.

[Rue]

You go Kimmy. I've watched a zillion youtube videos of cops abusing their authority. Some that clearly don't even know the law. Some that likely know it but will abuse it. You watch something like the Rodney King beating and you have no less than 13 cops standing around either beating him or watching and doing nothing (which is also a crime). A few bad apples my ass. And the system is designed to defend cops and get them off charges, especially if there's no media attention on it.

What is needed is an armed force of independent auditors trained in law that can go wherever they want, follow cops around, search throughout police stations and cop cars etc just to help keep cops honest.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if every time a cop pulled you over you also had a lawyer on the scene there to protect you and be a witness? Filming everything. I'd be so much more comfortable.

A zillion? Really? Seriously how many have you seen. If you take a breath not a zillion, not a million, not even a hundred. Compared to the total number of police officers there are out there, are you prepared to say what you've seen is proof of wide spread abuse? Come on. Yah I have seen tapes like you on t.v. Not a zillion but sure quite a view. You think they accurately depict all police officers? Really?

They no doubt leave a lasting and negative impression and one that causes you to suspect all police but let me switch that around. Do you blame all

black people and call them all violent and criminal because you see reports of blacks causing crimes in the news?

Well? You'd be the first to say no. You'd call it racism. You'd be the first to argue that blaming all Muslims as terrorists for the actions of Muslim terrorists is unfair. Yet you do it with police, and when I say you, not just you, all of us.

We jump at negative depictions of police to smeer them all is my point and that is as bigoted as blaming all blacks and depicting them all as

violent criminals or all Muslims as terrorists.

More to the point how many positive newsn stories of police have you seen on the news? Please don't tell me they don't exist. Problem is negative stories

sell more than positive ones. I would dare say there are as many positive as there are negative stories of police hey maybe even more positive stories, how would you or I know?

You think the press is not selective as to what it presents?

You think we all do not negatively stereotype police for the actions of a few cops? I argue we do.

So sorry, zillions no.

Sure there are bad cops but I am not prepared to sweep all cops under the carpet. Its unfair to the good ones. I've worked with both.

I am not about to turn my back on good cops whose reputations are smeered simply because they wear a uniform.

Too many people are smeering cops with bigoted stereotypes, the very kind of bigoted stereotypes they won't want to see made of blacks or anyone else

so I argue, cops are no different than blacks or any other visible minority. Instead of skin colour its the colour and appearance of their badge.

It aint right calling all blacks criminals, for the same reason it aint right calling all cops criminals.

Not all black people are innocent. Not all cops are innocent. Both have good and bad people within their collective groups.

[Rue]

I guess things vary a bit between police forces. Ours requires life experience and post secondary education, the average age of recruits is over 30. Our Constitution and Charter requires police officers to be very knowledgeable when it comes to the law, otherwise they would never get a charge laid, let alone a conviction.

Really?

Here's the thing. There are many ways to become a police officer in Canada. The RCMP has its own recruiting process. Large city police forces and provincial police forces have their own recruiting processes. Smaller towns and villages depend on police colleges like he one in Alymer, Ontario.

Some very small towns have surprisingly slack recruiting standards.

Canada actually doesn't have unified recruiting processes. Usually they have a psychological and physical screening test and the equivalent of boot camp followed by specific training in hand to hand combat and firing of guns and some courses on law and police procedures but you'd be surprised how lacking in uniformity across the country the training may be.

In the US its much more complex as there are far more levels of policing. You can have town police, then district sheriffs, then state police then federal agencies. You can have as many as 5 10 jurisdictions of police enforcement all overlapping and the training of all of them can vary.

Actually someone did a survey and former US Marines which should surprise no one, tend to be popular as police recruits and Canadian soldiers who were military police find it an asset when seeking a police job.

That said, police forces now across the US and Canada have great pressure to hire visible minorities, women, gays. They have pressure from quotas to fill and this causes some to claim standards are being bent to accommodate targeted minorities.

That said, there are some ethnic communities known for their politce military tradition For example the Siekhs. They have a history of serving in the armed forces and in police and so its a lot easier finding a Siekh to recruit than say a Chinese or Japanese individual whose cultures frown on police service.

Its not easy trying to recruit people from certain minorities. In terms of blacks, traditionally black police in Canada come from the West Indies not Canadian born blacks.. Now I am making generalities of course, but there are patterns of minority behaviour that make it hard

to recruit certain minorities because of bad experiences in the countries where the people come from or because they are young black men in Canada whose interaction with police has been negative.

The average age of police recruits depends on the region one is in. Most police forces ideally want a young person in peek physical shape in their early twenties to train or military vets.

That said where there is a lot of discussion is whether police psychological screening tests are detecting the kind of personalities

that would abuse power or show racist or bigoted tendencies.

Psychometric testing does not do a good job in that Its easy for someone of questionable ethical character to lie their way through the testing.

As well there is a reluctance to heavily screen out minorities for fear it would look discriminatory.

The problem today is people want police not just to be police but at the same time, rabbias, ministers, mullahs, priests, social workers, teachers, clairvoyants, psychics, people with tender feelings that they turn on and off, superhuman able to shoot people in the heat of the moment in their toes, etc.

We've loaded expectations onto police as we have teachers, nurses in hospitals, social workers, people in crisis containment positions. We expect a lot rom them and our expectations are limitless in demand.

The fact is training is always in need of improving but some expectations many of us have are just not realistic. Police are humans and humans are not perfect. They make mistakes. When going from calm and mundane to suddenly crisis mode where lives are on the line, their bodies have to adjust from one level to the next often in seconds. That adjustment is not easy for the human body to go from sedentary to extreme adrenalin riush hyper-vigilance and people do not get that. Nor do they get that most problems with police come about when a citizen is armed or appears to be armed.

People do not understand a basic common sense rule which is, when confronted by a police officer, stay calm-the calmer you are, the more likjely even the grouchiest and gruff of police will ease up.

A lot of people regardless of their skin colour don't like authority or being told what to do and that can cause friction with the best trained of police.

I say to young kids I have given talks to, yell at a cop, he'll probably arrest you. Stay very calm, and say very little other than show him your id and say yes sir, no sir, you will defuse him and you'd be surprised how they change in approach.

I say to people as a lawyer, if you think a cop is out of line, stay calm. Take down his badge no, and remain calm. Its your word against his unless you have witnesses. Stay calm. Get your witnesses and put in chronological order what happened.

On the other hand spit, swear, get too close to a cop's face, go for your pocket fast, swear at them, uh yah its gonna cause a problem and it doesn't matter how brown or black or white you are its the resistance that triggers the questionable behaviour.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Rue

[Wilber]

All non RCMP municipal police forces (and Band Police) in BC train together in mixed classes at the Justice Institute in Burnaby and their recruiting methods are very similar. As well as what I stated in my post, there is psychological and physical screening done by the individual departments and again by the J.I. before they are accepted for training. References, friends and relatives of prospective candidates are also interviewed before they are accepted.

No system is perfect and in spite of all that, the odd one still gets through that shouldn't.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Wilber